Jimmy Carter Administration Revisted

m1ldslide1

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2006
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I just happened to get to the part in the book this afternoon dealing with Carter's presidency, and I thought of ProfJohn's comments about his declining defense spending, and about the left's tendency to idolize Carter as a pure champion of their (my) ideals. I'm quite surprised to find that the masses on both the right and left are egregiously misguided when it comes to the facts of his presidency. I thought I would print the following exerpts from Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the US":

"A financial writer wrote, not long after Carter's election: "So far, Mr. Carter's actions, commentary, and particularly his Cabinet appointments, have been highly rassuring to the business community.""

"When Congressman Herman Badillo introduced in Congress a proposal that required the US representatives to the World Bank and other internatinoal financial institutions to vote against loans to countires that systematically violated essential rights, by the use of torture or imprisonment without trial, Carter sent a personal letter to every Congressman urging the defeat of this amendment. It won a voice vote in the House, but lost in the Senate."

"Under Carter, the US continued to support, all over the world, regimes that engaged in imprisonment of dissenters, torture, and mass murder: in the Phillippines, in Iran, in Nicaragua, and in Indonesia, where the inhabitants of East Timor were being annihilated in a campaign bordering on genocide."

"His appeal was populist - that is, he appealed to various elements of American society who saw themselves beleaguered by the powerful and wealthy. Although he himsself was a millionaire peanut grower, he presented himself as an ordinary American farmer. Although he had been a supporter of the Vietnam war until its end, he presented himself as a sympathizer with those who had been against the war, and he appealed to many of the young rebels of the sixties by his promise to cut the military budget."

"When Carter ran for election, he told the Democratic Platform Commitee: "Without endangering the defense of our nation or commitments to our allies, we can reduce present defense expenditures by about 5 to 7 billion dollars annually." But his first budget proposed not a decrase but an increase of $10 billion for the military. Indeed, he proposed that the US spend a trillion dollars in the next five years on its military forces."

"Carter approved tax "reforms" which benefited mainly the corporations. Economist Robert Lekachman, writing in The Nation, noted the sharp increase in corporat profits (44 percent) in the last quarter of 1978 over the previous year's last quarter. He wrote: "Perhaps the President's most outrageous act occurred last November when he signed into law an $18 billion tax reduction, the bulk of whose benefits accrue to affluent individuals and corporations."

"Carter made some efforts to hold onto social programs, but this was undermined by his very large military budgets. Presumably, this was to guard against the Soviet Union, but when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979, Carter could take only symbolic actions, like reinstituting the draft, or calling for a boycott of the 1980 Moscow Olympics.

On the other hand, American weaponry was used to support dictatorial regimes battling left-wing rebels abroad. A report by the Carter administration to Congress in 1977 was blunt, saying that "a number of countries with deplorable records of human rights observance are also countires where we have important security and foreign policy interests.

Thus, Carter asked Congress in the spring of 1980 for $5.7 million in credits for the military junta fighting off a peasant rebellion in El Salvador. In the Philippines, after the 1978 National Assembly elections, President Ferdinand Marcos imprisoned ten of the twenty-one losing opposition candidates; many prisoners were tortured, many civilians were killed. Still, Carter urged Congress to give Marcos $300 million in military aid for the next five years."

[Similar paragraphs talking of supporting Somoza in Nicaragua and the Shah in Iran ommitted because my fingers are getting tired- you get the point]

[Finally, in reference to the 52 American hostages captured due to the US policy of support towards the brutal regime of the Shah and allowing him to seek refuge in the US from a popular uprising]

"It was a rare journalist bold enough to point out, as Alan Richman of the Boston Globe did when the fifty-two hostages were released alive and apparently well, that there was a certain lack of proportion in American reactions to this and other violations of human rights: "There were 52 of them, a number easy to comprehend. It wasn't like 15,000 innocent people permanently disappaering in Argentina.... They [the American hostages] spoke our language. There were 3000 people summarily shot in Guatemala last year who did not."




How are the democrats different than the republicans again? The whole game is about gauging the national mood and getting elected, and then its just business as goddamn usual. Is Obama really going to be any different? Is McCain? Paul? We know that Clinton won't be. Does anyone even really care?

Why do republicans dislike Carter at all? His policies in reality consisted of supporting brutal dictatorships through financial and military aid, suppressing popular communist uprisings in those countries, skyrocketing military budget, tax breaks for the rich, his attorney general handing out slaps on the wrist to serious fraud crimes commited by big oil (didn't type that part out), ignoring the poor for the most part except in his speeches, etc and so on. In other words, pro big business at home and abroad no matter what the cost. Establishment all the way.

I've read through about 500 years of American history now, and it's all pretty much the same, over and over, no matter who was in power. JFK was as morally irresponsible in his domestic and foreign policy as Reagan ever was. Pick your hero, and he's got something(s) on his record that leaves us all sick to our stomachs, no matter which party we tend to side with.

The peoples of this country, since it's European discovery to the present, have endured and survived not because of leadership and progress, but in spite of it.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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The terrorism of the suicide bomber and the terrorism of aerial bombardment are indeed morally equivalent. To say otherwise (as either side might) is to give one moral superiority over the other, and thus serve to perpetuate the horrors of our time.

Howard Zinn
So strapping a bomb on your chest and walking into a wedding reception and blowing yourself up is the same as targeting a terrorist or military target and killing a few near by civilians on accident?

Perhaps you should balance what you are reading from Zinn with the writings of some other people.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The terrorism of the suicide bomber and the terrorism of aerial bombardment are indeed morally equivalent. To say otherwise (as either side might) is to give one moral superiority over the other, and thus serve to perpetuate the horrors of our time.

Howard Zinn
So strapping a bomb on your chest and walking into a wedding reception and blowing yourself up is the same as targeting a terrorist or military target and killing a few near by civilians on accident?

Perhaps you should balance what you are reading from Zinn with the writings of some other people.

I see the initial shock of that comment, but as someone who has no feelings for Zinn one way or the other I can see you're fully of shit. He is obviously referring to aerial bombardment such as the firebombing of Tokyo which, in actual results, destroyed civilian and military targets indiscriminately. He is not referring to the smartbombing of Baghdad. I can see the context in this quote despite your attempt to hide it for your own spinning purposes.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,259
14,684
146
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The terrorism of the suicide bomber and the terrorism of aerial bombardment are indeed morally equivalent. To say otherwise (as either side might) is to give one moral superiority over the other, and thus serve to perpetuate the horrors of our time.

Howard Zinn
So strapping a bomb on your chest and walking into a wedding reception and blowing yourself up is the same as targeting a terrorist or military target and killing a few near by civilians on accident?

Perhaps you should balance what you are reading from Zinn with the writings of some other people.

The intent may be different, but the end result is still the same...dead civilians who had nothing to do with the conflict at hand.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The terrorism of the suicide bomber and the terrorism of aerial bombardment are indeed morally equivalent. To say otherwise (as either side might) is to give one moral superiority over the other, and thus serve to perpetuate the horrors of our time.

Howard Zinn
So strapping a bomb on your chest and walking into a wedding reception and blowing yourself up is the same as targeting a terrorist or military target and killing a few near by civilians on accident?

Perhaps you should balance what you are reading from Zinn with the writings of some other people.

the book was written before smart bombs.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
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Carter was really weak on economics and foreign policy. People from the Tri-lateral Commission went out and got him coaches on these subjects during his campaign so he could sound credible. When he was elected, they sent him people for Cabinet and advisory posts. Carter accepted these people with good intentions as they certainly seemed to have excellent credentials in finance, international trade, etc.. He failed to understand that they had a hidden agenda. While the policies they developed were primarily designed to make many rich people much richer, they always had some believable explanation of why they were sensible. While some things sounded bad, he was told any alternative was worse. Carter was really out of his league with them.

A lot of less-than-desirable things happened when he was in office, and he bears the ultimate blame as it was on his watch. But I think he truly wanted to be a good President.

edit:

By the way, I think this is the same kind of thing that could happen to Obama.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
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Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
edit:

By the way, I think this is the same kind of thing that could happen to Obama.

Obama was the President of the Harvard Law Review. He also taught at the University of Chicago for over a decade. Not exactly your average peanut farmer.
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,347
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Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The terrorism of the suicide bomber and the terrorism of aerial bombardment are indeed morally equivalent. To say otherwise (as either side might) is to give one moral superiority over the other, and thus serve to perpetuate the horrors of our time.

Howard Zinn
So strapping a bomb on your chest and walking into a wedding reception and blowing yourself up is the same as targeting a terrorist or military target and killing a few near by civilians on accident?

Perhaps you should balance what you are reading from Zinn with the writings of some other people.

the book was written before smart bombs.

Smart bombs, as in laser guided, came out during viet nam in the late 60's.

And ya, when you take ot 40 civilians to get 1 target, I call that terrorism.

 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: m1ldslide1

JFK was as morally irresponsible in his domestic and foreign policy as Reagan ever was.

Oh, that's utter BS. You need to read more and get some comprehension of the realities of the history.

JFK was not perfect, either in the compromises he made for the politics of the day, his own policies, or his mistakes - but he was incredibly better than others, including Reagan.

I could write a long post on why, and have, but you just need to keep reading and get the facts.

Your immediate assignment is to read this speech, given at the height of the cold war, months after the Cuban Missile Crisis.

With the bellicose Kruschev his counterpart, the man who famously banged his shoe at the UN and snuck nuclear weapons into Cuba, Kennedy's speech was called by Kruschev the greatest by an American president in several presidents, and played across the highly censored Soviet Union. JFK was opening the door to detente at the height of the cold war. You don't see the same thing with Reagan, who had the counterpart dedicated to peace, to the point of dismantling the USSR, who said Reagan threw away the historic chance to form an agreement with the USSR to rid the world of nuclear weapons, simply so Reagan could keep Star Wars in place.

Kennedy changed the policy of the US from picking brutal right-wing dictators over real moderates to the opposite, while Reagan backed death squads and a terrorist army.

You need to learn how to recognize the positive in our leaders and not simply become a peanut gallery treating the presidents the same.

If you want to look at the lesser side, you can find things such as Kennedy's strong buildup of the nuclear arsenal, among other things.

But the man took great heat from our European allies for his change in policy to stop supporting European colonies, he stood firm when he was betrayed by his own (inherited) government officials on the Bay of Pigs to avoid war, he stood firm against turning Vietnam into an American ground war while laying the groundwork for withdrawal. IMO he had one of the best foreign policy records of any president, overall.

He didn't have Eisenhower's overthrowing of democracy in Iran to install a dictator and unnecessary near-war hostility spurning the USSR's efforts at peace, LBJ's miscalculations of war in Vietnam, Nixon's dishonest escalation of the war in Vietnam, Ford's sanctioning of the slaughter by Indonesia in East Timor, Carter's ineffectiveness, Reagan's countless disasters, Bush 41's unnecessary wars from Iraq to Panama, Clinton's failure to act on Rwandan genocide, etc.

When President Chavez implemented land reforms in Venezuela in the early 2000's, he pointed out they had been recommended by President Kennedy.

Kennedy said, 'When the powerful make peaceful revolution impossible, they make violent revolution inevitable'. You won't see many presidents, especially Reagan, say that.

Huts in third world countries around the world had Kennedy's picture on the wall because his policies were not at all like Reagan's. Go read.

Edit: I just saw you said domestic policy, too. Now I wonder if you're just hopeless if you can't tell the difference between Kennedy's responsible budgets and battling for anti-poverty and other social programs to benefit the nation and Reagan's countless domestic policy disasters, not least of which was his starting the huge deficits for the nation that are bankrupting it. Now your post is just absurd and offensive to accuracy.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
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Craig, we get it. You're a far-left kook who thinks JFK and Carter were two of the finest POTUS ever.

The fact of the matter is that Carter was a total disaster, by any qualification. JFK was mostly Camelot and smoke/mirrors.
 

cliftonite

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2001
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Originally posted by: Pabster
Craig, we get it. You're a far-left kook who thinks JFK and Carter were two of the finest POTUS ever.

The fact of the matter is that Carter was a total disaster, by any qualification. JFK was mostly Camelot and smoke/mirrors.

Not as much as Bush though.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Remember any disasterous wars under Carter?

I remember long lines at the gas pumps, the Shah, 20%+ mortgage rates, double-digit inflation across the board, and a silly peanut farmer. Sound about right? ;)

Your "wars" claim is summarily dismissed, as you cannot compare the world we now live in (and the threats we face) to 197x.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Remember any disasterous wars under Carter?

I remember long lines at the gas pumps, the Shah, 20%+ mortgage rates, double-digit inflation across the board, and a silly peanut farmer. Sound about right? ;)

Your "wars" claim is summarily dismissed, as you cannot compare the world we now live in (and the threats we face) to 197x.
You can dismiss it until your ass bleeds for all I care, the fact is Bushes foriegn Policy has been a much greater disater than Carters and Carters was pretty bad.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The terrorism of the suicide bomber and the terrorism of aerial bombardment are indeed morally equivalent. To say otherwise (as either side might) is to give one moral superiority over the other, and thus serve to perpetuate the horrors of our time.

Howard Zinn
So strapping a bomb on your chest and walking into a wedding reception and blowing yourself up is the same as targeting a terrorist or military target and killing a few near by civilians on accident?

Perhaps you should balance what you are reading from Zinn with the writings of some other people.

I see the initial shock of that comment, but as someone who has no feelings for Zinn one way or the other I can see you're fully of shit. He is obviously referring to aerial bombardment such as the firebombing of Tokyo which, in actual results, destroyed civilian and military targets indiscriminately. He is not referring to the smartbombing of Baghdad. I can see the context in this quote despite your attempt to hide it for your own spinning purposes.

I have to disagree. The firebombing of Tokyo was in a total war situation in which every man and woman and child were expected and prepare to fight off Allied invaders using sharpened sticks if they had to. The entirety of Tokyo's populace was dedicated to the war effort by churning out materiel. In World War II Japan, civilian and military targets were one and the same. Now, what case is there for blowing up a wedding reception in a church today? That's hardly equivalent to bombing a military base.

The former was in an effort to disrupt logistics and supplies for Japan's war machine. The second was to incite terror amongst an unarmed populace. There's a distinct difference.
 

m1ldslide1

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2006
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: m1ldslide1

JFK was as morally irresponsible in his domestic and foreign policy as Reagan ever was.

Oh, that's utter BS. You need to read more and get some comprehension of the realities of the history.

I only have a little bit of time to respond to this, as I'm at work, but I just wanted to make it clear that my opinions have been shaped on JFK by the same book.

On JFK in Vietnam:

"Under the Geneva Accords, the US was permitted to have 685 military advisers in Southern Vietnam. Eisenhower secretly sent several thousand. Under Kennedy, the figure rose to sixteen thousand, and some of them began to take part in combat operations."

"Earlier in 1963, Kennedy's Undersecretary of State, U. Alexis Johnson, was speaking before the Economic Club of Detroit:

"What is the attraction that Southeast Asia has exerted for centuries on the great powers flanking it on all sides? Why is it desirable, and why is it important? First, it provides a lush climate, fertile soil, rich natural resources, a relatively sparse population in most areas, and room to expand. The countries of SE Asia produce rich exportable surpluses such as rice, rubber, teak, corn, tin, spices, oil, and many others..."

"This is not the language that was used by President Kennedy in his explanations to the American public. He talked of Communism and freedom. In a news conference February 14, 1962, he said: "Yes, as you know, the US for more than a decade has been assisting the government, the people of Vietnam, to maintain their independence.""

"When Kennedy took office in early 1961 he continued the policies of Truman and Eisenhower in SE Asia. Almost immediately, he approved a secret plan for various military actions in Vietnam and Laos, including the "dispatch of agents to North Vietnam" to engage in "sabotage and light harassment," according to the Pentagon Papers. Back in 1956, he had spoken of "the amazing success of President Diem" and said of Diem's Vietnam: "Her political liberty is an inspiration.""


---Diem being one of those American installed dictators (we flew him out from New Jersey ffs) who imprisoned his opponents, arrested and killed protesters, and did not fulfill his promises to provide land for the starving poor. Of course on the other hand, you had Ho Chi Minh, who was supported by the overwhelming majority of the people, seeking to install a small (evil) communist government to combat the land distribution instituted during French colonialism. So Kennedy lied to the American public about the key motives for military action in SE asia, yet his cabinet members told the truth to big business. Maybe my reaction to this is a little extreme, but Kennedy helped set a process in motion that culminated in the deaths of several million vietnamese and 75,000 odd American soldiers. All for what exactly? Isn't everybody a little sick of being lied to about our military escapades? Especially when its becoming more and more apparent that all of the conflicts from the last half of the 20th century to the present have been towards the end of sustaining a wartime economy and the benefits to business (and nationalism in the populace) it brings.

As for the domestic policy, my statements were specifically in regard to the civil rights movement, where Kennedy continued a long tradition of non-enforcement of various laws enacted to protect blacks and protesters in particular. Again, my reaction may be over the top, but after reading about the few hundred years of oppression of the black and the poor occurring just before the civil rights movement, anything short of drastic action seems to be criminal negligence:


"A year after the Greensboro incident, a northern-based group dedicated to racial equality-CORE (Congress of Racial Equiality)-organized "Freedom Rides" in which blacks and whites traveled together on buses going through the South, to try to break the segregation pattern in interstate travel. Such segregation had long been illegal, but the federal government never enforced the law in the South; the president now was John F. Kennedy, but he too seemed cautious about the race question, concerned about the support of southern white leaders of the Democratic party.
The two buses that left Washington, DC on May 4, 1961, headed for New Orleans, never got there. In South Carolina, riders were beaten. In Alabama, a bus was set afire. Freedom Riders were attacked with fists and iron bars. The southern police did not interfere with any of this violence, nor did the federal government. FBI agents watched, took notes, did nothing."


So go ahead and add the Bay of Pigs onto this list, which I don't really need to type out. Suffice to say, it was another attempt to brutally subvert a popular government with a US puppet, all for economic interests, but telling the people that it was in the name of freedom.

Craig I'm going to read the speech you linked to. Trust me - I would really like to believe that Kennedy (and Carter, Clinton, Lincoln, FDR, etc) did great things in office, but I haven't seen them yet. I am going to keep reading. The "I am a jelly donut" speech in Berlin was inspiring as a high-schooler, and he was obviously an intellectual who understood more than your average president. But then why, why, why did such deplorable things happen under his administration? It can only lead to the conclusion in my previous post, which is that there is little room in the executive branch for anything but conformity to the interests of the system, ie Big Business.

Also, since my post is offensive to accuracy, I'm going to need more than a speech to rectify the situation. Can you recommend anything in particular?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
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Carter was neither great nor terrible. His term was short, and he inherited a nation without direction, in the throes of significant upheaval. Revisionists on either side want to paint him different ways, but in the end, I'd take Carter in a second over Hillary Clinton or George Bush (I or II). I'd rather have a morally sound person trying his best, but accomplishing little, than an evil, hard right or hard left authoritarian quasi-dictator in the oval office.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The terrorism of the suicide bomber and the terrorism of aerial bombardment are indeed morally equivalent. To say otherwise (as either side might) is to give one moral superiority over the other, and thus serve to perpetuate the horrors of our time.

Howard Zinn
So strapping a bomb on your chest and walking into a wedding reception and blowing yourself up is the same as targeting a terrorist or military target and killing a few near by civilians on accident?

Perhaps you should balance what you are reading from Zinn with the writings of some other people.
I see the initial shock of that comment, but as someone who has no feelings for Zinn one way or the other I can see you're fully of shit. He is obviously referring to aerial bombardment such as the firebombing of Tokyo which, in actual results, destroyed civilian and military targets indiscriminately. He is not referring to the smartbombing of Baghdad. I can see the context in this quote despite your attempt to hide it for your own spinning purposes.
Here is the whole of his comments link
This is from August 19, 2007
Samantha Power has done extraordinary work in chronicling the genocides of our time, and in exposing how the Western powers were complicit by their inaction.

However, in her review of four books on terrorism, especially Talal Asad?s ?On Suicide Bombing? (July 29), she claims a moral distinction between ?inadvertent? killing of civilians in bombings and ?deliberate? targeting of civilians in suicide attacks. Her position is not only illogical, but (against her intention, I believe) makes it easier to justify such bombings.

She believes that ?there is a moral difference between setting out to destroy as many civilians as possible and killing civilians unintentionally and reluctantly in pursuit of a military objective.? Of course, there?s a difference, but is there a ?moral? difference? That is, can you say one action is more reprehensible than the other?

In countless news briefings, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney, responding to reporters? questions about civilian deaths in bombing, would say those deaths were ?unintentional? or ?inadvertent? or ?accidental,? as if that disposed of the problem. In the Vietnam War, the massive deaths of civilians by bombing were justified in the same way by Lyndon Johnson, Hubert Humphrey, Richard Nixon and various generals.

These words are misleading because they assume an action is either ?deliberate? or ?unintentional.? There is something in between, for which the word is ?inevitable.? If you engage in an action, like aerial bombing, in which you cannot possibly distinguish between combatants and civilians (as a former Air Force bombardier, I will attest to that), the deaths of civilians are inevitable, even if not ?intentional.? Does that difference exonerate you morally?

The terrorism of the suicide bomber and the terrorism of aerial bombardment are indeed morally equivalent. To say otherwise (as either side might) is to give one moral superiority over the other, and thus serve to perpetuate the horrors of our time.

Howard Zinn
Anyone with half a brain knows the lengths our military goes to in order to prevent civilian casualties.
But Zinn is an anti-war crusader who will say anything in order to push his agenda.
Judging Jimmy Carter, or anyone, based on his writings is wonderful if you happen to agree with Zinn?s anti-war leftist view of things.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
edit:

By the way, I think this is the same kind of thing that could happen to Obama.
Obama was the President of the Harvard Law Review. He also taught at the University of Chicago for over a decade. Not exactly your average peanut farmer.
Carter was a grad of the Naval Academy, not exactly your average peanut farmer either.

BTW your statement is offensive to anyone who is a peanut farmer. Are you impying that peanut farmers are stupid by nature?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
blah blah blah JFK sucks blah blah blah
As I said before you need to balance the views of a radical anti-war, socialist, Marxist with some that are a little more mainstream.

From Wikipedia reviews of his book:
"I wish that I could pronounce Zinn's book a great success, but it is not. It is a synthesis of the radical and revisionist historiography of the past decade. . . Not only does the book read like a scissors and paste-pot job, but even less attractive, so much attention to historians, historiography and historical polemic leaves precious little space for the substance of history. . . . We do deserve a people's history; but not a singleminded, simpleminded history, too often of fools, knaves and Robin Hoods. We need a judicious people's history because the people are entitled to have their history whole; not just those parts that will anger or embarrass them. . . . If that is asking for the moon, then we will cheerfully settle for balanced history."
 

m1ldslide1

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2006
2,321
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Anyone with half a brain knows the lengths our military goes to in order to prevent civilian casualties.
But Zinn is an anti-war crusader who will say anything in order to push his agenda.
Judging Jimmy Carter, or anyone, based on his writings is wonderful if you happen to agree with Zinn?s anti-war leftist view of things.

I'm not sure how to respond to your post. Are you really being critical of Zinn for being anti-war?

I reject the notion that the military or administration cares about preventing civilian casualties. If that were the case, we wouldn't be there to begin with. Instead the ignorant masses are fed the same old line about how we're furthering 'freedom' by invading a sovereign nation posing no real threat to us. Now we have a civilian body count as a direct or indirect result of our actions that spans between 100,000 and 1,000,000, depending on who's doing the counting. Then you get the spin machine claiming that actions taken after the fact to try and mitigate civilian casualties somehow represent our true humanitarian nature.

I'm sure that the majority of the soldiers do in fact take extra measures to reduce 'collateral damage'. Of course, the soldiers on the ground should be the ones taking credit for these measures, not the administration who put them there. The soldiers didn't decide to invade, the criminals in charge did.
 

m1ldslide1

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2006
2,321
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
blah blah blah JFK sucks blah blah blah
As I said before you need to balance the views of a radical anti-war, socialist, Marxist with some that are a little more mainstream.

From Wikipedia reviews of his book:
"I wish that I could pronounce Zinn's book a great success, but it is not. It is a synthesis of the radical and revisionist historiography of the past decade. . . Not only does the book read like a scissors and paste-pot job, but even less attractive, so much attention to historians, historiography and historical polemic leaves precious little space for the substance of history. . . . We do deserve a people's history; but not a singleminded, simpleminded history, too often of fools, knaves and Robin Hoods. We need a judicious people's history because the people are entitled to have their history whole; not just those parts that will anger or embarrass them. . . . If that is asking for the moon, then we will cheerfully settle for balanced history."


It should be pointed out that these are 'reviews' of Zinn's book, and not a critical and unbiased analyses that the word "Wikipedia" tends to connote. The reviews found in Wiki, Amazon, or anywhere will tend to span the range of opinions found on P&N. The nutjobs will come out of the woodwork when their paradigm is challenged. I don't understand how Zinn's accounts are necessarily revisionist, since the majority is taken from correspondence, direct quotes, and studious research. Revisionism seems a convenient term to throw at someone who's challenging the nationalistic ideals that those in charge will spew to try and garner support for immoral activities.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
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Unlike most of you posters, I was alive when Jimmy Carter was president, and I voted for him. He was a good man, and has been smeared by people that know nothing about the man or the time he was president.

wikipiedia
Carter was never a segregationist, and refused to join the segregationist White Citizens' Council, prompting a boycott of his peanut warehouse. He also had been one of only two families which voted to admit blacks to the Plains Baptist Church

Initially, Carter was fairly successful in getting legislation through Congress, but a rift grew between them. A few months after his term started, and thinking he had the support of about 74 Congressmen, Jimmy Carter issued a "hit list" of 19 projects that he claimed were "pork barrel" spending. He said that he would veto any legislation that contained projects on this list [29].

This list met with opposition from the leadership of the Democratic Party. Carter had characterized a rivers and harbors bill as "pork barrel" spending. House speaker Tip O'Neill, who supported the President in a lot of matters, thought it was unwise for the President to interfere with matters that had traditionally been the purview of Congress. Carter was then further weakened when he signed into law a bill containing much of the "hit list" projects

During his first month in office Carter cut the defense budget by $6 billion. One of his first acts was to order the unilateral removal of all nuclear weapons from South Korea and announce his intention to cut back the number of US troops stationed there. Other military men confined intense criticism of the withdrawal to private conversations or testimony before congressional committees, but in 1977 Major General John K. Singlaub, chief of staff of U.S. forces in South Korea, publicly criticized President Carter's decision to lower the U.S. troop level there. On March 21, 1977, Carter relieved him of duty, saying his publicly stated sentiments were "inconsistent with announced national security policy".[30][31] Carter planned to remove all but 14,000 U.S. air force personnel and logistics specialists by 1982, but after cutting only 3,600 troops, he was forced to abandon the effort in 1978.

The Camp David Accords produced two frameworks for peace between Egypt and Israel, and a peace treaty was later signed on March 26, 1979.

President Carter initially departed from the long-held policy of containment toward the Soviet Union. In its place Carter promoted a foreign policy that put human rights at the front. This was a break from the policies of several predecessors, in which human rights abuses were often overlooked if they were committed by a nation that was allied with the United States. The Carter Administration ended support to the historically U.S.-backed Somoza regime in Nicaragua and gave aid to the new Sandinista National Liberation Front government that assumed power after Somoza's overthrow. However, Carter ignored a plea from El Salvador's Archbishop Óscar Romero not to send military aid to that country. Romero was later assassinated for his criticism of El Salvador's violation of human rights.[citation needed]

As author Randy Shilts noted in his book titled "Conduct Unbecoming", Jimmy Carter was one of the first presidents to address the topic of LGBT rights. He opposed a California ballot measure that would have banned gays, and supporters of gay rights from being public school teachers. His administration was the first to meet with a group of gay rights activists, and in recent years he has come out in favor of civil unions and ending the ban on gays in the military [19].

Carter was responsible for legalizing home-brewing when he signed the congressionally approved bill into law in February 1979. This law renewed the country's appreciation for beer and led to the micro-brew enthusiasm of the 1990s.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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3
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
edit:

By the way, I think this is the same kind of thing that could happen to Obama.
Obama was the President of the Harvard Law Review. He also taught at the University of Chicago for over a decade. Not exactly your average peanut farmer.
Carter was a grad of the Naval Academy, not exactly your average peanut farmer either.

BTW your statement is offensive to anyone who is a peanut farmer. Are you impying that peanut farmers are stupid by nature?

Graduating the Naval Academy and graduating from Harvard Law after serving as the President of the Harvard Law Review are not to be considered equal achievements.

I'm implying your average peanut farmer isn't qualified to be President of the United States. I never said they were stupid.

As for the other issue of Zinn, I believe his argument is that if you know there will be civilian casualties inflicted in an aerial attack and go ahead and do it anyway to take out a target, that act is morally equivalent to intentionally attacking civilians. You took his quote out of context, and after you provide that context we see him explain his position clearly in the 5th paragraph ("These words are.."). It is a compelling argument and despite your attempt to throw labels around ('far-left wing nutjob' type labels) he has a point that you fail to address. Yes, our military does go to great lengths to prevent civilian casualties, but that isn't the argument he is making.