Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies

[Freshgeardude]

It's a rather long list, hundreds of Palestinian localities spanning thousands of square kilometers and home hundreds of thousands of people who became refugees, but Wiki provides a decent overview, and of course the sources it cites go into far more detail. And no, international law never allowed any such theft.

war is war.

those that chose to leave ended up losing their land.

from the 1947 partition plan to after the 1948 war, there was a small difference on the jewish/ arab ratio of land.

everything before the independence war was allocated to israel by the UN from british control.

everything after was from WAR.


war is not pretty, both sides had losses, but im no where near going to blame the jews from protecting themselves after the war by creating laws in their governed territory to protect their own citizens over the natives that fought back against them.

if you have a full proof system to distinguish between terrorist and civilian,

by reading their minds to see if they support terrorists or would report them.

who would stop suicide bombings or rocket launches.

please. tell the israeli government.


if not, there is no clear way to distinguish who is a terrorist, who helps the terrorist, and who is a civilian.

the only way to protect yourself (country) from guerrilla warfare is to have a blanket policy.

its not fair. not even close. but like ive always said, a country puts its own citizens first.

 

[Lemon law]

There are still two glaring flaws in the FGD reasoning.

1. We can say war was war but post the UN we can no longer say war is war. Because the very United Nations that legitimized Israel in 1948 has the twin doctrines that gained land by conquest and land gained by collective punishment is illegitimate.

2. As we go back to the thread title that says "Arab's and Israeli's can refuse to be enemies", the entire deal breaker in that contention is that it will never happen as long as Israel refuses to permit a Palestinian State. Meanwhile Israel can only maintain itself by armed might and a military hegemony that is unlikely to last long term. Especially since the present Israeli state is increasingly on international probation.

 

[Freshgeardude]

There are still two glaring flaws in the FGD reasoning.

1. We can say war was war but post the UN we can no longer say war is war. Because the very United Nations that legitimized Israel in 1948 has the twin doctrines that gained land by conquest and land gained by collective punishment is illegitimate.

go tell that to the arab nations with the large Human rights violations and suicide bombings on a daily basis.

land gained when? why say 1967 and not 1948?

it was identical in its gain. both by war, yet the palestinians cry for the 67 borders?

was it legal in the UN beforehand but not post 67?

its a political move.

2. As we go back to the thread title that says "Arab's and Israeli's can refuse to be enemies", the entire deal breaker in that contention is that it will never happen as long as Israel refuses to permit a Palestinian State. Meanwhile Israel can only maintain itself by armed might and a military hegemony that is unlikely to last long term. Especially since the present Israeli state is increasingly on international probation.

the same is exactly said the other way.

it will never happen as long as hamas calls for the destruction of israel, habilitate terrorist organizations, and massively arm up.

as well as hezzbollah arming for WW3.


last i checked, the world sympathizes with israel when it comes to suicide bombers because its inhumane, barbaric, and specifically targeted towards innocent civilians.

there is no probation on israel, I see no sanctions, no embargos, no nothing.

what I do see is a ban on funding of hamas and hezzbollah in the US and EU.

naive person is naive

 

[kylebisme]

Freshgeardude, I would be nice if you could take some time to study the actual history of the conflict rather than incessantly parroting the lies you've been indoctrinated with.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Freshgeardude, I would be nice if you could take some time to study the actual history of the conflict rather than incessantly parroting the lies you've been indoctrinated with.

Funny thing is your the same person who is a 9/11 consiracy person.....talking about looking at history.....

Whose history the make believe history that you and lemon law adhere too......

 

[Amused]

There are still two glaring flaws in the FGD reasoning.

1. We can say war was war but post the UN we can no longer say war is war. Because the very United Nations that legitimized Israel in 1948 has the twin doctrines that gained land by conquest and land gained by collective punishment is illegitimate.

Okay, and since Isreal was stolen from the Jews in 638, they had every right to take it back as it was the Muslems who took it by force in the first place.

 

[kylebisme]

Whose history the make believe history that you and lemon law adhere too......

Lemon Law spouts nearly as much nonsense as you and Freshgeardude do, just from the other side of the argument. As for me, I cite my sources, do you not understand how hotlinks work?

...Isreal was stolen from the Jews in 638...

No, the region hadn't been under Jewish rule since the Roman Empire conqured it in 63 BC. Yet another person with no regard for history. :\

 

[Freshgeardude]

Freshgeardude, I would be nice if you could take some time to study the actual history of the conflict rather than incessantly parroting the lies you've been indoctrinated with.

Bahahahaha you think I don't study the history? I've studied it for over a decade, while you insist your corner of the internet sources are the truth.


Honestly, you are not convincing anyone.

 

[kylebisme]

you think I don't study the history?

I know you cite squat for sources while spouting nonsense which is easily debunked by mainstream sources which anyone can locate with a quick visit to Wikipedia.

 

[Amused]

No, the region hadn't been under Jewish rule since the Roman Empire conqured it in 63 BC. Yet another person with no regard for history. :\

Correction, it was 629. It was the last time the Jews were promised the land (and it was stolen from them yet again). At any rate, it was their's first. They have the most valid historical claim to the land... including most of Syria, too.

 

[kylebisme]

Please quote whatever source you derived your claim from.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Please quote whatever source you derived your claim from.

What does it matter the source..you will just find another source to rebutt his source..lolol....chicken or the egg...

 

[Lemon law]

Nothing will convince the pro Israeli fan clubbers on this forum, and they will be the second most surprised people on the planet when they join the most surprised other group of apartheid State of South Africa fan clubbers who found out their jig was up.

If anyone thought the Various freedom flotillas and international condemnation of Israel statements of the past four years will simply go away now that Israel has frustrated the Obama plan, they are likely to find they have not seen much of anything YET.

 

[kylebisme]

What does it matter the source

What matters is that his claim has no basis in reality. I ask his source simply because I'm curious as to whether he has been reading nonsense spread by others or if he is just coming up with it on his own.

 

[JEDIYoda]

What matters is that his claim has no basis in reality. I ask his source simply because I'm curious as to whether he has been reading nonsense spread by others or if he is just coming up with it on his own.

You mean the same nonsense you cite as a reliable source..lol

 

[Amused]

What matters is that his claim has no basis in reality. I ask his source simply because I'm curious as to whether he has been reading nonsense spread by others or if he is just coming up with it on his own.

Do you even know what happened in 629?

 

[Lemon law]

What matters is that his claim has no basis in reality. I ask his source simply because I'm curious as to whether he has been reading nonsense spread by others or if he is just coming up with it on his own.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My question to Kylebisme is why you place such inordinate faith in the true and logical past historical record?

When history is more a record of how long injustices can persists. And in contrast history is a long record of how long past injustices can persist and persist, only to be finally righted when violent or non-violent changes finally restores a balance.

In a larger historical reality, the Israeli Arab conflict is but small potatoes compared to the end of the dark ages, the bigger birth of science, the end of colonialism, and the still on going industrial revolution to name but a few changes in modern history.

But in terms of the Arab Israeli conflicts of today, its a matter of accurate reading of the tea leaves. And my position is that the Israeli government stuck on stupid position will rapidly unravel very soon after a a short 62 year track record. The real question is can rational Israeli leadership be found to make the changes non-violent?

 

[Freshgeardude]

I know you cite squat for sources while spouting nonsense which is easily debunked by mainstream sources which anyone can locate with a quick visit to Wikipedia.

bahaha really you are going down this road?

I used to quote wikipedia every single time.


EVERYTHING i say can be checked with wikipedia.

i stopped quoting every little thing because no matter how many times its been said you with sources, you come around with your corner of the internet sources claiming the opposite.


if you want to check wikipedia on where the israeli/palestinian conflict came from you will find exactly what I have said in the past on how the HAGANAH was created and how it was used to protect the jewish settlements.

 

[Freshgeardude]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And my position is that the Israeli government stuck on stupid position will rapidly unravel very soon after a a short 62 year track record. The real question is can rational Israeli leadership be found to make the changes non-violent?

israel has had its position the same way since 1948 when they were attacked by 7 arab nations.


that same attitude and position helped it survive in 67, 73 and still today.


stop being so naive to think that somehow it will stop working all of a sudden because you think your theory is going to happen.


history has shown that you have been wrong every time.

show me some evidence that what you have predicted has come true.

 

[Lemon law]

FGD asks, "history has shown that you have been wrong every time."

I was correct in Vietnam, I have been correct in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and even if you don't believe it yet, FGD, I will prove to be correct in the mid-east.

To give you a literary and chess analogy, as Sherlock says, the games a foot, but in terms of where the chess game is, you may think Israel is only in the opening game and doing well, and I think the tea leaves will show the present State of Israel is well into the last stages of a losing end game.

Your mistake FGD may be in who is the better friend of the Israeli State dream, the person like you who demands total Israeli victory or bust, or the position of someone like me that wants a peaceful solution rather than a total Israeli loss?

 

[Freshgeardude]

FGD asks, "history has shown that you have been wrong every time."

I was correct in Vietnam, I have been correct in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and even if you don't believe it yet, FGD, I will prove to be correct in the mid-east.

To give you a literary and chess analogy, as Sherlock says, the games a foot, but in terms of where the chess game is, you may think Israel is only in the opening game and doing well, and I think the tea leaves will show the present State of Israel is well into the last stages of a losing end game.

Your mistake FGD may be in who is the better friend of the Israeli State dream, the person like you who demands total Israeli victory or bust, or the position of someone like me that wants a peaceful solution rather than a total Israeli loss?

i dont give a crap about what youve said anywhere besides the israeli conflict.

there, you have been wrong every time.


now, you have called for israel to be nuked, I dont see that a peaceful solution.

 

[kylebisme]

Do you even know what happened in 629?

I don't know of anything like what you claimed to have happened in 629. Am I to take it you don't know of any source to support your claim?

My question to Kylebisme is why you place such inordinate faith in the true and logical past historical record?

I'm not, and rather I'm simply taking issue with claims which are pure fantasy.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I'm not, and rather I'm simply taking issue with claims which are pure fantasy.

hahahahaaaaa...thats priceless.......coming from a 9/11 conspiracy person.......rofl....self ownership!!

 

[Lemon law]

FGD claims, "now, you have called for israel to be nuked, I dont see that a peaceful solution."

Nor do I advocate that Israel should be nuked or that it will be a peaceful solution. But there is where you miss reality, as long as crazy terrorists and crazy Israeli leaders like Bozo Netanyuhu keep refusing to defuse mid-east tensions, sooner or later it becomes probable that anti-Israel terrorists will acquire various forms of WMD that will be used against Israel. A larger nation like Egypt, Iran, or the USA could even absorb one such massive hit without fatal damage, but a postage stamp sized country like Israel could not.

The question if I am hoping for such a terrorists retaliation against Israel or not is totally irrelevant, because any rational person, regardless of what side they take, has to realize that, unless mud-east tensions are defused, such an eventual WMD use against Israel is a far more than a non-existent alternative. And in fact is an increasingly likely end outcome.

 

[Karl Agathon]

A WMD used against israel = "The Samson Option"