Joe Manchin torches Democrats on the way out

[Moonbeam]

Odd. I don't feel 'whacked out about guns,' but I agree you should study his record more. If you've got a thing for pollution, hypocrisy and self-righteousness you're in for a real treat. Corruption and graft, the kind that yields generational control of WV. Would you consider selling him for 30,000 tons of coal dust?

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I've never been to Yosemite, unfortunately. I have spent time in Joe's home state of West Virginia though, having family in the Berkeley Springs area. Good foraging, lots of turkey. If you can't appreciate what the coal lobby and people like Joe Manchin have done to that incredible place then I recommend skipping your annotations on conservation and blind men. One of these days you're going to have to learn the issue and then post moon, rather than posting to make the issue about other posters. Our egos don't enter into Manchin killing Biden's Build Back Better Act, sorry. Mountaintop removal mining is evil, sorry. If you don't think the conflict of interest and damage behind Manchin's record is worthy of scorn, well then I'm afraid you're doing to the thread what those pigs did to your own treasured water sources.

People like Joe Manchin deserve to be called out. Maybe you should take yourself more seriously here, or at least you know, do the reading.

You are perhaps uncomfortable with being a person who can hold two perspectives at a time, the negatives and positives regarding almost anything, the sense of humility not to be certain you are knowledgeable enough to objectively morally judge other people so it might not set well with you that I take your judgement of me about as seriously as I take my own of me, with modesty uncertainty, and indifference to a need for certainty.

I am happy to see I am not alone in thinking of Manchin in all negatives. There are people who post here who do temper my judgmentalism because of their perspicacity, of course as I see it within them, that is in my opinion. Such a person posted in this thread who added perspective to my view of Manchin in past threads. I often forget I don’t know anything.

 

[gothuevos]

You turned the light off a long time ago. The world sucks, the facts about it suck. But the truth is that the light that exists can exist only in one place, and that is within you. Life has meaning only for those who can turn it back of after it has been extinguished. If your inner darkness were real enough you will see a candle burning faintly with enough light to illuminate the love asleep in your heart.

Only loving again at the risk of being murdered for it again can mend a broken heart. There is nothing to fear but fear itself and all your fears have already happened.

Huh?

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Back then I could drink directly from streams of melting snow and never worry about Giardia. But pigs poop where they will.

No you couldn't, horses have been allowed in Yosemite forever and they're the main reason streams are unsafe to drink from without filtering for giardia.

 

[DaaQ]

It will be funny when the party of "guns" comes to take your guns. See world history.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

It will be funny when the party of "guns" comes to take your guns. See world history.

It's funny because the modern gun control movement was started by Reagan with the NRA's support when it was scary negroes bringing rifles to the California capitol building.

 

[DaaQ]

It's funny because the modern gun control movement was started by Reagan with the NRA's support when it was scary negroes bringing rifles to the California capitol building.

It will be funny due to all the "Obama will take your gun types" who voted for the "I will actually take your gun types"

EDIT: Sold mine at gun shows. too bad Hillary did not create the price increase Obama did.

 

[kage69]

You are perhaps uncomfortable with being a person who can hold two perspectives at a time, the negatives and positives regarding almost anything, the sense of humility not to be certain you are knowledgeable enough to objectively morally judge other people so it might not set well with you that I take your judgement of me about as seriously as I take my own of me, with modesty uncertainty, and indifference to a need for certainty.

I am happy to see I am not alone in thinking of Manchin in all negatives. There are people who post here who do temper my judgmentalism because of their perspicacity, of course as I see it within them, that is in my opinion. Such a person posted in this thread who added perspective to my view of Manchin in past threads. I often forget I don’t know anything.

I've never considered an appreciation for multiple angles discomforting if it helps. As a friend of yours once said, 'you limit the scope, you limit the findings.' Maybe I take this more seriously than you because I've been to WV? Seeing things in person tends to adds certainty I guess you can say.

To be clear I'm more interested in debate about Manchin than I am in judgements of eachother, moral or otherwise.

Fwiw, I have no issue giving credit to the man for the times he made the right call, with the result being a win for the American citizenry. Funny how that fossil fuel prosperity never seem to take place in WV, no? Why do you think that is? State is ranked 43 in Quality of Life. Highest rate of opoid deaths. 2nd poorest state by median income as of 2022. Look at his company Enersystems. Manchin diverts millions per year from WV taxpayers to keep his power plant in Grant Town running, to suck cash out of the process - all the while making people who pay him extra for electricity become sick with dirty, coal particulate riddled air. Guess who he thinks should get the clean up bills for flooded mines and polluted waterways? Hint: not coal companies

But hey, he recently rolled over on a bunch of judges. Cool, probably the one area Trump will have a problem handling when he does to Biden's legacy what he did to Obama's.

 

[fskimospy]

I've never considered an appreciation for multiple angles discomforting if it helps. As a friend of yours once said, 'you limit the scope, you limit the findings.' Maybe I take this more seriously than you because I've been to WV? Seeing things in person tends to adds certainty I guess you can say.

To be clear I'm more interested in debate about Manchin than I am in judgements of eachother, moral or otherwise.

Fwiw, I have no issue giving credit to the man for the times he made the right call, with the result being a win for the American citizenry. Funny how that fossil fuel prosperity never seem to take place in WV, no? Why do you think that is? State is ranked 43 in Quality of Life. Highest rate of opoid deaths. 2nd poorest state by median income as of 2022. Look at his company Enersystems. Manchin diverts millions per year from WV taxpayers to keep his power plant in Grant Town running, to suck cash out of the process - all the while making people who pay him extra for electricity become sick with dirty, coal particulate riddled air. Guess who he thinks should get the clean up bills for flooded mines and polluted waterways? Hint: not coal companies

I think the debate about Manchin largely misses the point. The question is not if Joe Manchin is a great guy. The question is if Joe Manchin was a better senator for the average American than any plausible alternative coming out of West Virginia and I think that is an unquestioned yes.

Also remember this is West Virginia. The alternative was not a centrist Republican, it was a crazy one.

But hey, he recently rolled over on a bunch of judges. Cool, probably the one area Trump will have a problem handling when he does to Biden's legacy what he did to Obama's.

The main attack Trump made on Obama’s legacy failed though.

 

[Moonbeam]

I've never considered an appreciation for multiple angles discomforting if it helps. As a friend of yours once said, 'you limit the scope, you limit the findings.' Maybe I take this more seriously than you because I've been to WV? Seeing things in person tends to adds certainty I guess you can say.

To be clear I'm more interested in debate about Manchin than I am in judgements of eachother, moral or otherwise.

Fwiw, I have no issue giving credit to the man for the times he made the right call, with the result being a win for the American citizenry. Funny how that fossil fuel prosperity never seem to take place in WV, no? Why do you think that is? State is ranked 43 in Quality of Life. Highest rate of opoid deaths. 2nd poorest state by median income as of 2022. Look at his company Enersystems. Manchin diverts millions per year from WV taxpayers to keep his power plant in Grant Town running, to suck cash out of the process - all the while making people who pay him extra for electricity become sick with dirty, coal particulate riddled air. Guess who he thinks should get the clean up bills for flooded mines and polluted waterways? Hint: not coal companies

But hey, he recently rolled over on a bunch of judges. Cool, probably the one area Trump will have a problem handling when he does to Biden's legacy what he did to Obama's.

While you claim to be able to hold two perspectives you have presented only one, how terrible Mancin was. I don’t see you addressing the value of his vote in the Senate where his vote was good for Americans. I am suggesting your points, no matter how regrettably true are unidimensional and miss the point. Another poster has made that clear in my opinion.

 

[Moonbeam]

No you couldn't, horses have been allowed in Yosemite forever and they're the main reason streams are unsafe to drink from without filtering for giardia.

At eight to 12 thousand feet hiking ten and more miles a day carrying an eighty lb pack up and down switch back trails I had a cup on my belt and drank snow melt running down the faces of granite by the gallon. I hiked alone in deep wilderness, on depression era CCC tails that locked to have not been walked in years. This was before backpacking had become a thing. I saw nobody back there much less horses.

It’s silly to say I couldn’t when I did big time. I never got sick.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

At eight to 12 thousand feet hiking ten and more miles a day carrying an eighty lb pack up and down switch back trails I had a cup on my belt and drank snow melt running down the faces of granite by the gallon. I hiked alone in deep wilderness, on depression era CCC tails that locked to have not been walked in years. This was before backpacking had become a thing. I saw nobody back there much less horses.

It’s silly to say I couldn’t when I did big time. I never got sick.

And you'd be fine today doing the same on say the Sierra High Route while 50 years ago you'd still have been screwed doing that on the John Muir Trail. LOL old people bitching, remember it was you idiots who fed the bears and made it so I have to carry a bulky bear canister every time I go backpacking out there now.

 

[Jaskalas]

Is he right?

That man was one of two votes standing against all progress and achievement for Americans since 2021.
If by toxic he means to say that we hate him. He would be correct.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Ah gee, manchin said a thing /whatever

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/15/politics/joe-manchin-coal-financial-interests-climate/index.html

 

[Pontius Dilate]

While you claim to be able to hold two perspectives you have presented only one, how terrible Mancin was. I don’t see you addressing the value of his vote in the Senate where his vote was good for Americans.

Fwiw, I have no issue giving credit to the man for the times he made the right call, with the result being a win for the American citizenry.

 

[fskimospy]

The point is that Manchin was very, very good in his totality.

Everyone here should be happy he was in the senate if advancing progressive priorities is actually your goal. I get the sense people like complaining more than advancing the cause though.

 

[Moonbeam]

@Pontius Dilate GOOD CATCH. I failed to remember that responding to his post sometime later after reading it in the sea of grievances he posted about him. The point for me is that in my opinion liberals have become irrationally reactive to being frustrated at every turn in their political agenda by the right such that they can’t see straight. Likely I am similarly inclined to overreact to that here. I think Trump derangement syndrome is real and if you don’t join with other liberals as a liberal yourself you get pegged as the enemy.

I also believe that liberals have moved to the right for the need to acquire corporate donations to run successful campaigns and lost as a result, the vote of the blue collar working man. Carter was the last of that breed in my opinion. Mine won and liberals howl at the moon.

 

[fskimospy]

@Pontius Dilate GOOD CATCH. I failed to remember that responding to his post sometime later after reading it in the sea of grievances he posted about him. The point for me is that in my opinion liberals have become irrationally reactive to being frustrated at every turn in their political agenda by the right such that they can’t see straight. Likely I am similarly inclined to overreact to that here. I think Trump derangement syndrome is real and if you don’t join with other liberals as a liberal yourself you get pegged as the enemy.

I also believe that liberals have moved to the right for the need to acquire corporate donations to run successful campaigns and lost as a result, the vote of the blue collar working man. Carter was the last of that breed in my opinion. Mine won and liberals howl at the moon.

How do you square the idea that the democrats lost because they went too far right when 1) polls show voters thought they were too liberal and 2) they lost to someone further to the right?

 

[eelw]

Who cares about federal judges when everything that matters will get appealed to SCOTUS. Don’t recall the vote count, but only believe 1 where it required Harris as tie breaker. Chips act and infrastructure were bipartisan. He killed far more other things that would have improved things.

 

[fskimospy]

Who cares about federal judges when everything that matters will get appealed to SCOTUS. Don’t recall the vote count, but only believe 1 where it required Harris as tie breaker. Chips act and infrastructure were bipartisan. He killed far more other things that would have improved things.

So to be clear you’re saying things would be better if Manchin had been replaced by a Republican instead?

Remember - that is the ONLY choice. Manchin or a crazy Republican. Which is better?

 

[Moonbeam]

The point is that Manchin was very, very good in his totality.

Everyone here should be happy he was in the senate if advancing progressive priorities is actually your goal. I get the sense people like complaining more than advancing the cause though.

For me the complaining is just a symptom of rage. Liberals, myself included, lost the election. To lose as an entitled American, person full of self righteous indignation and moral certitude is to suffer humiliation. That’s what the same as being told you are worthless and that hitting home at how we really do feel but refuse to acknowledge. Complaining is letting off the steam of blame created by hidden feelings of guilt. But you know me. That’s always what I see.

 

[fskimospy]

For me the complaining is just a symptom of rage. Liberals, myself included, lost the election. To lose as an entitled American, person full of self righteous indignation and moral certitude is to suffer humiliation. That’s what the same as being told you are worthless and that hitting home at how we really do feel but refuse to acknowledge. Complaining is letting off the steam of blame created by hidden feelings of guilt. But you know me. That’s always what I see.

Nah, people were doing this for Biden’s entire administration. They didn’t like that he exerted so much power over legislation, which is fair, but trying to kick him out of the caucus, saying it would be better if he were replaced by a Republican, etc., is all insane.

I agree these irrational outbursts are prompted by anger but that doesn’t make them less irrational. Manchin was better than any plausible alternative and it’s not close.

 

[eelw]

So to be clear you’re saying things would be better if Manchin had been replaced by a Republican instead?

Remember - that is the ONLY choice. Manchin or a crazy Republican. Which is better?

Without senate control the 1st 2 years, Biden would have been able to push back why he couldn’t do things. Low info voters have no idea how much Manchin has blocked. Student loans. Gun safety. Nation wide abortion. Climate bills

 

[fskimospy]

Without senate control the 1st 2 years, Biden would have been able to push back why he couldn’t do things. Low info voters have no idea how much Manchin has blocked. Student loans. Gun safety. Nation wide abortion. Climate bills

Manchin voted for the single largest climate change action bill in history and it was a 50-50 vote that would have failed if a Republican were in his place so you’re only proving my point.

As far as the idea that low information voters would reward democrats electorally for not accomplishing anything because they could claim it’s the Republicans’ fault well to see why that’s wrong look no further than immigration. Republicans very publicly torpedoed the bill, it was entirely their fault, and when it came to the elections voters thought immigration was important and…rewarded Republicans.

They don’t care why stuff isn’t getting done. In the US the president owns the outcome regardless of the reason. Giving up major policy wins as some sort of speculative PR strategy is insane.

 

[Jaskalas]

Without senate control the 1st 2 years, Biden would have been able to push back why he couldn’t do things. Low info voters have no idea how much Manchin has blocked.

Low info voters (majority) only know that Biden is President and is blamed for all things in existence.
Not having control of the Senate wouldn't mean anything to them. Not sure how many that would appeal to, but I imagine it is a thin margin.

 

[Moonbeam]

How do you square the idea that the democrats lost because they went too far right when 1) polls show voters thought they were too liberal and 2) they lost to someone further to the right?

I think that to win elections you need money and votes which means in turn you have to be business friendly to some extent and broaden your political appeal. In a competitive system you have to navigate in such a way as to have both the means to put out your message and cater to segments of the population who are conditioned by the system to have conflicting interest and only care about themselves.

Conservatives, on the other hand serve the rich and have the means and propaganda machienery to divide and conquer. All they have to do is define liberal as those who support the other guy while delivering the goods to the rich. They legislate for the rich insuring that money is the only speech that is heard and create fear that divides the liberal big tent. The country drifts to the right and Democrats are forced to follow in order to appease the growing frustration the population feels. People who hate themselves are begging to be manipulated.

In my opinion Democrats failed to deliver a system that delivered a better life to the working man by chasing after other voter interests. People can take care of those things if they can earn a decent wage. They ran away from the absolute fact that the rich have been engaged in endless class warfare while making any conscious recognition of that fact taboo.

Humanity is asleep, upside down and inside out. Humanity is insane. In a competitive system the cunning and clever and their sycophants will win via manipulation. Only economic security can defeat fear in a dog eat dog world.

If you create fear of the left the left will move left to compete but the people out of that fear will abandon them anyway and more even faster that way.