Jesus and Paul : Peter Jenning reporting.Tonight at 8

[isasir]

Peter, Paul and Mary's son?

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: fredtam

Originally posted by: glen

Originally posted by: fredtam
Jesus was not a free love advocating communist hippie that said anything is ok as long as the participants are ok with it.

I don't think He is a communist, but he CLEARLY advocates consensual adult behavior.

Originally posted by: fredtam
Please explain to me why you think disagreeing with homosexuality does not conform to those two "commandments".

It is not rejected by them, and clearly can fit into the love your neighbor context. If you neighbor wants to be loved that way, seems like it is fine with Jesus. If you neighbor does not like love like that, then it is not ok. The second commandment CLEARLY allows the "neighbors," rather than Leviticus, to define how they personally want to be treated.

Originally posted by: fredtam
God said those things in the old testament and also condemned homosexuality. Are you saying that Jesus was sent to say "look guys God fvcked up. This is how it should be."

Yes.
Not to say God messed up; but, to say that people have misunderstood.
And, I am sure you know the old laws are simply meant to shepherd folks UNTIL Christ?s arrival.
The nature of God's relationship in the Prophetic religions is clearly in a covenantal way, whether we look at Adam, Noah, Abraham, or Moses. Each has slightly different covenants with God. This really confused people, and even today it does. Repeatedly, Christ tries to make it very clear and simple for people. They get hung up on Leviticus today, and they made the same mistake in Christ?s time on earth. Sort of like yourself - it is about putting different things into your mouth, but the relevance is pertinent:

Originally posted by: The NIV Bible
Matthew 15


Clean and Unclean

1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[1] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[2] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[3] ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[4] "
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "
12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"
13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[5] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

I think Christ clearly explains that the religious hierarchy has misinterpreted and misused "God's Laws." Not so much that the Laws are wrong, but the humans applying them have done the wrong.

Originally posted by: fredtam
Also you are so quick to acknowledge the embellishments of Paul why then could these saying that are found in Mathew not be embellished and taken out of context.

I agree. Once one decides the bible is not inerrant, one opens up a whole new can of worms. When two parts conflict, which do you throw out? You have to Pray for knowledge.

Originally posted by: fredtam
Also Jesus formed his own opinions and may not reflect those of God. He never claimed to speak for him.

He claimed to be God.
This is a fundamental belief of Christians.
Jesus? opinions = God?s opinions

Originally posted by: fredtam
Secondly why did you choose to drag me into a homosexuality/bible debate?

Well, that is the gist of the difference between Jesus and Paul.
It gets to the heart of the matter:
What spin did Paul put on Jesus? message to help him (Paul) sell it to the world?

Paul is the best salesman for Christ the world has ever known, but he also changed the message some.
Bait and Switch?
Human error?
End justify the means?

Well your argument is sort of wasted on me because I am not a christian. I am however a religous history fanatic. First I will tell you that Jesus never said he was God. Secondly you seem to like to quote whatever version of the Bible best fits your argument.
The old laws that were to be discarded had to do with ritual practices and not the basic moral fiber of the Old Testament. Early Christians were nothing more than reformist Jews. When talking of things like Pauls embellishments to spread the religion we are talking about things like circumcision and which foods could be eaten. The Old Testament was still the basis of the religion and in his letters to the churches (where homosexuality is condemned) he is not embellishing but simply informing them what God said about their practices. Remember before anything else Jesus was a Jew and firmly held the beliefs of the Old testament. If anyone is embellishing the Bible to make it more palatable it is you.

I pretty much agree with you on this. I have some serious doubts about the bible but from what I've read and studied over the years Jesus never advocated immorality. Although he did away with the 10 commandments he still made it clear that morality was a very serious issue. He spoke out against adultrey, he preached to a woman who was practicing fornication and he made it known that in order for sins to be forgiven he would shed his own blood. So for someone to say that Jesus condoned homosexuality that would be stretching things way out of context.

 

[boggsie]

Originally posted by: fredtam

Jesus never said he was God.

What, in particular, leads you to this conclusion?

If one examines the Greek, it is apparent that Jesus taught in a way that was profoundly different. He taught as one whom had divine inspiration and more importantly, divine authority.

Jesus also profoundly changed the way that his followers were to pray to the Father, by consistently utilizing the term Abba in reference to God -and- he taught his deciples that through Him (Jesus), they (the deciples) could also attain this level of intimacy with the Father.

Jesus also referenced himself as being One with the Father.