Jeffrey Epstein Commits Suicide at Manhattan Jail

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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
35,956
27,638
136
This is the usual mistake people at large make.
People review the evidence and then make up their mind as to
either

100% this was a suicide
or
100% this was homicide

While I will argue a better approach will to give it odds, even so in descriptive language : I find it highly unlikely (say 10%) that it was homicide ... And keep in mind that whenever you assign 100% to something you are probably doing it wrong.
Anyway, personally I am not closing the door on nefarious circumstances here.
Maybe an additional question
Did JE commit suicide without outside help?
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,047
12,715
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Maybe an additional question
Did JE commit suicide without outside help?

That is the sort of thing I am getting at.. At least it has to be ruled out/investigated, and I am sure those investigations are going on right now ... So for anyone to call it right now is a bit premature IMO.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,047
12,715
136
I do think some of the posters work hard to make up dots, even harder to then connect them, and then say Aha! Look! This is what must have happened.

Sure. For the record, I dont identify as one of those posters. I do feel, though, that some posters here, to get ahead of the conspiracy nut jobs, takes a little leap of faith in proclaiming "nothing to see here, pass the street folks". And dont get me wrong, If I had to put money on it, every thing else being equal, I'd put em on suicide. Sure. Yet, with any kind of game in existence, information is King.

It's like fucking birtherism.
- Are you ok man?
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 8, 2000
23,585
4,803
146
Read this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/17/nyregion/epstein-suicide-death.html?searchResultPosition=4

Epstein was using his wealth to get out of sitting in his cell.
He would pay multiple lawyers to sit in a room for as many as 12 hours a day.
"He paid numerous lawyers to visit the jail for as many as 12 hours a day, giving him the right to see them in a private meeting room. Mr. Epstein was there for so long that he often appeared bored, sitting in silence with his lawyers, according to people who saw the meetings. While they were there, he and his entourage regularly emptied the two vending machines of drinks and snacks. "

He put money in other inmates commissar accounts to prevent being preyed upon.

"But in his final days, Mr. Epstein’s efforts to lessen the misery of incarceration seemed to be faltering.
He was seldom bathing, his hair and beard were unkempt and he was sleeping on the floor of his cell instead of on his bunk bed, according to people at the jail."

"On Aug. 9, lawyers crowded into the plastic chairs in the meeting room with Mr. Epstein as the world was riveted by news that a court had released a cache of previously sealed documents, providing disturbing details about the sex trafficking accusations against him. "
A few hours later, he was dead.

"It is impossible to know why a person takes his own life. But an examination of Mr. Epstein’s last days by The New York Times, gathered from dozens of interviews with law enforcement officials, Bureau of Prisons employees, lawyers and others, suggests that Mr. Epstein’s death came after he started to realize the limits of his ability to deploy his wealth and privilege in the legal system. "

It just seemed that he came to the realization that his vast fortune was not going to get him out this time.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,402
8,038
136
What is it that you "know" that the rest of us don't?

What I "know" is that the ME who did the autopsy said he committed suicide and the ME "knows" a lot more than I do and a lot more than you do about it.
You can believe the ME if you want to. I don't know enough to say I believe the ME. You can, fine. You see, "belief" can mean different things. You say you believe something. What does that mean? You write it off as believed. How deep is your belief? How would I know? I certainly do not believe that JE killed himself. I know that he's officially having said to have done that. I wasn't there, you weren't there. He should have been on suicide watch. He wasn't.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,402
8,038
136
I believe the evidence, and the preponderance of evidence points to suicide. I need actual evidence of foul play to believe it, and so far there is none.

Tell a scientist or lawyer that you don't care about actual evidence, just hunches, and see how they react. Something tells me they'll disagree with your "no shame" position.
Complete nonsense.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,206
6,799
136
Complete nonsense.

Says the person whose beliefs about Epstein's death are based on nonsense.

You have no tangible evidence. Your theory comes down to gut feelings and suspicions. You can't try to claim the rational high ground when the very foundation of your belief is irrational.

Again, this isn't to completely rule out alternate explanations, but until there is actual evidence that supports those explanations, the suicide explanation is by far the most plausible one. Think of it like the theory of evolution; even if there are still a few holes in the model, it's the only theory that survives scrutiny in any way.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
35,956
27,638
136
Says the person whose beliefs about Epstein's death are based on nonsense.

You have no tangible evidence. Your theory comes down to gut feelings and suspicions. You can't try to claim the rational high ground when the very foundation of your belief is irrational.

Again, this isn't to completely rule out alternate explanations, but until there is actual evidence that supports those explanations, the suicide explanation is by far the most plausible one. Think of it like the theory of evolution; even if there are still a few holes in the model, it's the only theory that survives scrutiny in any way.
Who allowed JE to come off suicide watch? Who removed cellmate after coming off suicide watch? You are pretending those events happened in a vaccuum.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Who allowed JE to come off suicide watch? Who removed cellmate after coming off suicide watch? You are pretending those events happened in a vaccuum.

Yeh, they was jus' sure he was gonna kill himself so they made it easy for him. Or something. They couldn't wait for this shitstorm to happen. You betcha.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,206
6,799
136
Who allowed JE to come off suicide watch? Who removed cellmate after coming off suicide watch? You are pretending those events happened in a vaccuum.

The problem is that we don't know if those were deliberate or just colossal screw-ups. You know the (paraphrased) saying "never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetence?" Yeah. It's tempting to say it was malicious, but bad decisions tend to happen more often than we'd care to admit.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,047
12,715
136
Aight, with the new information about settling his affairs and new will just two days before speaks to a man who was planning this some time ahead.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,970
7,888
136
It seems to me that conspiracy theories serve to distract attention from the important issues. Such as the poor state of the prison service and its general lack of care for the wellbeing of inmates. Incompetence is a serious issue in itself, never mind conspiracies - incompetence probably kills more people.

One could almost suspect there's a conspiracy to spread conspiracy theories in order to distract from the real issues.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,402
8,038
136
Says the person whose beliefs about Epstein's death are based on nonsense.

You have no tangible evidence. Your theory comes down to gut feelings and suspicions. You can't try to claim the rational high ground when the very foundation of your belief is irrational.

Again, this isn't to completely rule out alternate explanations, but until there is actual evidence that supports those explanations, the suicide explanation is by far the most plausible one. Think of it like the theory of evolution; even if there are still a few holes in the model, it's the only theory that survives scrutiny in any way.
Dude, wake up! I didn't say JE didn't commit suicide. I just said I don't "believe" he did. I likewise don't believe he didn't. Get your brain working.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,206
6,799
136
Dude, wake up! I didn't say JE didn't commit suicide. I just said I don't "believe" he did. I likewise don't believe he didn't. Get your brain working.

So what do you believe? Do you trust an outside medical examiner and accounts of what happened? You know, evidence? You can't just throw your hands up in the air and pretend the facts don't lean one way or the other. All the clues so far point to suicide; you can accept that reality while keeping an open mind, or you can live in a fantasy land.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,511
29,091
146
JFK killed Epstein. I'd say he blew his own cover but Oswald did that for him.

This actually explains why Ted Cruze's dad killed JFK: revenge. Being a friend of Epstein and his rape parties, and basically knowing that's how his little son Teddy was conceived, Ted Sr decided that POTUS needed a bullet to his head.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,047
12,715
136
So what do you believe? Do you trust an outside medical examiner and accounts of what happened? You know, evidence? You can't just throw your hands up in the air and pretend the facts don't lean one way or the other. All the clues so far point to suicide; you can accept that reality while keeping an open mind, or you can live in a fantasy land.
I would phrase it like this : In my opinion its highly likely that Epstein killed himself. Its getting into the nitty gritty of the semantics of it all, but bottom line is something like this, to believe is akin to take a leap of faith, a leap of faith is not a probability factor I assign to my reality.
I find it highly likely that Epstein killed himself. I dont know what motivated him to do so, how the circumstances ended up so it was a possibility for him to do so.
I also find it probable that he killed himself cause he was out of "get out of jail free cards" and I find it probable that his genius mind was able to find a way out even with preventive measures.
I also know that there is a frickton of motive out there to keep the guy silent.
I would like to advance "probable" to "highly likely" though, so I'd like to know more.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,090
136
Who allowed JE to come off suicide watch? Who removed cellmate after coming off suicide watch? You are pretending those events happened in a vaccuum.

The prison shrinks did, after having him on watch and examining him daily for a week. It's more than possible to come across as non-suicidal when one is actually suicidal.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The prison shrinks did, after having him on watch and examining him daily for a week. It's more than possible to come across as non-suicidal when one is actually suicidal.

There's often a steep drop off into despair. It's hard for the person or the shrinks to figure out how close they are to the edge.

It's also important to understand that his jailers really didn't want this to happen. While Epstein was a big deal on the outside, he's just another perv to them. They see plenty, I'm sure. From a professional perspective, this is very bad ju-ju. Very bad. They don't want the big bosses or the FBI crawling up their asses, ever. All they want is a steady uneventful stream of prisoners going to court & often on to prison. Keep it as smooth as possible. It just doesn't always work out that way. Fuckups happen, like everywhere else.