John Kennedy on Art

[fskimospy]

I did know the history of it - I'm the one that linked to it in the first place, if you can think back that far. I never told them to stop the pageant, nor did I claim that its continuation was bigoted. I only pointed out that it is incorrect to claim that continuing to host a black-only pageant while railing against a white-only pageant is contradictory since the conditions under which the black-only pageant might be assumed as a legitimate response to discrimination is long past. None of the contestants in the MBA pageant were even born before the first black contestant competed in the Miss America pageant. Your claims here are as hollow as people in South Carolina, who claim that flying the rebel flag is "Heritage, not hate!" It's a legacy of something which ended a while back and should probably be let go at this point.

No. The Confederacy was explicitly a race based slave state. Celebrating a race based slave state will always carry the stigma of racism and hatred with it. Comparing white racists and historical revisionism with people overcoming racism is pretty horrendously shitty of you.

As I already pointed out, a pageant created to give people who are discriminated against a voice does not have to stop when you decide that they aren't discriminated against enough to merit one. A whites only pageant would be made explicitly to discriminate, and that's why one would be bigoted and the other not.

You can't seriously be this dense.

 

[BoberFett]

Craig loves dynasties?

And apparently the Ten Commandments on city hall also.

 

[BoberFett]

As soon as art is bought and paid for by the Government, then it no longer posseses the impact of art.

Despite his posting methods, I have to agree with Zork here. Government art is no more relevant than corporate art.

 

[daishi5]

No. The Confederacy was explicitly a race based slave state. Celebrating a race based slave state will always carry the stigma of racism and hatred with it. Comparing white racists and historical revisionism with people overcoming racism is pretty horrendously shitty of you.

As I already pointed out, a pageant created to give people who are discriminated against a voice does not have to stop when you decide that they aren't discriminated against enough to merit one. A whites only pageant would be made explicitly to discriminate, and that's why one would be bigoted and the other not.

You can't seriously be this dense.

a few quick questions then. Do they discriminate against all people who are not white, but also not black, for example if they don't allow a mexican to join. If the pageant was created because the White people would not allow them in to Miss USA, doesn't it seem a bit unfair that they set up a second form of "only our color pageant?" If it was not racist, when it was set up, does that protect it from becoming racist because of a pure founding and history? If it can become racist, what are the critical differences in the pageants behavior now, from how it would behave if it were acting in a racist fashion?

 

[Throckmorton]

a few quick questions then. Do they discriminate against all people who are not white, but also not black, for example if they don't allow a mexican to join. If the pageant was created because the White people would not allow them in to Miss USA, doesn't it seem a bit unfair that they set up a second form of "only our color pageant?" If it was not racist, when it was set up, does that protect it from becoming racist because of a pure founding and history? If it can become racist, what are the critical differences in the pageants behavior now, from how it would behave if it were acting in a racist fashion?

They're sexist because it's MISS and not "miss/mister"

 

[fskimospy]

a few quick questions then. Do they discriminate against all people who are not white, but also not black, for example if they don't allow a mexican to join. If the pageant was created because the White people would not allow them in to Miss USA, doesn't it seem a bit unfair that they set up a second form of "only our color pageant?" If it was not racist, when it was set up, does that protect it from becoming racist because of a pure founding and history? If it can become racist, what are the critical differences in the pageants behavior now, from how it would behave if it were acting in a racist fashion?

Are you people serious? The poor discriminated against white people are out in force today.

The pageant was a protest specifically against US anti-black racism, it is quite reasonable to have it involve black people only, because that was the entire point, to highlight the lack of black people in the regular one.

It certainly could become racist, but the mere continuance of its existence despite our good friend Cyclowizard's decision that we're past all that racism business now does not make it bigoted.

For the pageant to behave in a racist fashion it would have to base its reasons for being black only on either an ingrained deficiency in other races or a natural superiority of their own. In its current form it does nothing more than celebrate positive aspects of black people, particularly in contrast to the huge negative stereotypes that existed when it was founded and still exist to a lesser extent today.

This discussion is really really stupid, and these are all things you guys already know. You do realize the whole Privilege Denying Dude meme is based around making fun of people for saying obviously idiotic things like the whole Black Miss America and Black History Month thing, right?

 

[Throckmorton]

Abolishing slavery was racist because only black people were freed.

 

[ElFenix]

Despite his posting methods, I have to agree with Zork here. Government art is no more relevant than corporate art.

much of the great art in history was commissioned by government.

 

[CycloWizard]

Are you people serious? The poor discriminated against white people are out in force today.

The pageant was a protest specifically against US anti-black racism, it is quite reasonable to have it involve black people only, because that was the entire point, to highlight the lack of black people in the regular one.

It certainly could become racist, but the mere continuance of its existence despite our good friend Cyclowizard's decision that we're past all that racism business now does not make it bigoted.

For the pageant to behave in a racist fashion it would have to base its reasons for being black only on either an ingrained deficiency in other races or a natural superiority of their own. In its current form it does nothing more than celebrate positive aspects of black people, particularly in contrast to the huge negative stereotypes that existed when it was founded and still exist to a lesser extent today.

This discussion is really really stupid, and these are all things you guys already know. You do realize the whole Privilege Denying Dude meme is based around making fun of people for saying obviously idiotic things like the whole Black Miss America and Black History Month thing, right?

I'm not dense - I see your point of view and reject it. No, my point is that you are perpetuating racism by making race a perpetual issue, specifically to be used as a weapon against the majority.

 

[bamacre]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrmQB38aT5U

 

[fskimospy]

I'm not dense - I see your point of view and reject it. No, my point is that you are perpetuating racism by making race a perpetual issue, specifically to be used as a weapon against the majority.

Clearly race is a weapon used against the majority.

/facepalm

 

[werepossum]

Oh I'm well aware of the definition, which is why I could make my previous post with absolute certainty. But, since you are apparently not aware, a bigot is:

So, can you explain why it's bigoted to have a Miss White America pageant, but not bigoted to have a Miss Black America pageant? My position is that either both are bigoted or neither is bigoted.

When the Miss Black America pageant was started, black women had zero chance of winning Miss America, so it is understandable why it was created. Black women were effectively excluded. It's probably not needed today, but as long as it's a private enterprise, who cares? I try not to judge unless I need to judge, and I try to always support maximum freedom. If the NAALCP wants to have a Miss at-least-this-Black-but-not-that-Black America Pageant for women between 1.4 and 1.7 meters tall, I couldn't care less unless they expect me to pay for it. Yes, it's probably bigoted, but since silly white women have other pageant outlets I'll leave that between the participants/sponsors and G-d.

I'm not dense - I see your point of view and reject it. No, my point is that you are perpetuating racism by making race a perpetual issue, specifically to be used as a weapon against the majority.

This is primarily why racism is still an issue today, and why racism will never be abolished under the progressive movement. We cannot institute government discrimination by race and yet somehow expect racism to magically disappear - to in effect say "It's important that WE discriminate based on skin color, but it's also important that YOU do not." One cannot have a group that must perpetually have special treatment and still have that group considered as equal to those not in that special group.

 

[daishi5]

Are you people serious? The poor discriminated against white people are out in force today.

The pageant was a protest specifically against US anti-black racism, it is quite reasonable to have it involve black people only, because that was the entire point, to highlight the lack of black people in the regular one.

It certainly could become racist, but the mere continuance of its existence despite our good friend Cyclowizard's decision that we're past all that racism business now does not make it bigoted.

For the pageant to behave in a racist fashion it would have to base its reasons for being black only on either an ingrained deficiency in other races or a natural superiority of their own. In its current form it does nothing more than celebrate positive aspects of black people, particularly in contrast to the huge negative stereotypes that existed when it was founded and still exist to a lesser extent today.

This discussion is really really stupid, and these are all things you guys already know. You do realize the whole Privilege Denying Dude meme is based around making fun of people for saying obviously idiotic things like the whole Black Miss America and Black History Month thing, right?

You are making a lot of accusations and insulting me, but you are not really listening. What type of society do you want in our future, one where we are all equal because we all have our own separate things? Separate but equal will never work, I don't care if these "equal" things were started by black people for good causes, it will never end in a truly equal society because we know separate but equal is a fantasy. Our current racial policy is a hell of a lot better than it was, but we are not on a road to true equality, and the only way we are going to get there is when we stop treating people unequally based on the color of their skin. I am not saying that white people are oppressed, but this is not the road to solving our racism.

 

[CycloWizard]

When the Miss Black America pageant was started, black women had zero chance of winning Miss America, so it is understandable why it was created. Black women were effectively excluded. It's probably not needed today, but as long as it's a private enterprise, who cares? I try not to judge unless I need to judge, and I try to always support maximum freedom. If the NAALCP wants to have a Miss at-least-this-Black-but-not-that-Black America Pageant for women between 1.4 and 1.7 meters tall, I couldn't care less unless they expect me to pay for it. Yes, it's probably bigoted, but since silly white women have other pageant outlets I'll leave that between the participants/sponsors and G-d.


This is primarily why racism is still an issue today, and why racism will never be abolished under the progressive movement. We cannot institute government discrimination by race and yet somehow expect racism to magically disappear - to in effect say "It's important that WE discriminate based on skin color, but it's also important that YOU do not." One cannot have a group that must perpetually have special treatment and still have that group considered as equal to those not in that special group.

Exactly the points I was trying to make. I don't care if anyone wants to hold a pageant for Miss Latino America or anything else, as long as it's on their own dime.

 

[werepossum]

You are making a lot of accusations and insulting me, but you are not really listening. What type of society do you want in our future, one where we are all equal because we all have our own separate things? Separate but equal will never work, I don't care if these "equal" things were started by black people for good causes, it will never end in a truly equal society because we know separate but equal is a fantasy. Our current racial policy is a hell of a lot better than it was, but we are not on a road to true equality, and the only way we are going to get there is when we stop treating people unequally based on the color of their skin. I am not saying that white people are oppressed, but this is not the road to solving our racism.

Progressives do not want an end to racism. Racism is simply a tool like any other to divide the populace into groups and thus empower government by playing one group against another. Thus whether or not a policy increases or decreases racism is immaterial; the only important thing is that government be empowered for the good of us all.

 

[fskimospy]

You are making a lot of accusations and insulting me, but you are not really listening. What type of society do you want in our future, one where we are all equal because we all have our own separate things? Separate but equal will never work, I don't care if these "equal" things were started by black people for good causes, it will never end in a truly equal society because we know separate but equal is a fantasy. Our current racial policy is a hell of a lot better than it was, but we are not on a road to true equality, and the only way we are going to get there is when we stop treating people unequally based on the color of their skin. I am not saying that white people are oppressed, but this is not the road to solving our racism.

I'm actually insulting your argument and your questions for the most part.

What you are proposing is a wonderful idea, but it is unfortunately completely untethered from reality. Furthermore the attempt to equate Miss Black America, an event created due to racism with the racism of separate but equal is an absurdity. Having a pageant that's basic idea is 'black people are pretty too' is not contributing to the US's race problem.

Programs that treat people differently based on the color of their skin are direct reactions to pervasive and enduring racism. The idea that programs made to combat the effects of racism are responsible for our continuing racism not only ignores centuries of history, but fails a basic test of temporal ordering. We're racist because we're racist, not because of Miss Black America. I find the idea that we should remove these and hope that the problem just takes care of itself to be hopelessly naive.

 

[Zebo]

Progressives do not want an end to racism. Racism is simply a tool like any other to divide the populace into groups and thus empower government by playing one group against another. Thus whether or not a policy increases or decreases racism is immaterial; the only important thing is that government be empowered for the good of us all.

Heh. Many on left think the right wants division to keep eye off economic ball. It's funny to hear you guys talk sometimes. (I dont know right answer just an observation)

 

[Zebo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrmQB38aT5U

Wanna go mining in the Yukon next summer with me?:biggrin:

Kills a lot of birds and gots gold In Dawson they take gold at the bar. Hoes are nothing to look at but it's 19th century in spades. We don't even have to worry about TSA since you gotta pack everything you need for 2-3 months in on 4x4s (if you want to survive)

 

[Craig234]

Progressives do not want an end to racism. Racism is simply a tool like any other to divide the populace into groups and thus empower government by playing one group against another. Thus whether or not a policy increases or decreases racism is immaterial; the only important thing is that government be empowered for the good of us all.

95% of what's said about liberals here is wrong or lies. I can't remember the other 5%.

The cancer society doesn't want cancer cured. Police don't want to eliminate crime. Peace groups don't want to end war. Environmentalists don't want to end pollution.

Yes, your point is so well made.

 

[JMapleton]

This is a good post but I'm not sure you point about need capitalists. We have them in Spades. They control govt (too big to fail)) Wealth has never been more concentrated. Both corporately and individually in USA history. Driven down main streets and seen boarded up shops replaced by corporate box stores? I understand it's more efficient at first glance but so is offshoring to 70 hour a week slave nations. But you have to add up all costs. Such as disappearing middle class, race to bottom, paying people to sit at home and putting food on their tables in addition to Chinese tables. Huge debt. Civil strife. etc. Cheap is more expensive.

I'll rephrase, we need more working class capitalists.

We need more poor and middle class people to work their asses off saving and investing their money in businesses.

We cannot survive as a country when only the rich and upper middle class produce capitalists and savers. We need blue collar capitalists who save, invest, educate themselves, and act on their plans.

 

[CycloWizard]

95% of what liberals say here is wrong or lies. I can't remember the other 5%.

FFY. How many more times can we work this mindless crap into a single thread?

 

[daishi5]

I'm actually insulting your argument and your questions for the most part.

What you are proposing is a wonderful idea, but it is unfortunately completely untethered from reality. Furthermore the attempt to equate Miss Black America, an event created due to racism with the racism of separate but equal is an absurdity. Having a pageant that's basic idea is 'black people are pretty too' is not contributing to the US's race problem.

Programs that treat people differently based on the color of their skin are direct reactions to pervasive and enduring racism. The idea that programs made to combat the effects of racism are responsible for our continuing racism not only ignores centuries of history, but fails a basic test of temporal ordering. We're racist because we're racist, not because of Miss Black America. I find the idea that we should remove these and hope that the problem just takes care of itself to be hopelessly naive.

Every response you have made to defend the Black Miss America Pageant has been based on its creation, or its history. That was the point of the questions regarding whether it could become racist, because we at least have to agree that a history of discrimination against blacks does not mean that they can never be racist.

I was not suggesting that the pageant be removed, but I am saying that it is absurd that we can pretend that it does not have racist undertones just because we were racist to them first. Also, we should not forget that racism is not a white/black issue. Should we have an American Indian Pageant, maybe an American Samoan. If I had enough time I am sure I could come up with one hundred under-represented ethnic groups.

Again, our treatment of black people in this country has been atrocious, but we can't use that to blind us to the deficiencies of our current solutions. I am not saying we should remove all these programs, your inserting extreme positions into my mouth. But, a true solution to our problem will not be found if we all have to ignore the problems with our current solutions.

 

[bamacre]

Wanna go mining in the Yukon next summer with me?:biggrin:

Kills a lot of birds and gots gold In Dawson they take gold at the bar. Hoes are nothing to look at but it's 19th century in spades. We don't even have to worry about TSA since you gotta pack everything you need for 2-3 months in on 4x4s (if you want to survive)

I don't think my tolerance could run up a bar tab worthy of paying with gold.

 

[bamacre]

How in the hell did this thread progress from government-funded art to racism?

 

[Craig234]

Every response you have made to defend the Black Miss America Pageant has been based on its creation, or its history. That was the point of the questions regarding whether it could become racist, because we at least have to agree that a history of discrimination against blacks does not mean that they can never be racist.

I was not suggesting that the pageant be removed, but I am saying that it is absurd that we can pretend that it does not have racist undertones just because we were racist to them first. Also, we should not forget that racism is not a white/black issue. Should we have an American Indian Pageant, maybe an American Samoan. If I had enough time I am sure I could come up with one hundred under-represented ethnic groups.

Again, our treatment of black people in this country has been atrocious, but we can't use that to blind us to the deficiencies of our current solutions. I am not saying we should remove all these programs, your inserting extreme positions into my mouth. But, a true solution to our problem will not be found if we all have to ignore the problems with our current solutions.

You do not understand racism. Racism is the intent to claim superiority for a race, to exclude another race, to ignore wrongs to another race, etc.

There is a difference on this between a majority's or the group in power's behavior - in which same-race only tends to be racist, exclusionary - and minority race behavior, which tends not to be claiming superiority, not aimed at putting another race as secondary in worth, but merely a group identity, perhaps a response in part to a history of racism against them, doing something that is for their group but not aimed against others.

Hence, blacks in South Africa now do reportedly have some racist history against whites now that they're in power - following a long history of racism against them.

You can find racism between strains of Chinese, or Chines against other Asians; same with Japanese; or with Russians; same with South Americans.

While the Miss Black America pageant may have been born in a worse situation of racism than exists now, what has never been is racist, implying 'this is black-only because whites aren't good enough to be in it'. It's different to say 'we want it just for us' when whites do it with a history of a racist 'separate but equal law' as the law of the land from the Supreme Court for sixty years following even worse racism - and white mob violence in places to oppose its repeal - and whites' power status.

A 'white-only' club where are only 10% blacks, or a 'black-only' club where there are only 10% whites, is more exclusive, than a 'black-only' club where there are only 10% blacks, or a 'white-only' club where where are only 10% whites, which are more an affiinity group - as long as there isn't some 'elitism' about it, like the 'skull and bones' club for the kids of the powerful.

If whites in 90% white groups form something, it's like to be to put down blacks in some way, even if it's 'we're not comfortable with them'. If blacks in 10% black situations form something, it's likely to have some relief from that minority status. Go to Europe, and you will find 'American ex-pat' groups, that aren't about Europeans being second class or nor being comfortable with them because they're inferior.

The distinction takes a little common sense, not a simplistic definition as 'oh it was only one race so it's racist!'

That's awfully convenient simplicity coming from someone in the favored group, ignoring the history of real racism and denying the real issue.