apoppin
Lifer
There's not much 'intellegent' in OT [period]
:Q
AT has already determined that rreligion will stay in OT - not P&N
and this thread hasn't deterioted into 'flames' even though it has been up for days.
:roll:
:Q
AT has already determined that rreligion will stay in OT - not P&N
and this thread hasn't deterioted into 'flames' even though it has been up for days.
:roll:
it means nothing... the actual pronunciation of the name of god is long forgotten in the jewish religion... we simply have the consonants... yod hey vuv hey..... which with the proper vowel's could spell Yaweh... however it could also spelll Yahvoo or Yavah or yeevuh or a billion other pronunciations... but you're not supposed to say the name of god outloud anyway...
-Max
-Max
Originally posted by: apoppin
How does ANYone take the word of an "official religion" as truth?
The OT bible [hebrew scriptures] is a glorification of the jewish nation, of god's "special" dealihg with their TRIBE . . . .
How ANYone can swallow - withOUT confirmation; without questioning their "history" - compiled by their priests - is way way beyond me.
Their bible - adopted by christians - speaks about the Creator [yahweh/jehovah] blessing the entire planet by means of them - 'natural' jews.
What an agenda.
:roll:
:thumbsdown:
jews are master propangadists . . . they've had thousands of years to justify the genocide of their neighbors as "god-directed".
believe what you WANT to
WTF? :disgust:
:roll:
Okay, DUH, it's because the '607 timeline' is the one lie that the JWs hold onto that is EASIEST to disprove, so of COURSE 'apostates' are going to point a finger at that.
Want to find more 'apostate' sites, try to look up for what years during the 1990s the JW religion was a contributing member of the UN and which members of the governing body signed the papers to join the UN.
OR, here is an idea, DON'T USE THE INTERNET IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE SOURCES!!!
It's called a "public library". Go look up the fall of Jerusalem in a LIBRARY BOOK instead of internet web pages! You do remember how to do that, right? I assume you must, and can only believe you thus are not really honestly looking into this topic.
Or, heck, even check any online dictionary
or even the wikipedia:
You've still not provided any PROOF that Jerusalem fell in 607. 2 Kings 24:1, which you cited as the 'source' of the 620 BCE date, SAYS NO SUCH THING!
Again, you will find NO PROOF for the 607 BCE date, because NO SOURCES CLAIM THAT DATE ANYMORE.
Modern archeology has soundly disproved it.
apoppin
Lifer
Originally posted by: Doboji
Originally posted by: apoppin
How does ANYone take the word of an "official religion" as truth?
The OT bible [hebrew scriptures] is a glorification of the jewish nation, of god's "special" dealihg with their TRIBE . . . .
How ANYone can swallow - withOUT confirmation; without questioning their "history" - compiled by their priests - is way way beyond me.
Their bible - adopted by christians - speaks about the Creator [yahweh/jehovah] blessing the entire planet by means of them - 'natural' jews.
What an agenda.
:roll:
:thumbsdown:
jews are master propangadists . . . they've had thousands of years to justify the genocide of their neighbors as "god-directed".
believe what you WANT to
WTF? :disgust:
disgusted but without an explanation . . .
that's good . . . and fairly typical of OT . . .
:roll:
We got us a winner here your correct. The true pronoucation has never been written down fact is Gods true name when spoken aloud was reputed to evoke suck power they never would use his name . Thats how it supposedly got lost. I personally don't believe any man new his name ever.
When Moses recieved the commandments he asked the Lord God high his name because he said the people would ask Moses the name of this nameless God .
Gods reply was and I believe this to be the Greatest Words ever spoken in the history of the world ( I AM THAT I AM ) The Christ how ever is the( Alpha and the Omega,)
The word Johovah I believe this is from memory was invented in the year 1825 Just a little late in history to be Gods name . Fact is If this is not Gods name and you except it your doomed to eternial damnation
I personnally pray directly to the living word of God and I hope thats Good enough
The johovah witness were predicting the second coming would take place befor the year 2000 now there preaching some other garbage. If you question them on this they go into denial and start to tell lies. God fearing people my ass these people want the end to come because there lives are filled with misery. there right on the edge of being suicidel. They won't celebrate Xmas or any holiday birthdays ect. ect. ect. But they well drive cars that put out emissions that poisins all life. they well work in almost any indusrtry . They have know creditabilty
The organization has repeatedly pointed at the UN as being the wild beast in the book of revelation. Why on earth would it want to support it? That again would be apostate propaganda...
Well, funny you tell me not to do research on the web when all your sourced are based on that too...
Flame away all you want...
Now, please refer to this point regarding 2 kings 24:1...
Second Kings 24:1 shows that Nebuchadnezzar brought pressure upon the Judean king ?and so Jehoiakim became his servant [or vassal] for three years. However, he [Jehoiakim] turned back and rebelled against him [Nebuchadnezzar].? Evidently it is to this third year of Jehoiakim as a vassal king under Babylon that Daniel refers at Daniel 1:1. It could not be Jehoiakim?s third year of his 11-year reign over Judah, for at that time Jehoiakim was a vassal, not to Babylon, but to Egypt?s Pharaoh Necho. It was not until Jehoiakim?s fourth year of rule over Judah that Nebuchadnezzar demolished Egyptian domination over Syria-Palestine by his victory at Carchemish (625 B.C.E. [apparently after Nisan]). (Jer 46:2) Since Jehoiakim?s revolt against Babylon led to his downfall after about 11 years on the throne, the beginning of his three-year vassalage to Babylon must have begun toward the end of his eighth year of rule, or early in 620 B.C.E.
dderidex, I am enjoying this discussion!
Originally posted by: Shaotai
The organization has repeatedly pointed at the UN as being the wild beast in the book of revelation. Why on earth would it want to support it? That again would be apostate propaganda...
Well, funny you tell me not to do research on the web when all your sourced are based on that too...
Flame away all you want...
LOL - I told you to look up books in a library, forget the web.
Try it.
Encyclopedias.
Written history.
Give it a try - you'll be surprised.
Also the UN thing is a woot - you CAN'T find any information on that on the web (to my knowledge). Yes, it's proof of hypocrisy that the WTB&TS joined the UN during the 90s as an NGO.
If you don't believe me, prove me wrong. Go to your library and have them request, say (picks a year at random) the 1994 DPI list of NGOs at the UN. You'll find something interest there, I'd warrant.
Or, you can continue living in the dark and pulling a blanket over your head and repeating "they aren't lying to me, they aren't lying to me, they aren't lying to me" all you want....won't change a thing either way.
If *I* where you, I'd make that trip to the library just to satisfy my own conscience.
If you still have one.
Evidently...based on what?
MUST have....why?
Interesting set of assumptions you make - in any case, the timeline you present is based on some incorrect information. Hold on a sec while I dig up some info to correct it.
EDIT: Okay, I see your mistake.
The problem starts with Jehoiakim's reing. History tells us that in 607, Nineveh was taken and destroyed by the Medes. By 604, 'Babylon' under Nebuchadnezzar had finished his was with the Egyptians (Pharoah Necho - as you say) at Carchemish, with the destruction of their army, and Jehoiakim became a Babylonian subject (Israel in vassalage to Babylon).
During 598, Jehoiakim rebelled against Babylon. This did not go well, and he died pretty promptly. His son, Jehoiachin, held out for 3 months, then surrended and was promptly deported with his key supporters.
Babylon then placed Zedekiah as the puppet leader of Israel. Again, however, the Israelites rebelled (under the assumption of supposed support from Egypt), and in 587, a Chaldean army (Babylon still...basically, anyway) laid seige to Jerusalem.
Surprise, surprise, but Egypt did not honor it's agreement to help defend Israel, and Jerusalem fell in July of 586BCE to the Chaldeans - the rebellion's leaders where put to death, and Zedekiah with a healthy portion of the Hebrew population were carried off as slaves to Babylon (and the temple was destroyed, blahblahblah).
So, your timeline seems to fall down in the dates you start with, basically.
apoppin
Lifer
hmm . . i'd like to see "something" about the WTB&TS supporting the UN as they are so vocal in consistently dennouncing it.
Interestingly, I had not done research on this in YEARS. When *I* found out about it, the only source of information was the NGO book I held in my very hands in the library and saw the WT's name in it. I was shocked.
However, I suppose news that big wouldn't stay quiet for long, and there is a lot on the internet about it NOW.
Apparently, the story 'broke' by the UK newspaper The Guardian. They ran an article in the Oct 8, 2001 issue (yes, that's actually a link to the honest-to-gods 'Guardian' site - a regular run-of-the-mill UK newspaper by any account). Within days of the article running and the MASSIVE press inqueries into the subject, the WT quickly back-pedaled and withdrew. Amusingly, after YEARS of individual members sending letters asking why they where members. I guess it takes the light of the worldwide press to get the WT to change its ways, I dunno.
I'll quote the last half of that article:
EDIT: HOO-BOY, I just found a hot lead on more info, too!
To be a UN member, the organization in question must periodically submit articles to the UN proving that the organization SUPPORTS the UN.
Well, guess what? The WT *did*! They hid many of their 'supporting' articles in their "Watching the World" segments in their 'Awake!' magazines, but did write more lengthy articles from time to time about the UN (in a positive light being the key factor).
And submitted such an article to the UN as proof to maintain their membership status.
And the UN indexed the submission.
On their site!!
(See the second entry down - A ?Long Job Finished? - and what organization submitted it!)
:shocked:
None of these dates matter at all they missed the time line. 1914 the last generation.
God cuts short the time or even the elite would fall into sin (these are 144,000 male virgin JEWS) now the jehovahs believe that they are the Elite. Hay if they can give me the names of 144,000 Jehovahs male or female that were born in 1914 the last generation. that are still alive today I well convert.
When I say the last generation the meaning is Christ second coming well take place before all the people born in 1914 are dead. The Elite are from this generation.
Hay wake up people God can change his mind if he can cut short the time he can extend it. Maybe God said hay I see some promise here.
There is 1 disturbing fact from this time period . the greatest minds the world has ever known were born in this time frame. Maybe just maybe they saved us.
More info - the Global Policy Forum, a website dedicated to keeping people informed of UN actions and influce, has a fairly good writeup on the whole Watchtower/UN thing
Man u better read revelations a few more times I was completly unaware that the the UN adorned it self with Purple and Gold . I am aware of a religios group that does . this religios group also put to death over 200,000,000 people as heritics.
apoppin
Lifer
i believe they were saying a "remnant" of the 144,000 would be alive at armageddon.
ANYway, that is my problem with their timeline. For 40 some years they pointed to 1914 as THE date by which the End would come . . . when it didn't happen, "new light" said the Heavenly kingdom was actually established but "invisible" to human eyes.
THEN - for the next 90 or so years - they said that the generation that EYE-WITNESSED the events of 1914 [at least 12 years of age in 1914] would be THE generation to see armageddon . . .
well that GENERATION is dead [they are a few people still alive born in 1902 or earlier, but that 'generation' is GONE].
So i guess they have 'new light'
BTW, alsolutely nowhere in the Book of Revelation is any evidence that 144,000 is a literal number [ALL the OTHER numbers are symbolic] . . . but they insist . . . anyway, i digress
now this evidence of being a 'member' of the UN is pretty surprising . . . their official reply doesn't 'cut it'.
***
i don't remember ANY lie being condoned in the Bible . . . refresh my memory - i might be wrong . . .
As to the "pivotal date" 539 BCe . . . i'd like to see more than a few Bible verses . . . please
***EDIT to be fair, an "internal document" is probably 'leaked' by an dissatisfied member and might not be true . . . however, their "official" reply seems silly:
year after year they just kept renewing the "library card" . . . can i become a UN NGO by getting a library card?
Honestly, for some reason, that point never stung me as much as logic would dictate it would.
It's odd, but...yeah, Revelation is FULL of numbers. Years and signs and stones and foundations and stars and, etc, et al.
90% of them are all to be taken 'figuratively'....but NOT the number '144,000'? Why? I dunno. I suppose it always seemed specific enough to me that it was meant as a literaly. But why not a number like '666'? I mean, THAT's a pretty specific number too, right? Why doesn't THAT literally stand for six-hundred and sixty-six of something? Why is that 'mark' then a figurative but 144,000 a literal? There is no index in Revelation saying "okay, take these, these, and these verses as literal - the rest is figurative".
I dunno. I see your point, but it never had any emotional or logical impact on me. It should have, but it never did. So I doubt it will on Shaotai.
There is some scriptura evidence to support 'spiritual warfare'. They argue that when Jericho was destroyed, Rahab was spared because she lied to protect the spies. They also point out the example of Abraham lying to say that Sarah was his sister, rather than wife.
To whit, they distinguish between "lying" (intentionally saying something false) and "spiritual warfare" (omitting the truth, even if a lie is implied).
In any case, it's besides the point.
They DO teach that the UN is the 'scarlet-colored wild beast' of Revelation....and yet became members for political expediency. What reaction they had to people finding out, how they 'hid' it - all that is irrelevant. If they were God's only true channel to his people, what where they EVER doing as members of Satan's organization by their thinking? It boggles the mind!
It probably doesn't take a lot to guess, but....this official statement is bunk, too.
First off, you don't need to be an NGO to have a "library card". Indeed, a "library card" is not needed, ANYONE has access to the UN library. ANY organization can apply to check books out - UN 'NGO' status is never needed!
As to *being* an NGO. Well, no, it's not that simple. You have to apply and be approved by a UN oversight committee. In order to do that, you must be a non-profit organization, and prove through publications that you support the UN and promote it to your members. The UN committee obviously isn't going to look INTO this much (they might now, who knows), so it's not like it's extremely difficult.
As the article pointed out, virtually all organized religions in the world are UN NGOs, and pretty much all charities are, as well (all legitimate ones, anyway). It does give them a voice in the UN - the ability to raise issues for consideration, bring things to the public eye, etc. And evidence is that the WT actually DID use their advantage to try and push for religious freedom in some countries. For selfish motivations, of course, but still - the gesture was certainly there.
Honestly, it's a very important role and would have been a very positive step for change for the WT if they didn't back-pedal right out of it when 'caught'.
THe UN it has really no real power in the world . The USA is the power that use to back the UN . The UN is just a sanctuary for small meaningless countries to hide under the umbrella of the USA Russia England China . France use to be one I listed but there such cowards they don't count for nothing . Fact is Cuba is more crediable than France' the USA has little time for the UN any more . There Are A lots of enities in the world they were than they weren't than they are. LOL Russia could be considered . What year was the revolution Well that fits it went from Russia to the U.S.S.R now back to Russia. You guys whats wrong with you instead of preaching doom and gloom go out and make the world a better place not threw religios preachings but threw Good old fashioned Chistian works help the poor and lift up the lowly Give them a home not a bible . Make the world a better place threw good actions and works not empty meaningless words. The living word of God did not preach he was a teacher he tried to show us how to live to gether this is what we are suppose to do. GOOD WORKS not GOOD WORDS.
Do any of you just one of you can tell me who the 12 Kings are WE can really get into some eye opening stuff here. There not much chance that any know for it has been hidden from the sight of man. But if any1 can name just 1 of these MEN well discuss it.
1 hint it has nothing to do with revelations
Do any of you just one of you can tell me who the 12 Kings are WE can really get into some eye opening stuff here. There not much chance that any know for it has been hidden from the sight of man. But if any1 can name just 1 of these MEN well discuss it.
1 hint it has nothing to do with revelations
apoppin
Lifer
Actually Sarah WAS Abraham's [half] sister. :Q
. . . and Rahab wasn't a believer - yet [and she was a whore].
Well, doesn't the Bible say "quit touching the unclean thing"? The JWs always dennounced the UN along with Babylon as UNCLEAN . . . becoming a UN member is "some strategy"
:shocked:
Originally posted by: apoppin
Actually Sarah WAS Abraham's [half] sister. :Q
. . . and Rahab wasn't a believer - yet [and she was a whore].
Well, doesn't the Bible say "quit touching the unclean thing"? The JWs always dennounced the UN along with Babylon as UNCLEAN . . . becoming a UN member is "some strategy"
:shocked:
Hey, I just report 'em like I see 'em. No commentary from me, just the straight facts. (Okay, okay, my "WT as a UN member SHOULD have been a Good Thing if they had embraced it" was definitely commentary from me - but only one point!)
Originally posted by: apoppin
i believe they were saying a "remnant" of the 144,000 would be alive at armageddon.
ANYway, that is my problem with their timeline. For 40 some years they pointed to 1914 as THE date by which the End would come . . . when it didn't happen, "new light" said the Heavenly kingdom was actually established but "invisible" to human eyes.
THEN - for the next 90 or so years - they said that the generation that EYE-WITNESSED the events of 1914 [at least 12 years of age in 1914] would be THE generation to see armageddon . . .
well that GENERATION is dead [they are a few people still alive born in 1902 or earlier, but that 'generation' is GONE].
So i guess they have 'new light'
BTW, alsolutely nowhere in the Book of Revelation is any evidence that 144,000 is a literal number [ALL the OTHER numbers are symbolic] . . . but they insist . . . anyway, i digress
now this evidence of being a 'member' of the UN is pretty surprising . . . their official reply doesn't 'cut it'.***
i don't remember ANY lie being condoned in the Bible . . . refresh my memory - i might be wrong . . .
As to the "pivotal date" 539 BCe . . . i'd like to see more than a few Bible verses . . . please
***EDIT to be fair, an "internal document" is probably 'leaked' by an dissatisfied member and might not be true . . . however, their "official" reply seems silly:year after year they just kept renewing the "library card" . . . can i become a UN NGO by getting a library card?
Every time that the bible literal translation don't hold up religios selites start talking symbolic ( This does not hold up its either exactly right on the money or its a book of fiction ) I except it as being absolutly the whole trueth and nothing but the truth period.
Bible clearly states no one not even the Christ knows that Time. It also states that people who point look this is it know there it is well not be present in heaven . A true Christian would not hang out in the book of Revelations. They would spend there time in the 4 gosples trying to figure out how we should treat each other as human beings. Is this not so . Hell man I want man to reach out and touch the stars not destroyed because we couldn't figure out how to get along.
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