Jetta TDI "Value Edition" becomes cheapest diesel in the U.S

[thedarkwolf]

NM I miss read a post

Anyway my 04 tdi is at 223k miles and still going strong. Just wish it were a manual.

One other cool thing about a diesel is you have to get use to not saying GAS for everything. It is Fuel mileage now, Accelerator pedal, Fuel tank 😉

 

[Kaido]

NM I miss read a post

Anyway my 04 tdi is at 223k miles and still going strong. Just wish it were a manual.

One other cool thing about a diesel is you have to get use to not saying GAS for everything. It is Fuel mileage now, Accelerator pedal, Fuel tank 😉

Hah yeah, we've had to do the same thing with my buddy's all-electric car - it's "fully charged" or has a "low charge" or the "pack is depleted". Plus "motor" instead of "engine", accelerator pedal, and "range" instead of "fuel mileage', hehehe.

 

[chucky2]

For those making gas and diesel comparisons, please keep in mind that diesel vehicles either actually hit their EPA numbers, or in many many cases, exceed them significantly. Gas, you're lucky to hit EPA, and generally, you're under (obviously it depends what your driving style and scenarios are).

Yes there is a price premium both on diesel vs gas when filling up, and yes there is a premium on purchasing a diesel over a comparable gasser. However, comparing the cost of a budget econ engine gasser that is cheap as hell, might approach EPA numbers, but is mind numbingly suck to drive...simply is not really a valid comparison to the diesel given the diesel will actually be nice to drive and yield great mpg.

With diesel, you get every day performance plus great economy, but higher initial price. With budget gasser, you get bottom barrel pricing, crap driving experience (and it doesn't get better as the miles tack on), and maybe making the EPA numbers. With high end gasser, you get premium pricing, great driving experience, and not good fuel economy.

Pick whichever one of those three that works best for you.

Chuck

 

[996GT2]

For those making gas and diesel comparisons, please keep in mind that diesel vehicles either actually hit their EPA numbers, or in many many cases, exceed them significantly. Gas, you're lucky to hit EPA, and generally, you're under (obviously it depends what your driving style and scenarios are).

Yes there is a price premium both on diesel vs gas when filling up, and yes there is a premium on purchasing a diesel over a comparable gasser. However, comparing the cost of a budget econ engine gasser that is cheap as hell, might approach EPA numbers, but is mind numbingly suck to drive...simply is not really a valid comparison to the diesel given the diesel will actually be nice to drive and yield great mpg.

With diesel, you get every day performance plus great economy, but higher initial price. With budget gasser, you get bottom barrel pricing, crap driving experience (and it doesn't get better as the miles tack on), and maybe making the EPA numbers. With high end gasser, you get premium pricing, great driving experience, and not good fuel economy.

Pick whichever one of those three that works best for you.

Chuck

The comparison I did was using a Jetta SE with the 1.8 turbo engine vs. the $2400 more expensive Jetta TDI value edition. The SE 1.8T weighs 155 lbs less than the diesel and is about a second faster to 60. So I don't see how someone can make the argument that the gas version is "mind-numbingly suck" to drive.

Even factoring in the diesel getting 48 mpg (15% better than its EPA rated 42 mpg hwy), it would still take 150,000 miles to break even cost-wise with the 1.8T Jetta getting its EPA rated 36 mpg hwy.

It just doesn't add up for me. I have nothing against diesels personally, I'm just trying to make sense of why someone would pick the diesel over a comparable gas/hybrid when the financials don't work out in favor of the diesel.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think diesels in cars just took too long to get popular here, and now we have gas sippers and hybrids that have caught up with diesels.

The thought of our last horrific encounters with American passenger car diesels, our lack of refining capacity, and our dirty diesel fuel, all held back passenger car diesels for too long.

 

[nwo]

I think diesels in cars just took too long to get popular here, and now we have gas sippers and hybrids that have caught up with diesels.

The thought of our last horrific encounters with American passenger car diesels, our lack of refining capacity, and our dirty diesel fuel, all held back passenger car diesels for too long.

Not only are disel pumps scarce in the US, but it is also more expensive. Disel is actually cheaper than unleaded in Europe so no wonder Disel engines are so popular there. Better MPG than gasoline, cheaper at the pump, and available at nearly every pump.

 

[thedarkwolf]

Diesel pumps being scarce seems to be another one of those myths that keep popping up. Now that I actually own one and have to find diesel pumps they are every freaking where. I haven't actually done the math but it seems that around 3/4s of stations I come across have diesel.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, where I live, if a station has diesel, there tends to be only one or two car diesel pumps, among all the gasoline pumps.

The truck diesel pumps have the bigger nozzles for the higher flow rates to fill the huge tanks, and you usually need an adapter to fill your car from a truck pump, if you have to use one.

One thing that seems to be universal around here, is that the diesel pump, car or truck, is nasty. Covered with black grime.

Finding diesel fuel is not one of my concerns at all, though. I doubt I'd have any trouble.

 

[NetWareHead]

The nice thing about diesel is that it stores far better that gasoline. I am considering doing in the near future is using a heating oil fuel tank to store fuel on site. Companies will deliver diesel to your premises. The idea is to buy it when low price and utilize that all year round. Around here (northern Mass and southern NH) diesel prices skyrocket in the winter because the same oil is used for heating and is in demand. Prices fall sharply around May; there is a state fuel oil subsidy for the poor that expires after April I believe it is. The difference between high and low prices is 60-70 cents a gallon. According to my research, one could easily get a diesel delivery but gasoline deliveries since you can;t just fill up any tank. This is due to the volatile nature of the fuel making it harder and dangerous to stockpile it like diesel.

The truly courageous could also try off-road diesel which is even cheaper. Barring the fact that is it illegal to run this in a motor vehicle, the opportunity to save even more exists. I'd say that 99% of the time only big rigs get their tanks checked and the TDI guys will pass under the radar.

Another point that I have not seen addressed here is the longevity of a typical diesel vs gasoline engine. Typically diesel engines last much longer than gassers.

 

[Jumpem]

Diesel fuel prices are higher because of the higher fuel taxes placed on it aimed at tractor trailers. Consumer level diesel vehicles just get caught by it as well.

 

[skyking]

Diesel fuel prices are higher because of the higher fuel taxes placed on it aimed at tractor trailers. Consumer level diesel vehicles just get caught by it as well.

That is not the only reason. The tax difference is only 6 cents.
There is less diesel than gas in a barrel of oil, for starters, and when the Ultra Low Sulfur standard was adopted, the cost of refinement went up again. It does not make sense at first glance, but it costs more to make a gallon of diesel.
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=9&t=9

 

[Kaido]

Diesel fuel prices are higher because of the higher fuel taxes placed on it aimed at tractor trailers. Consumer level diesel vehicles just get caught by it as well.

The Surprisingly Violent Story Of How The Trucking Industry Killed Fair Prices For Great Diesel Cars

 

[Kaido]

If you include the BlueMotion cars, you can step back up a size to the Golf and get a legit 70MPG.

Those BlueMotion cars are looking pretty tight:

http://jalopnik.com/vw-passat-bluemotion-concept-a-non-hybrid-non-diesel-1497138334

 

[chucky2]

The comparison I did was using a Jetta SE with the 1.8 turbo engine vs. the $2400 more expensive Jetta TDI value edition. The SE 1.8T weighs 155 lbs less than the diesel and is about a second faster to 60. So I don't see how someone can make the argument that the gas version is "mind-numbingly suck" to drive.

Even factoring in the diesel getting 48 mpg (15% better than its EPA rated 42 mpg hwy), it would still take 150,000 miles to break even cost-wise with the 1.8T Jetta getting its EPA rated 36 mpg hwy.

It just doesn't add up for me. I have nothing against diesels personally, I'm just trying to make sense of why someone would pick the diesel over a comparable gas/hybrid when the financials don't work out in favor of the diesel.

And that's my point. It won't get 36mpg highway driven in the same manner and scenarios as the TDI getting 48mpg. After 70k mi when the diesel is just breaking in, the gasser will be losing mpg. My point though was more to the base crap I-4 non-turbo base engine comparisons. Comparing that driving experience to driving a TDI...is just not comparable.

 

[deadken]

That is not the only reason. The tax difference is only 6 cents.
There is less diesel than gas in a barrel of oil, for starters, and when the Ultra Low Sulfur standard was adopted, the cost of refinement went up again. It does not make sense at first glance, but it costs more to make a gallon of diesel.
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=9&t=9

Frankly, I only quickly read through the replies in this thread. But, I don't believe your 6 cents a gallon number to be correct. As a former auto mechanic that became a bus mechanic I can tell you that I have a decent knowledge of different fuel types. The reason that I bring it up is because there are some people who don't know why heating oil is dyed red. The reason is that home heating oil isn't taxed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax). So, the people who enforce tax payments want to be able to tell if someone is using heating oil for a different purpose. Well, believe it or not, there are people who use home heating oil as fuel for their diesel cars and trucks. I gave my brothers friend some parts he needed to set up a filtering system so he could worry less about pumping home heating oil into his diesel pick up truck. Now, please realize that if you take your diesel engine car or truck to the dealership for a warranty engine repair, they will likely check to see if your fuel shows signs of red dye. If it does, they won't do the repair under warranty. Now, do you really think that people risk that for $00.06 a gallon?!? I'm guessing that you believe that there aren't a lot of people who do that, but I think it is just a group of people who you don't know about. Besides, as I'll talk more about later, the diesel engines are typically more robust and therefore less likely to need repair, even more so under the period which is covered under warranty.

I also believe you to be wrong about there being more gas in a barrel of oil compared to diesel. IIRC, there is less gas. The thing is, Kerosene, Jet fuel, Diesel, Home Heating oil, etc... all fight for the same portion that is used to make Diesel fuel. I know that some of the 'light sweet' crude oil that comes from Alaska is used straight (zero refining) to run some diesel engine pumps that help move it through the pipeline. I'll simply state that a lot of what has been said here about Diesel costing more than Gasoline is WRONG. Sure it costs more to buy (which is what ultimately counts to us as consumers) but it doesn't have to cost more as a product (or to produce).

What some people here are missing is that when Mr. Diesel introduced his new engine to the world (IIRC, at an early 1900's Worlds Fair) the beauty of the new engine design was that it pretty much ran on ANYTHING. IIRC, he debuted it running on Peanut oil. That is the reason that a bunch of people take deep fat frying oil away from restaraunts for free (usually the restaurant has to pay a few cents a gallon to have a truck haul it away). They filter it and run it in their diesel engines. Sometimes, you'll need to start the car on regular diesel and then switch to the cooking oil once the car has warmed up. This isn't because the engine needs to be warm, but is because some of the oils will thicken / solidify when they cool. So, people run a section of coolant hose to a piece of copper tubing that runs into their cooking oil fuel tank. Once the car warms up, the other 'fuel' is back to liquid and can be used. So, imagine not having to pay for fuel! Now, anyone want to re-run those break even numbers for diesel vs. gas?!?

Another thing is that a diesel engine typically is much more simple than a gas engine. So, the maintenance costs are usually less. Add to that, as someone else already mentioned, that diesel engines last a lot longer than gas engines. Couple a diesel engine with a manual transmission and you have a powertrain that will likely outlast the rest of the vehicle. Please understand that I know how complicated diesel engines are starting to become. What was such a simple and rugged design is now getting complicated by computer controls and emissions devices. But, I still believe that they are more reliable and last longer then their gas burning couterparts.

 

[skyking]

from my link above:

The Federal excise tax for on-highway diesel fuel of 24.4 cents/gallon is 6 cents per gallon higher the gasoline tax.

That is for motor vehicle use. If you want to burn untaxed fuel on the road system go right ahead. Burn red fuel if you want. Don't complain about road conditions if you do.

 

[Meghan54]

I also believe you to be wrong about there being more gas in a barrel of oil compared to diesel. IIRC, there is less gas.

Well, then, the EPA doesn't know crap, does it? According to their figures, refiners can get 10 gallons of diesel from a barrel of oil or 19 gallons of gas. The rest of the oil left over from either fuel refined ends up as kerosene, jet fuel, etc.

U.S. refineries produce about 19 gallons of motor gasoline from one barrel (42 gallons) of crude oil. The remainder of the barrel yields distillate and residual fuel oils, jet fuel, and many other products

U.S. refineries produce an average of about 10 gallons of diesel fuel from one barrel (42 gallons) of crude oil. The remainder of the barrel yields other petroleum products

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=327&t=9

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=24&t=10

 

[Meghan54]

I took the Jetta TDI automatic out on a test drive. The turbo lag between shifts made it pretty jerky and would throw us all forward without warning. I would only buy this car in stick, for sure.

The stick isn't going to help with turbo lag. If anything, it'll make it worse.

 

[deadken]

I also believe you to be wrong about...

Well, then, the EPA doesn't know crap, does it? ...

Perhaps you'd like to be more careful so you don't some off like such a dick.

I was continuing with a discussion. I don't see the need to make it into an arguement. There is plenty of room in P&N for that.

I said I believed him to be wrong for a reason. I didn't take the time to look it up so I didn't state it as a fact. If I had said that he was wrong, perhaps you coming off like you did would make more sense.

... According to their figures, refiners can get 10 gallons of diesel from a barrel of oil or 19 gallons of gas. The rest of the oil left over from either fuel refined ends up as kerosene, jet fuel, etc. ...

I disagree with what you have said. It's not an either gas or diesel scenario. It's 19 gasoline, and 10 diesel, and etc..

If you want to take things further, I believe you actually get more diesel and other heavier fuels initially from the barrel. It's only through further processing that they get more gasoline:

"Distillation separates the crude oil into unfinished products. However, the products do not naturally exist in crude in the same proportions as the product mix that consumers demand. The biggest difference is that there is too little gasoline and too much heavy oil naturally occurring in crude oil. That is why conversion processes are so important. Their primary purpose is to convert low valued heavy oil into high valued gasoline." (source: Exxon Mobil: A simple guide to oil refining. http://www.exxonmobil.com/Europe-English/Files/Simple_Guide_to_oil_refining.pdf)
BTW: Believe it or not, I knew this long before this current discussion came up. I read a wonderful article in Invention and Technology magazine about hydrocarbon cracking when it came out years ago. Take a look and see if you can find it in their archives. It's a great read.

Would you initially get a larger amount of diesel over gasoline? I don't think so, but it is possible. Could you initially get more fuel that a diesel engine could run on, but a gasoline engine couldn't run on? Yes, quite possibly. You can run a diesel engine on Kerosene, Jet fuel, Fuel oil, etc.. and it'll run quite well (IIRC, you'll want to add some lubricants to keep the injector pump happy if you are planning to do this long term). So, whereas you say you get more gasoline over diesel fuel, that is only with processing that turns other fuels that a diesel could run on into gasoline. So, it is possible that you do in fact get more gallons of fuel that a diesel engine could run on out of a refined barrel of oil (not talking about processing) over gasoline from that same barrel of oil.

To oversimplify it one more time, you can run a diesel engine on regular engine oil. I've seen it done where it was faster and easier to prime the fuel system with overhead oil lines instead of setting up a priming pump. So, if you wanted, you could likely cut regular oil (not even refined) with some diesel fuel and have a mix that a diesel engine would be happy to run on. The reason I suggest cutting it a bit would be to keep from blowing the tips of the injectors off. Yes, it'll still work and work fine (go ahead, ask me how I know....) but, you lose some atomization which is beneficial to max power and emissions. The emissions from running a diesel engine on oil wouldn't be pretty. So, we don't do that. But, please, don't come off as knowing how a diesel engine works based on a quick google of how much gas is in a barrel of crude. Some of us here have real world experience.

Going a little bit further, I'd say that you quoted the EIA, which as far as I could see wasn't related to the EPA as you stated as fact. That *might* be getting to the point of splitting hairs or just flaunting how inaccurate your post was. So, I put it down here on the bottom. Please, feel free to show me how the EIA is part of the EPA and I'll gladly, once again, point out how I said 'as far as I could see' rather than making a statement of fact.

 

[NetWareHead]

I also believe you to be wrong about there being more gas in a barrel of oil compared to diesel. IIRC, there is less gas. The thing is, Kerosene, Jet fuel, Diesel, Home Heating oil, etc... all fight for the same portion that is used to make Diesel fuel. I know that some of the 'light sweet' crude oil that comes from Alaska is used straight (zero refining) to run some diesel engine pumps that help move it through the pipeline. I'll simply state that a lot of what has been said here about Diesel costing more than Gasoline is WRONG. Sure it costs more to buy (which is what ultimately counts to us as consumers) but it doesn't have to cost more as a product (or to produce).

We need to know what kind of engines are being run up there. Sure you know that not all diesels use #2 comparable fuel oil. For an engine to be able to consume straight crude oil, that is probably equivalent to #6 or bunker fuel, same kind used to power the monstrous diesels in ocean going ships.

What some people here are missing is that when Mr. Diesel introduced his new engine to the world (IIRC, at an early 1900's Worlds Fair) the beauty of the new engine design was that it pretty much ran on ANYTHING. IIRC, he debuted it running on Peanut oil. That is the reason that a bunch of people take deep fat frying oil away from restaraunts for free (usually the restaurant has to pay a few cents a gallon to have a truck haul it away). They filter it and run it in their diesel engines. Sometimes, you'll need to start the car on regular diesel and then switch to the cooking oil once the car has warmed up. This isn't because the engine needs to be warm, but is because some of the oils will thicken / solidify when they cool. So, people run a section of coolant hose to a piece of copper tubing that runs into their cooking oil fuel tank. Once the car warms up, the other 'fuel' is back to liquid and can be used. So, imagine not having to pay for fuel! Now, anyone want to re-run those break even numbers for diesel vs. gas?!?

:thumbsup: Yep. My family's restaurant generates barrels of the stuff per week. Once the warranty on my TDI expires, I'm going to seriously consider doing this.

Another thing is that a diesel engine typically is much more simple than a gas engine. So, the maintenance costs are usually less. Add to that, as someone else already mentioned, that diesel engines last a lot longer than gas engines. Couple a diesel engine with a manual transmission and you have a powertrain that will likely outlast the rest of the vehicle.

yep. it took me a little longer to find a stick version of my TDI but I insisted on stick for this reason too. Plus it's fun to row your own gears 😛

 

[dguy6789]

I'm failing to see the advantage of this over something like the stock Civic. As mentioned the Civic non hybrid gets mileage right in that ballpark in the real world using regular cheaper gasoline.

 

[deadken]

We need to know what kind of engines are being run up there. Sure you know that not all diesels use #2 comparable fuel oil. For an engine to be able to consume straight crude oil, that is probably equivalent to #6 or bunker fuel, same kind used to power the monstrous diesels in ocean going ships.

I'm can't remember specifics at the moment, but I do know that Light Sweet Crude is low sulphur right out of the ground. Perhaps it was that.

Yeah, that bunker fuel is pretty rough with emissions. I heard that they wanted to regulate it so that ships coming into ports couldn't run that starting a few miles out. It's that polluting.

Good luck on your conversion. I'd suggest joining a forum. There are some great resources out there if you dig a little. I saw a nice set up with 55Gal drums that didn't take much room and his plumbing and filtering system was compact and efficient. With 4 or 6 drums (stacked type of set up), you get 220 or 330 gallons of capacity without killing a bunch of garage space. The trick is to get the plumbing set up right, so there is no lifting the oil up to the second rack. In a warm enough climate, you wouldn't even have to have it inside the garage.

 

[NetWareHead]

I'm can't remember specifics at the moment, but I do know that Light Sweet Crude is low sulphur right out of the ground. Perhaps it was that.

It probably has something to do with the sulfur content. Unless removed beforehand, sulfur in the exhaust stream combines with water vapor released from burning diesel and forms sulfuric acid. Eventually the entire exhaust end of your engine will get corroded. This is why we have ultra low sulfur diesel nowadays. ULS diesel allows for emissions devices, particulate filters, catalytic converters, egr etc etc... to be placed in the exhaust stream. Stuff that would probably not survive a hot corrosive sulfur environment.

I was more surprised about the ability to use straight crude in an engine not because of the sulfur but more because of the fuel viscosity. Most of the crude I've seen does not flow very well (unless pre-heated) and would gum up the engine's injectors.

 

[_Rick_]

But with much less torque, which is what defines an engine's in-gear acceleration.
Sure, the 0-60 might be slower, mostly due to increased weight, but 50-70 in 5th is usually much smoother in a diesel, than in an equally economic NA gas engine.
Also, you may get slightly better fuel economy at higher speeds in the Diesel. The lower rpm and naturally longer gearing help there.
On the other hand, in town, the increased weight of the Diesel engine will reduce fuel economy.

As for refining crude into gas/fuel: the primary fractions will probably slightly favor fuel, and beyond that you can use cracking to determine what secondary fractions you would like to favor. If your cracking is tuned to produce more light fractions, that's what you will get, but I'm almost certain, that refineries can be tuned to generate more longer chained secondary fractions.

 

[deadken]

...
As for refining crude into gas/fuel: the primary fractions will probably slightly favor fuel, and beyond that you can use cracking to determine what secondary fractions you would like to favor. If your cracking is tuned to produce more light fractions, that's what you will get, but I'm almost certain, that refineries can be tuned to generate more longer chained secondary fractions.

If by primary fractions you are talking about the first products after distillation, I believe that gasoling is only around %25. So, yes, I agree that you could likely get more Diesel than Gasoline out of the same barrel of oil if you wanted to.

For anyone who is interested, here is the article from Invention & Technology magazine that I referred to earlier. The issue came out in 2005 which is likely why I was fuzzy on the specifics. I just re-read it, because as I said earlier it is a great article. I did see some type-o's or errors that likely occured when the early magazines were digitized for the archives. Please don't let a few bugs ruin the overall experience:
http://50.57.231.74/IT/content/wizard-octane-0