Jerusalem Palestinians prefer Israel

[SamurAchzar]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That question really depend on which Muslims we are talking about.

No, it does not depend on anything. No one talked about Gaza, Gaza is not Israel, it's a hostile territory. I was talking about those that live within Israeli borders and are Israeli citizens.

And we are talking about a groups who parents parents parents used to have full citizen rights on the land of their birth.

Citizens of what country would that be, exactly?

We would not permit such a travesty to occur in the USA, yet too many of us assume a Jew should have more human rights than a Palestinian. And support a State of Israel built on such an unjust and unsustainable foundation. Why?????????

Those are not American values, those are the values of Israeli government pigs and thieves.

I don't understand - are you complaining that Palestinians in Gaza, who are ruled by Hamas - their elected officials - aren't getting equal rights to Israeli citizens? That's a very odd complaint.

 

[Lemon law]

As sammy says, "I don't understand - are you complaining that Palestinians in Gaza, who are ruled by Hamas - their elected officials - aren't getting equal rights to Israeli citizens? That's a very odd complaint.

Wrong again Sammy, long before Hamas got elevated to Gaza leadership, Israel was embargoing them and restricting their rights, of course the same can say for the Israeli leadership in the West Bank, where there is no Hamas leadership for Israel to bitch about. Yet still Israeli restricts Palestinian rights in the West Bank, settles on their land on an ongoing basis, embargoes their economy, making it not an odd complaint and in fact the Israeli government common denominator treatment of the Palestinian people since 1948.

In short Sammy, you are FOS. There is no logical basis for your claims. And worse yet, Israel will never find any possible acceptance in the Mid-east until there is a Palestinian State. Yet for 43 years running, Israel can never have any valid claim to any land in the West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem. Time is rapidly running out for Israeli credibility, as it is I wonder why the larger world even bothers asking Israeli to be a peace partner, and its very soon likely that the larger world will simply demand Israel get the hell out of the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the Golan heights. And be done with it.

As for Israeli political problems in dealing with its crazy settler parties and extremists Jews, that is simply Israel' Israel problem.

 

[JEDIYoda]

There is no logical basis for your claims.

now thats funny coming from you -- Lemon law -- Logic...lolol

 

[EagleKeeper]

Israel was restricting rights for her current enemies that she inherited from her former enemies.

These were people that had set out to destroy her. And you expect that she would give them full rights to come back to attack her wihtout any repercusions?

Jews are not Christians - they do not have the "moral" obligation to turn the other cheek to a religion that wants to terminate the unbelievers.

 

[EagleKeeper]

As sammy says, "I don't understand - are you complaining that Palestinians in Gaza, who are ruled by Hamas - their elected officials - aren't getting equal rights to Israeli citizens? That's a very odd complaint.

Wrong again Sammy, long before Hamas got elevated to Gaza leadership, Israel was embargoing them and restricting their rights, of course the same can say for the Israeli leadership in the West Bank, where there is no Hamas leadership for Israel to bitch about. Yet still Israeli restricts Palestinian rights in the West Bank, settles on their land on an ongoing basis, embargoes their economy, making it not an odd complaint and in fact the Israeli government common denominator treatment of the Palestinian people since 1948.

In short Sammy, you are FOS. There is no logical basis for your claims. And worse yet, Israel will never find any possible acceptance in the Mid-east until there is a Palestinian State. Yet for 43 years running, Israel can never have any valid claim to any land in the West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem. Time is rapidly running out for Israeli credibility, as it is I wonder why the larger world even bothers asking Israeli to be a peace partner, and its very soon likely that the larger world will simply demand Israel get the hell out of the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the Golan heights. And be done with it.

As for Israeli political problems in dealing with its crazy settler parties and extremists Jews, that is simply Israel' Israel problem.

Where was the demand for a Palestinians state for the first 20+ years? Perfect opportunity. Land was controlled by the Arabs - no need to argue over settlements, etc.

Or was the demand only when they realized that they could not also get the land of Israel.

Palestinans always seem to be a day late and dollar short.

 

[Lemon law]

At least I can agree with the Common Courtesy Statement of, "Palestinans always seem to be a day late and dollar short."

But the question is, will it always be so? We could have said the same about the African slaves in America, the Apartheid Government of South Africa, and many other things, but that fine day did come.

But I assert, the days of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are numbered. When and how the Israeli occupation ends is just one question. The other question may be if Israeli survives as a Jewish state or will Israel become a unified secular State in which Jews are only a large minority.

Many inside and outside of Israel are already asking that end Jewish state question, and without the somewhat rapid establishment of a Palestinians State, the final outcome of Israel ending up as a secular State becomes far more probable.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Refollow up to what seemed to be "overlooked"

Those are not American values, those are the values of Israeli government pigs and thieves.

Yet the thieves of '48 should be rewarded?
What did those Palestinians do for 20 years when they had full access/control over their land.
Did they request statehood or were they busy plotting with the Arab nations how to take over all of the Palestine Mandate?
Are they interested in statehood at the present? Apparently not - the Israel government has opened a window of opportunity for them to talk - where is Abbas? Like the last opportunity, they are ignoring it until to late.
Just wondering

As CC also stated, the Palestinians are a day late and dollar short. this seems to be the way they operate

 

[Lemon law]

Ok EK, lets address your contention of,"Originally Posted by EagleKeeper View Post
Yet the thieves of '48 should be rewarded?
What did those Palestinians do for 20 years when they had full access/control over their land.
Did they request statehood or were they busy plotting with the Arab nations how to take over all of the Palestine Mandate?
Are they interested in statehood at the present? Apparently not - the Israel government has opened a window of opportunity for them to talk - where is Abbas? Like the last opportunity, they are ignoring it until to late.
Just wondering"

The first thing we have to ask, is where did all the Present day Palestinian refugees come from? And the basic answer is, they too lived in the former British mandate of Palestine that became the State of Israel in 1948. Often living peacefully with many Jewish immigrants who had been filtering onto the former British Mandate of Palestine for the last 60 years. But fact, as of 1948, the majority of the land in the future State of Israel was owned by Palestinians.

And then we have to realize quite another thing, it was not Palestinians who then attacked the State of Israel in 1948, and in fact it was the Surrounding Arab States with their standing armies that attacked the State of Israel. After all, most Palestinians lived in simple farming villages and did not even have the access to guns to fight.

But by in large, Israeli farming villagers and Palestinian farming villagers did the only sensible thing to do when invading and defending armies choose to make their homes ground zero in some battlefield, namely get the hell out leaving homes and possessions behind. After the armies battled it out, better organized Jewish terrorists beat back Arab state armies barely, which should then allowed both Palestinian and Jewish farmers and land owners to return to their land and resume life as before.

But that is exactly where the newly minted nation of Israel took the wrong and low road, because when Jewish farmers came back, they were welcomed home and Palestinians farmers who had also fled had their land confiscated and were forced out of Israel at the point of a gun.

Which makes your initial statement of, "Yet the thieves of '48 should be rewarded?" When the only thieves of 1948 was the government of Israel. It was not Palestinians who attacked the State of Israel, it was the Arab States. So why, EK, should the Palestinians be collectively punished which is illegal under the very UN doctrine that formed the State of Israel.

The only partial justification Israel may have had in 1948 was to truly maintain a minority of SOME Palestinians had in fact joined Arab armies, but since Israel did not do this in any case by case basis, it simply amounts to Israeli illegal land seizures on a massive scale.

Which is why the issue of the right to return still exists and will never go away.

But in 1948, no one really cared about the Palestinians, so Israel got away with it at the time. But if Israel did the same to its Arab nationals in 1948, the Arab armies would have certainly renewed the attack.

Well fast forward to 2011, and now the world community is starting to care about both the Palestinian State and the Israeli danger to mid-east peace.

Hope that explains it to you Eagle Keeper, because your version of history is totally false. Of course, post 1948, Israel has added more Palestinians into its dual concentration camps, and those of are mainly former Jordanian residents of the West Bank that suddenly found themselves occupied by Israel in 1967.

And 43 years later, there is seemingly nothing more permanent than a temporary illegal Israeli occupation.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Ok EK, lets address your contention of,

"Originally Posted by EagleKeeper View Post
Yet the thieves of '48 should be rewarded?
What did those Palestinians do for 20 years when they had full access/control over their land.
Did they request statehood or were they busy plotting with the Arab nations how to take over all of the Palestine Mandate?
Are they interested in statehood at the present? Apparently not - the Israel government has opened a window of opportunity for them to talk - where is Abbas? Like the last opportunity, they are ignoring it until to late.
Just wondering"

The first thing we have to ask, is where did all the Present day Palestinian refugees come from? And the basic answer is, they too lived in the former British mandate of Palestine that became the State of Israel in 1948. Often living peacefully with many Jewish immigrants who had been filtering onto the former British Mandate of Palestine for the last 60 years. But fact, as of 1948, the majority of the land in the future State of Israel was owned by Palestinians.

And then we have to realize quite another thing, it was not Palestinians who then attacked the State of Israel in 1948, and in fact it was the Surrounding Arab States with their standing armies that attacked the State of Israel. After all, most Palestinians lived in simple farming villages and did not even have the access to guns to fight.

Many of the Palestinians that left the state of Israel did so based on promises from the Arab nations that they would be able to return with complete control of Israel.
There were some Palestinians that chose to stay.
There were some that chose to fight on the side of the Arabs.

Those that did not support Israel (fighters and/or voluntary refugees) were then enemies and should not be granted an automatic right to return to their land. They chose the opposite side and lost. Why should they be rewarded?

Granted that some Palestinians lost their property during the fighting and afterwords. That is what happens during a war. The Allies did not reimburse people of the Axis nations for land that was destroyed. Just like Germany did not do the same for other European nationals.

But by in large, Israeli farming villagers and Palestinian farming villagers did the only sensible thing to do when invading and defending armies choose to make their homes ground zero in some battlefield, namely get the hell out leaving homes and possessions behind. After the armies battled it out, better organized Jewish terrorists beat back Arab state armies barely, which should then allowed both Palestinian and Jewish farmers and land owners to return to their land and resume life as before.

Those Palestinians that stayed, still had property. Not every Palestinian left Israel from within the '48 boundaries and after the conclusion of the '48 war.
But that is exactly where the newly minted nation of Israel took the wrong and low road, because when Jewish farmers came back, they were welcomed home and Palestinians farmers who had also fled had their land confiscated and were forced out of Israel at the point of a gun.

There was no purification done after the conclusion of the '48 conflict. There were still Palestinians living in Israel. There were Palestinians that existed outside of Israel that wanted to take over Israel also.
Israel had no way of delineating "good" Palestinians from "bad" Palestinians that lived outside her borders. And apparently history has shown, neither could the Arabs. The Palestinians were more than willing to destroy Arab lands for their own purposes.

Which makes your initial statement of, "Yet the thieves of '48 should be rewarded?" When the only thieves of 1948 was the government of Israel. It was not Palestinians who attacked the State of Israel, it was the Arab States. So why, EK, should the Palestinians be collectively punished which is illegal under the very UN doctrine that formed the State of Israel.

The Palestinians are not being collectively punished. Only those that went against Israel in one way or another. And the Palestinians collectively may have had no qualms about destruction of Israel. there are always a minority of opinions floating around - there was a minority of Palestinians that wanted to live/stick by with the Jews. Those were the ones that have prospered. The rest have reaped what they had sewn - distrust

The only partial justification Israel may have had in 1948 was to truly maintain a minority of SOME Palestinians had in fact joined Arab armies, but since Israel did not do this in any case by case basis, it simply amounts to Israeli illegal land seizures on a massive scale.

Which is why the issue of the right to return still exists and will never go away.

But in 1948, no one really cared about the Palestinians, so Israel got away with it at the time. But if Israel did the same to its Arab nationals in 1948, the Arab armies would have certainly renewed the attack.

Well fast forward to 2011, and now the world community is starting to care about both the Palestinian State and the Israeli danger to mid-east peace.

Hope that explains it to you Eagle Keeper, because your version of history is totally false. Of course, post 1948, Israel has added more Palestinians into its dual concentration camps, and those of are mainly former Jordanian residents of the West Bank that suddenly found themselves occupied by Israel in 1967.

And 43 years later, there is seemingly nothing more permanent than a temporary illegal Israeli occupation.

And why did the Palestinians that profess to want a state, did not make a single noise about having a state for the 20 years when they had the land.

Arab nations were created; why did the Palestinians get the "shaft" w/ respect to land that was intended for them.

Where are the Palestinians now w/ respect to getting their own state?
They refused to show up for talks until the last moment - what were they trying to prove?
They walk away from those talks when they can not have their way.

Now there is another opening for talks being provided by the Israeli government, not the world under the auspices of a third party. Yet, the Palestinians have not made an effort to talk. They want instead someone else to initiate the talks.

What does that prove - they have no confidence in themselves?

 

[woolfe9999]

Liar liar pants on fire Sammy.

First you say Palestinians prefer Israel, but wait that is a lie, when the polling population is not Palestinians with no Israeli citizenship rights and in fact consists of Arab nationals that do have almost full Israeli citizen ship rights.

Why is this distinction even relevant? The Arabs of East Jerusalem are not Israeli citizens but are given many benefits of citizenship, much like someone in the U.S. who has a green card. What the poll shows is that when they get a taste of the benefits of Israeli citizenship, they'd sure as hell rather have that than be any part of a Palestinian state. And the comparison is not between Israel and what is now the West Bank and Gaza, but rather what the West Bank and Gaza would be if there was an independent state there, after some peace settlement. They'd rather live under the governance of their hated enemies than in any independent state governed by other Palestinians. It's embarrassing to the Palestinian leadership to say the least.

 

[Lemon law]

And why did the Palestinians that profess to want a state, did not make a single noise about having a state for the 20 years when they had the land. ( Palestinians never had a state so where do you come off saying they ever did? )

Arab nations were created; why did the Palestinians get the "shaft" w/ respect to land that was intended for them. ( All the Arab States pre-existed long before 1948 so where do you get the idea any were newly created? As for the former British mandate whose population was made up of Arab Nationals, Palestinians, and Jewish immigrants seeking land
in the 80 years up to the 1948 formation of the State of Israel, it was promised by early Israeli leaders as a price of State hood, that Israeli would grant equal rights to residents regardless if they were Jewish Arab National, or Palestinians. When Arab armies attacked,
not the Palestinian's fault, that Israeli promise got ignored. As for the Arab States on the losing side of the 1948 war, they took in their Arab Nationals, but the Palestinians got no such Arab State help. So in that sense, The Arab States are also high on the Villain list also. )

Where are the Palestinians now w/ respect to getting their own state?
They refused to show up for talks until the last moment - what were they trying to prove?
They walk away from those talks when they can not have their way. ( They have simply learned Israel Israel does nothing but talk and settle, talk and settle, and why play that game. That Israeli propaganda line died at Annapolis and everyone knows the Israeli fraud. As long as Israel gains advantage by settling on lands it can never own, they have always done that. That is why a complete settlement freeze is needed while talks go on. )

Now there is another opening for talks being provided by the Israeli government, not the world under the auspices of a third party. Yet, the Palestinians have not made an effort to talk. They want instead someone else to initiate the talks. ( Because the Palestinians can't free themselves any more that American slaves could in the civil war. Or that South African blacks could in Apartheid South Africa. Its going to take the pressure of the international community to force Israel out. That pressure has only started to build, and I expect you and fellow Israeli fan clubbers will have to see the pressure really rubbed in your face in the near future. Right now, the world has not quite yet given up on Obama and the USA quite yet. But the first thing to totally go may be the Israeli blockade of Gaza. )

What does that prove - they have no confidence in themselves?

( No it more proves that you are delusional. The Palestinians know that violence on their part will not work, and right now Palestinian behavior is far more morally elevating than the behavior of Israel. )

 

[EagleKeeper]

Who is talking about violence?

Hamas is - ignore them, they have no interest in the welfare of the Palestinians.

Abbas has a chance with the Israeli government ready to split if there is no peace talks (either completed or making progess < unsure which>). There is an opening that one can drive a Mack truck through in terms of PR and opportunity

But Abbas is not showing up. Similar to the 10 month settlement freeze. Why?
Is he trying to show that he can force the Israeli government to fall? That is a gamble, the next may not be so willing to talk.

Does he feel that he needs the blessing of the international comunity or a big brother to talk? No gonads?

Unsure how to talk/negotiate? - there are professional Palestinian negotiators that ahve talked with Israel previously - they can guide him in preparing the proper verbage to express what he is attempting to state.

 

[Lemon law]

Who is talking about violence?

Hamas is - ignore them, they have no interest in the welfare of the Palestinians.

Abbas has a chance with the Israeli government ready to split if there is no peace talks (either completed or making progess < unsure which>). There is an opening that one can drive a Mack truck through in terms of PR and opportunity

But Abbas is not showing up. Similar to the 10 month settlement freeze. Why?
Is he trying to show that he can force the Israeli government to fall? That is a gamble, the next may not be so willing to talk.

Does he feel that he needs the blessing of the international comunity or a big brother to talk? No gonads?

Unsure how to talk/negotiate? - there are professional Palestinian negotiators that ahve talked with Israel previously - they can guide him in preparing the proper verbage to express what he is attempting to state.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again more EK delusion. Damn right there are many professional Palestinian negotiators who have been working since OSLO for some viable mid-east State.

Sadly for your contention EK, everyone one of them lost all remaining faith In Israel propaganda at the Annapolis peace conference. They too demand an Israeli settlement freeze or negotiations are simply a charade.

The greater downside for Israel is that Obama, who only asked but did not demand a Israeli settlement freeze, may be the last US President with any credibility to broker Mid-East peace talks. After all, from Nixon on, almost every US president has taken a stab at brokering mid-east peace talks. And all of them have failed. To some extent because the US influence of Israeli lobbying is too politically strong in the USA, and hence the USA cannot be an unbiased and honest broker.

And thus its unlikely that the USA will ever be trusted to be the broker of a mid-east peace, and the next broker of a mid-east peace will not be asking Israel for a settlement freeze, they will be demanding it at a minimum. Or the UN will simply cut to the chase and declare a Palestinian State. And if the USA is the lone ranger in vetoing it in the UN, then the USA will pay a political price too high to ignore.

Not only is Israel on international probation for its behavior in the last decade, so is the USA. As a US citizen its a galling thing to admit, but the USA has done nothing but alienate its allies while emboldening our enemies. And as the Israeli government seems stuck on following its religious zanies and settler parties into the toilet, at a certain point the USA better not follow the Israeli lead of jumping off the nearest cliff.

Israel has already lost Turkey in the last year, Egypt is likely to quit helping Israel embargo Gaza, international support is building for Abbas, and any Israeli international support is rapidly unraveling as we speak.

And somewhat like Saddam Hussain, Netanyuhu vaingloriously tries to ride the tiger, and at a single slip, its the tiger that will gobble up Netanyuhu and his merry band of nutty settler parties.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Simple question:
Where is Abbas?
He has a chance again to work for a settlement of peace the second time in a year and again is AWOL.

To make a state takes work - apparently the Palestinians are not willing to work to have their own state.

We have a child pretending to be an adult but refuses to act like one.
How can the child be taken seriously?
You can not treat it as an adult; it does not want the responsiblities required of it.
You can not tolerate it as a child because of the tantrums.

 

[Lemon law]

Simple question:
Where is Abbas?
He has a chance again to work for a settlement of peace the second time in a year and again is AWOL.

To make a state takes work - apparently the Palestinians are not willing to work to have their own state.

We have a child pretending to be an adult but refuses to act like one.
How can the child be taken seriously?
You can not treat it as an adult; it does not want the responsiblities required of it.
You can not tolerate it as a child because of the tantrums.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We already debated that question, Abbas is an adult, and Netanyuhu as an adult is trying to convince the world that Israel is Santa Claus. Everyone with brain one knows Israel is lying, until there is a settlement freeze, there is no point in the farce of peace negotiations. Because all Israel has been doing for 43 years running is talking, settling on land it can't ever own, and stalling and stalling and stalling.

Of course we can't include EK as anyone with brain one, because you are so pro-Israeli biased that you can't think straight.

 

[Hacp]

So says this poll:

http://pechterpolls.com/?p=399

A majority prefers to live as Israeli citizens, even if they have to relocate in order to avoid being annexed to PA control.

For anyone with some knowledge of the situation, this isn't surprising. Most Arabs prefer the Western standard of living and freedom provided by Israel to the corrupt, oppressive alternative presented by Arab rule.

An analysis of the poll:

BUT.. but.. government knows whats best. It can decide who wants what for you.

 

[JEDIYoda]

We already debated that question, Abbas is an adult, and Netanyuhu as an adult is trying to convince the world that Israel is Santa Claus. Everyone with brain one knows Israel is lying, until there is a settlement freeze, there is no point in the farce of peace negotiations. Because all Israel has been doing for 43 years running is talking, settling on land it can't ever own, and stalling and stalling and stalling.

Of course we can't include EK as anyone with brain one, because you are so pro-Israeli biased that you can't think straight.

I find it perplexing and sad that you of all people cannot see that Israel suggesting round the clock Peace talks plays right into the Palestinians hand..

As it presently stands the Palestinians have no leg to stand on when it comes to wanting peace!
Hell, Abbas would lose nothing by sitting down for face to face Peace talks.
Israel has everything to lose. In fact had Abbas agreed to face to face peace talks the ball would have been in Israels`s court to keep the talks going!
As it is...the Palestinians do not want a lasting Peace. They want a Peace that includes the Right to return--never happen and they want all of Jerusalem as their capital -- never happen.


You speak of a settlement freeze--you mean the one that just took place during which time the Palestinians did nothing towards Peace??

Those shrooms must be good this time around!!

 

[thepd7]

We'll do a little contest - to win you just have to name one Arab/Muslim country in which MUSLIMS enjoy greater freedoms than they do in Israel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That question really depend on which Muslims we are talking about. If we are only talking about some Arab nationals in Israel with semi full citizen rights we get one answer, if we are talking about Palestinian Muslims in the West Bank and Gaza, we get a totally different answer. Because that latter group, at birth, has fewer human rights than any group in the entire world bar none!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And we are talking about a groups who parents parents parents used to have full citizen rights on the land of their birth.

We would not permit such a travesty to occur in the USA, yet too many of us assume a Jew should have more human rights than a Palestinian. And support a State of Israel built on such an unjust and unsustainable foundation. Why?????????

Those are not American values, those are the values of Israeli government pigs and thieves.

As sammy says, "I don't understand - are you complaining that Palestinians in Gaza, who are ruled by Hamas - their elected officials - aren't getting equal rights to Israeli citizens? That's a very odd complaint.

Wrong again Sammy, long before Hamas got elevated to Gaza leadership, Israel was embargoing them and restricting their rights, of course the same can say for the Israeli leadership in the West Bank, where there is no Hamas leadership for Israel to bitch about. Yet still Israeli restricts Palestinian rights in the West Bank, settles on their land on an ongoing basis, embargoes their economy, making it not an odd complaint and in fact the Israeli government common denominator treatment of the Palestinian people since 1948.

In short Sammy, you are FOS. There is no logical basis for your claims. And worse yet, Israel will never find any possible acceptance in the Mid-east until there is a Palestinian State. Yet for 43 years running, Israel can never have any valid claim to any land in the West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem. Time is rapidly running out for Israeli credibility, as it is I wonder why the larger world even bothers asking Israeli to be a peace partner, and its very soon likely that the larger world will simply demand Israel get the hell out of the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the Golan heights. And be done with it.

As for Israeli political problems in dealing with its crazy settler parties and extremists Jews, that is simply Israel' Israel problem.

You never answered his question.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Hard questions are not answered; they are deflected.

He posts a thread on an opening for the Palestinians to force talks with Israel; yet drops out once the Palestinians do not follow through.

Refuses to answer why the Palestinians wasted 8+ months on talks when the freeze was in effect. Is it because the Palestinians were stalling to see if Israel would extend - showing the Palestinians that they had leverage. Israel did not cave The Palestinians were playing poker, bluffed and were called.

The US bails on the overall issue and the Palestinians call for someone else to start the talks. Yet Israel opened the door. Again the Palestinians fail.

They are incapable of being a honest partner in the peace process. How can they not show up and then complain with a straight face.

Jordan was correct in kicking them out of the country - Jordan knew back then that the Palestinians can not be trusted

 

[Scotteq]

Jordan was correct in kicking them out of the country - Jordan knew back then that the Palestinians can not be trusted

IMHO, there's a lot more to it than that: By refusing to help Palestinians with anything more than basic humanitarian aid they'd extend to any refugees, Jordan (and Syria, and Lebanon) get to keep the issue in the fore and keep pressure on Israel. Throwing them out is one example, but as another: Many, if not most, of the Palestinian "refugees" were actually born in the lands they currently live in. The wars were 30, 40, 50 years ago, after all. So an entire generation and part of a second never actually lived in "Palestine". Granting Citizenship - or at least permanent or resident Visas - would go a long, long way towards alleviating the problem since the Palestinians would be able to participate much more normally in the economies/societies where they actually live.

But that means the Palestinians would also move out of their camps/settlements, integrate, and then the surrounding countries wouldn't be able to point at the issue and say it's Israel's fault.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Black September is what killed the Jordan sympathy for the Palestinians.

The PLO being kicked out of Lebanon and the destruction of the country by Israel in the process of cleaning out that rats' nest.
And currently you can see what Hezbollah is doing to Lebanon by tangling with Israel.

Only because Tunisia was so far away did Arafat and company have safety there.

Even Libya did not want them around at the time.

 

[Lemon law]

Its always been the Arab policy that since the Palestinians lived in the former British mandate that became Israel in 1948, and Israel made them into landless refugees, its therefore Israel's responsibility to make them whole.

Meanwhile, Israel hopes the Palestinians will grow gills and swim away.

Leaving the world stuck with the same problem, Israeli human rights cannot be built
upon the foundation of the total theft of Palestinian human rights.

Somewhere there is that balance of fair to both Palestinians and Israelis, but we will never get there if we assume only Israeli Jews have human rights

Which is why pro-Israeli fan clubbers try to demonize Palestinians at every opportunity.
One can always find some people to demonize in any group, but that is that other pro-Israeli fan clubber fallacy, when one Palestinian is bad, they are ALL BAD, but when one Israeli does something bad, its an JUST AN ISOLATED INCIDENT.

Sorry, I view the Israeli Palestinian issue with American eyes, American eyes that assume that all people have equal rights, the sins of the fathers do not become the sins of their children in hereditary guilt, and that there should be separation of church and State. Its why I cannot side with only Israel, because they have built their State on the foundations of Theft and denial of Palestinian human rights.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Its always been the Arab policy that since the Palestinians lived in the former British mandate that became Israel in 1948, and Israel made them into landless refugees, its therefore Israel's responsibility to make them whole.

Ignoring that is was the Arab's and Palestinian actions that triggered the mess. Israel is not going to take on the responsibility of the Arab actions. Why should they? Rewarding the instigator - doing so; then encourages more - they have nothing to loose for bad behavior.

Meanwhile, Israel hopes the Palestinians will grow gills and swim away.
Better than what the Arab and Palestinians had planned

Leaving the world stuck with the same problem, Israeli human rights cannot be built
upon the foundation of the total theft of Palestinian human rights.

Somewhere there is that balance of fair to both Palestinians and Israelis, but we will never get there if we assume only Israeli Jews have human rights

Which is why pro-Israeli fan clubbers try to demonize Palestinians at every opportunity.
One can always find some people to demonize in any group, but that is that other pro-Israeli fan clubber fallacy, when one Palestinian is bad, they are ALL BAD, but when one Israeli does something bad, its an JUST AN ISOLATED INCIDENT.

Sorry, I view the Israeli Palestinian issue with American eyes, American eyes that assume that all people have equal rights, the sins of the fathers do not become the sins of their children in hereditary guilt, and that there should be separation of church and State. Its why I cannot side with only Israel, because they have built their State on the foundations of Theft and denial of Palestinian human rights.

Yet the theft and denial is what the Palestinians intended.

Israel defended itself and you feel that the Palestinians should be rewarded and not have to accept the consequences of their actions. They still are attacking Israel and their elected leadership publicly states their mission is to destroy Israel, not live in peace with them.

Israel was asked to have a settlement freeze as a precondition for talks; where were the Palestinians after that concession happened? Planning to try and get more concessions out of Israel instead of talking.

The Palestinians have a unique opportunity to demonstrate to the world their sincerity and the "evil deception" of Israel. Yet they are unable/unwilling to do so.

Are they of such upstanding moral character that they can not even attempt to lie to the world about wanting a peaceful solution?

 

[Lemon law]

Yet more lies, note I said demonize, yet EK passed of my quote and the changed it to sermonize.

Then there you go again, " Israel defended itself and you feel that the Palestinians should be rewarded and not have to accept the consequences of their actions. They still are attacking Israel and their elected leadership publicly states their mission is to destroy Israel, not live in peace with them."

Note, it was the Arabs and their standing armies and not the Palestinians who attacked Israel in 1948. And you compound your sin again by saying because some Palestinians still attack the State of Israel, that there is therefore a Palestinian collective guilt? Tell us all about those newly born Palestinian children who are attacking Israel. And then explain to this forum why they should not have the basic human rights Israel denies them. As it is, Israelis kill more Palestinians that Palestinians kill Israelis and have for 62 years running.

Even when called out for using collective guilt, EK, its still so deeply ingrained in your justifications that you don't even notice you are doing it. Nor can you note the fact, that without a total settlement freeze, peace talks with Israel are a farce. I mean seriously EK, what did you think Obama was flapping his gums over in merely asking that Israel freeze settlement activity. Every one but the US population knows that settlement freeze is a vital pre-condition, but for Obama to take on the AICpac is a bridge too far. Abbas as world wide support everywhere else in declining to talk without that settlement freeze. In the past decade Israel has lost almost all its international support and its clearly going to look even worse for Israel in the near term one or two year future.

 

[EagleKeeper]

There was a settlement freeze as per the Palestinian request/demand.

But the Palestinians refused to show up for talks.

Regarding collective punishment - many Palestinians sided with the Arabs in '48, expecting to come back to an all Arab Palestine and taking over what belonged to the Jewish settlers.

The tables turned.

As long as the Palestinians choose to allow/encourage attacks against Israel, collectively, they will reap what they are sowing.

Abbas apparently is not strong enough to obtain peace, maybe the next PAlestinian leader will want to at the expense of their political career.