Joe Manchin torches Democrats on the way out

[SteveGrabowski]

How do you square the idea that the democrats lost because they went too far right when 1) polls show voters thought they were too liberal and 2) they lost to someone further to the right?

The Democrats lost because the people hate the DC establishment right now and (wrongly) view Trump as an outsider disrupting the GOP instead of the useful idiot he is for getting the mainstream GOP agenda passed. The people (rightfully) want a hand grenade to DC and these right wing neolibs the democrats keep nominating are about as anti-antiestablishment as it gets. The whole country is united in not feeling any sympathy for Thompson's murder because they rightfully despise our price-gouging healthcare system so I think someone coming in to blow it all up and replace it with a sane system like Medicare For All would win and probably win big. The Democrats keep nominating these neolibs and they keep losing to terrible GOP candidates, with their only wins this century coming in times of disaster (The Great Recession and 1 million dead from COVID) or when the GOP makes an insanely stupid self own (Romney running on ending Medicare). I don't understand wanting to do the same thing over and over again when it fails. I mean I can understand the Democrats doing it because their biggest goal is keeping the left out of power, but I can't understand voters wanting them to keep up the same losing strategy.

 

[Moonbeam]

Nah, people were doing this for Biden’s entire administration. They didn’t like that he exerted so much power over legislation, which is fair, but trying to kick him out of the caucus, saying it would be better if he were replaced by a Republican, etc., is all insane.

I agree these irrational outbursts are prompted by anger but that doesn’t make them less irrational. Manchin was better than any plausible alternative and it’s not close.

I used losing the election as an example of being triggered by loss. I felt triggered by loss every time Manchin got in the way, same as others here. It was you who got me to see your point about him. I despised him but all hate is self hate. I saw him as a spoiler I wanted to blame for the fact that only I can really spoil my life.. I hate him because I hate me. He triggered that by preventing things I wanted passed from passing. I was not one who wanted him removed.

The psychological stages of progress in my opinion are depression sadness anger rage grief which heals. Anger is irrational but we are full of it and need to deal with it therapeutically to heal.

This post is probably incoherent because I am time pressed

 

[kage69]

The main attack Trump made on Obama’s legacy failed though.

I don't believe we've seen the last of their efforts wrt the ACA, we'll see. Trump's a king now, and his thralls will control all 3 branches of the government soon. I don't believe that issue is settled, though the list of rollbacks that have been accomplished aren't exactly small potatoes. From the sound of it from Trump and his swamp creatures will be picking up the greivance ball they put down in 2020, going right back to it. I believe them.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

The main attack Trump made on Obama’s legacy failed though.

It's possible McCain was just the lightning rod to take the heat off other Republicans who didn't want it repealed the same way Lieberman was to the Democrats for killing the public option, or it's possible it was just McCain wanting to piss in Trump's Cheerios for being such a c u next Tuesday to him. If it was the latter then the ACA is DOA within a few months. If it was the former then still a great chance the ACA gets wiped out since the GOP is much more loyal to Trump now than they were in 2017.

 

[fskimospy]

It's possible McCain was just the lightning rod to take the heat off other Republicans who didn't want it repealed the same way Lieberman was to the Democrats for killing the public option, or it's possible it was just McCain wanting to piss in Trump's Cheerios for being such a c u next Tuesday to him. If it was the latter then the ACA is DOA within a few months. If it was the former then still a great chance the ACA gets wiped out since the GOP is much more loyal to Trump now than they were in 2017.

Anything is possible of course but the ACA is now quite popular. Not sure there’s an appetite for trying to repeal it like before. My guess is they will try to take health care away from poor people through less obvious means.

 

[you2]

I don't disagree with everything he said on the way out but that doesn't mean i agree how he expressed himself. I think another way i put it there are people on the left who i think are too far out or unreasonable in their policies but they generally have good intentions even if they go too far; this is rather different than for example the republicans who are enormous unethical hypocrite. I guess what I am saying is bring out the flaws of some of those in the far left is fine but it pails compared to the hypocrite insincere far right folks and he should at least spend equal time discussing both sides (imho).

 

[Moonbeam]

Liberals are less unethical than Republicans are in my opinion and mainly I think because them only have two primary ethical concerns, fairness and equality, whereas Republicans have those two and a bunch of others. Having far fewer moral concerns means you have fewer ways in which to become a moral hypocrite. Republicans can fuck up in a lot more ways.

That means conservatives statistically will have more members who are bigots. A bigot is a person who has a moral concern and confuses the morality of having such a concern with thinking whatever they were conditioned to believe is the proper way to actualize correct behavior is actually the correct way. They believe in a good that is real but they in fact don’t actually know what real good looks like and is. Their good can actually be evil. Democrats can still fuck up two moral concerns but not the rest of them. Where they fuck up is in thinking the extra moral concerns that conservatives have are not real when in fact they are.

 

[MrSquished]

Joe Manchin is a giant smelly turd. Unfortunately he was a necessary option because the Senate margins were so close and compared to any other option from the hick State he is from would have been way worse. So we needed his vote more often than not. But now he is a toxic turd, fuck him now to all hells.

 

[you2]

Liberals are less unethical than Republicans are in my opinion and mainly I think because them only have two primary ethical concerns, fairness and equality, whereas Republicans have those two and a bunch of others. Having far fewer moral concerns means you have fewer ways in which to become a moral hypocrite. Republicans can fuck up in a lot more ways.

That means conservatives statistically will have more members who are bigots. A bigot is a person who has a moral concern and confuses the morality of having such a concern with thinking whatever they were conditioned to believe is the proper way to actualize correct behavior is actually the correct way. They believe in a good that is real but they in fact don’t actually know what real good looks like and is. Their good can actually be evil. Democrats can still fuck up two moral concerns but not the rest of them. Where they fuck up is in thinking the extra moral concerns that conservatives have are not real when in fact they are.

Not sure what you are smoking but lets pick a typical republican like Gaetz - just read the public report on him.... now find such on AOC

 

[SteveGrabowski]

I don't disagree with everything he said on the way out but that doesn't mean i agree how he expressed himself. I think another way i put it there are people on the left who i think are too far out or unreasonable in their policies but they generally have good intentions even if they go too far; this is rather different than for example the republicans who are enormous unethical hypocrite. I guess what I am saying is bring out the flaws of some of those in the far left is fine but it pails compared to the hypocrite insincere far right folks and he should at least spend equal time discussing both sides (imho).

There is no political far left in this nation. I don't see anyone running on abolishing private property nor on seizing factories to give to the workers. There is a hard right wing party and a soft right wing controlled opposition party and that's it.

 

[manly]

The point is that Manchin was very, very good in his totality.

Everyone here should be happy he was in the senate if advancing progressive priorities is actually your goal. I get the sense people like complaining more than advancing the cause though.

It isn't that though. Folks here are claiming Manchin voted lock step with the GOP, which is far from the truth.* I was stunned when he came back to the table to push the IRA over the line. Still don't know what Dems promised to him to get him to agree.

And your other point is very salient. WV was something like a Trump +39 state (going off of memory, could be wrong on the number itself). Manchin's actual voting record is well to the left of the "fine folks" of WV that elected him to office. We all know Manchin is a DINO, but he chose to caucus with the Dems and IIRC voted along with the Biden admin about 80% of the time. That is significantly better than not just the average GOP Senator, but in a different galaxy from how Manchin's successor will vote. Flat out saying that you'd rather have an honest GOP Senator than a smarmy Joe Manchin actually makes insane people look reasonable.**

* It's one thing to hate how the sausage is made, and that's how some people honestly feel. It's another entirely to claim you'd rather eat shit than to eat an actual sausage.

** Reminds me of Ralph Nader saying there's no functional difference between GWB and Al Gore.

As for throwing gasoline on the burning house as you run out the door, fuck Joe Manchin.

 

[MrSquished]

Imagine still thinking the Democrats should go right.

The Democrats lack an identity because they keep changing tack to the center.

They need to embrace a lot of their progressive political Roots and just avoid a couple of big landmines such as trans people and they should keep supporting border security.

Other than that they should embrace progressivism. Democrats lost two out of three embracing the center against Trump. People want a differentiation of parties, and if the Democrats embrace actual progressive issues like Bernie Sanders does they would kill it just not with Bernie Sanders. Just need a better messenger who's not as far left but embraces a lot of the same things.

The Democrats also got stuck in an anti-incumbent global mood with a fucking incumbent candidate. Because Joe fucking Biden fucked us of a primary so we could get a candidate not tied to the Joe Biden administration. Switching to kamala was the only choice When the predictable happened, but she was still part of the incumbency literally.

If the Democrats had a primary and ran a candidate with the same exact message as she did but just not so closely associated with the Biden incumbency, they could have easily won. Also probably would have helped if they weren't a woman.

Any Democrat telling us to go right is a fool because they're not taking into consideration why the election turned out the way it did because they're not calculating the messenger we had and all the negatives associated with her.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

There is no political far left in this nation. I don't see anyone running on abolishing private property nor on seizing factories to give to the workers. There is a hard right wing party and a soft right wing controlled opposition party and that's it.

Yup, green new deal was about the furthest left thing America has seen since the metric system and even that was 'we should make an attempt to keep our children from drowning in their own blood' and that turned out poorly.

 

[you2]

There is no political far left in this nation. I don't see anyone running on abolishing private property nor on seizing factories to give to the workers. There is a hard right wing party and a soft right wing controlled opposition party and that's it.

Well i don't disagree but i also don't agree. In a global sense i would say there are no hard socialist but i do agree that the democrats go too far trying to dictate how people should behave (via various laws); conversely the republicans go way too far via dictating what can be taught in school and book banning.

Having said this as to whether one is far left or far right depends either on relative to local comparison, global comparison or formal defn and it isn't clear to me which is in play here

 

[fskimospy]

Well i don't disagree but i also don't agree. In a global sense i would say there are no hard socialist but i do agree that the democrats go too far trying to dictate how people should behave (via various laws); conversely the republicans go way too far via dictating what can be taught in school and book banning.

Having said this as to whether one is far left or far right depends either on relative to local comparison, global comparison or formal defn and it isn't clear to me which is in play here

What laws do you think democrats go to far on in telling people how to behave?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

What laws do you think democrats go to far on in telling people how to behave?

Most Republicans would likely agree that democratic pushes for climate action go to far.

 

[fskimospy]

Most Republicans would likely agree that democratic pushes for climate action go to far.

I wouldn’t really view business regulation as telling people how to behave. I know in the end it is but do people really refer to regulating coal plant emissions as telling people how to behave?

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Well i don't disagree but i also don't agree. In a global sense i would say there are no hard socialist but i do agree that the democrats go too far trying to dictate how people should behave (via various laws); conversely the republicans go way too far via dictating what can be taught in school and book banning.

Having said this as to whether one is far left or far right depends either on relative to local comparison, global comparison or formal defn and it isn't clear to me which is in play here

The GOP is hard right fascists who wrap themselves in the flag. The Democrats are like the American answer to the Tories.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I wouldn’t really view business regulation as telling people how to behave. I know in the end it is but do people really refer to regulating coal plant emissions as telling people how to behave?

Conservatives love to personalize a lot of those decisions. NY is phasing out gas appliances over the next few years and the gnashing of teeth had been palpable.

Anyhow it all goes back to dems being fascists and replacing American jobs and all sorts of other stupid shit. I'm sure if I could be bothered I'd find videos of conservatives blaming Dems for business regulations ruining their lives.

 

[Moonbeam]

I wouldn’t really view business regulation as telling people how to behave. I know in the end it is but do people really refer to regulating coal plant emissions as telling people how to behave?

This is because ego is a mechanism of self defense. We order children around by telling them they are worthless if they don’t obey. The result is that even the best advice comes across feeling like put downs. Don’t tell me what to do.

 

[Moonbeam]

Conservatives love to personalize a lot of those decisions. NY is phasing out gas appliances over the next few years and the gnashing of teeth had been palpable.

Anyhow it all goes back to dems being fascists and replacing American jobs and all sorts of other stupid shit. I'm sure if I could be bothered I'd find videos of conservatives blaming Dems for business regulations ruining their lives.

Imagine telling the party of God to act ethically. I wish you luck. It’s worthless apeople who need to be controlled.

Imagine still thinking the Democrats should go right.

The Democrats lack an identity because they keep changing tack to the center.

They need to embrace a lot of their progressive political Roots and just avoid a couple of big landmines such as trans people and they should keep supporting border security.

Other than that they should embrace progressivism. Democrats lost two out of three embracing the center against Trump. People want a differentiation of parties, and if the Democrats embrace actual progressive issues like Bernie Sanders does they would kill it just not with Bernie Sanders. Just need a better messenger who's not as far left but embraces a lot of the same things.

The Democrats also got stuck in an anti-incumbent global mood with a fucking incumbent candidate. Because Joe fucking Biden fucked us of a primary so we could get a candidate not tied to the Joe Biden administration. Switching to kamala was the only choice When the predictable happened, but she was still part of the incumbency literally.

If the Democrats had a primary and ran a candidate with the same exact message as she did but just not so closely associated with the Biden incumbency, they could have easily won. Also probably would have helped if they weren't a woman.

Any Democrat telling us to go right is a fool because they're not taking into consideration why the election turned out the way it did because they're not calculating the messenger we had and all the negatives associated with her.

My guess is that the internal membership of the Democratic party, the ones who control who runs, what policies to push, who gets funds etc, the movers and shakers in the system determine who the candidates will be and who will be on the Presidential ticket and don't even hear the opinion of small time egotists like you who imagine themselves as the noises that should be listened to. Get over yourself. You know everything only in your imagination. In the real world of political happenings you add up to zero like the rest of us passengers on the clown car of unconscious behavior.

The distance the country has to move to the left for any form of human dignity to be achieved here is impossible to achieve under current conditions, in my opinion. You are howling at the moon. Only you can fix your inner state of anger and agitation. The universe is deaf to temper tantrums. What you experience is a reflection of your own inner state of chaos. Try having gratitude if you can. Meher Baba wants you to relax and be happy.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Imagine telling the party of God to act ethically. I wish you luck. It’s worthless apeople who need to be controlled.

If I could do that I'd be rich in mind, body and spirit, and I'd have trouble threading camels through needles anymore... so that's out.

 

[zinfamous]

Anybody who doesn't think it was worth putting up with Manchin's typical BS to secure the largest climate package in US history, extend healthcare coverage for millions of people, lower drug prices, and confirm 235 judges is pretty much totally delusional.

the problem with this is that the plot was well and truly lost before we got to the point of hainvg to "tolerate" Manchin to get to these things, at that time.

It should have never been that way.

Manchin is, always was, and always will be a fucking ghoul. You can praise that he was "there" to be a problem to be dealt with in a time when you and I know very well that we never should have dealt with him, but to dismiss our rational ability to criticize the complete piece of dogshit that he is and how he represents the complete degeneration of rational public civil discourse and public policy is quite absurd to me.

Why can't The Manchin lobby of P&N actually admit what you pretty much agree with, when this is what we are complaining about when we invoke these human oxygen thieves?

 

[Moonbeam]

the problem with this is that the plot was well and truly lost before we got to the point of hainvg to "tolerate" Manchin to get to these things, at that time.

It should have never been that way.

Manchin is, always was, and always will be a fucking ghoul. You can praise that he was "there" to be a problem to be dealt with in a time when you and I know very well that we never should have dealt with him, but to dismiss our rational ability to criticize the complete piece of dogshit that he is and how he represents the complete degeneration of rational public civil discourse and public policy is quite absurd to me.

Why can't The Manchin lobby of P&N actually admit what you pretty much agree with, when this is what we are complaining about when we invoke these human oxygen thieves?

In the real world, not the one that wouda coulda shoulda been, Manchin helped pass legislation that was a positive for many people. Whatever negatives you wish to identify him with does not change this fact if you are going to appraise him objectively. His past is now fixed in history. For those who see virtue in the legislation he was vital in passing, those facts will have to be a part of objective consideration in my opinion. I am not a god privileged to render some final verdict. I'm just looking at the record.

How much of what he did he did out of selfish greed and how much out of belief in governing from the notion that legislation should benefit people generally I am not qualified to say. but my personal sense is that he stood for certain mainstream American political ideals that many Democrats have abandoned.

For me they can't be abandoned quick enough but not replaced rationally by identity politics which I think sucks. Differences are endless and meaningless. We are all just human beings and what is good is good for everyone. Aim for what is good. That can't happen when a coin is seen as having two faces.

 

[MrSquished]

I like to sum it up with

'he was a necessary piece of shit'

I'm just a simple fellow