Japanese vs. Korean..........

[redgtxdi]

So, let's say that everybody can agree that the Japanese are no slouches in quality. Engines, trannies, electronics, hardware, etc. They're good, period.

Now, Korea is officially making a statement. (Seen the new 2009 Sonata commercial?? STARTING AT $19K!!!)

So if we assume these "World Motor" programs are good enough, (I think they are) and the trannies are good too (I do think they are as well). Then I have to look at the other parts of the car.

But things like interior, plastic, glass, don't really concern me. Here's where I get concerned........

CV's, wheel bearings, brake calipers, steering systems, tie rods & ends, trailing arms, struts/springs/mounts, power window units, door hinges, and whatever else I might be missing.

Are the Korean cars using Korean versions of these parts?? Are the Japanese still using Japanese versions?? Are they are all chinese/taiwanese/mexican these days??

Just thinking about the stuff that'll matter after 5 years or so.

 

[desy]

After 3 yrs it has more to do with the owners than the cars themselves.
My cars hold up well cause they get maintained and sit a in a garage most of the time. BIG difference

 

[herm0016]

i would say that the Japanese cars are still better than the Korean in general. imho kia is about as low as you can go in todays market.

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: herm0016
i would say that the Japanese cars are still better than the Korean in general. imho kia is about as low as you can go in todays market.

Low as in bad quality? I thought Dodge had them beat in that department...

 

[herm0016]

i would say they are similar to the mid to late 90s dodge, but at least i can gets parts for a dodge.

 

[GoatMonkey]

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: herm0016
i would say that the Japanese cars are still better than the Korean in general. imho kia is about as low as you can go in todays market.

Low as in bad quality? I thought Dodge had them beat in that department...

This list puts Kia below Dodge:

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/i/m...60810/AP_JD_POWERS.gif


Edit: Here's the rest of the article if you're interested:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14273552/

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: herm0016
i would say that the Japanese cars are still better than the Korean in general. imho kia is about as low as you can go in todays market.

Low as in bad quality? I thought Dodge had them beat in that department...

This list puts Kia below Dodge:

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/i/m...60810/AP_JD_POWERS.gif


Edit: Here's the rest of the article if you're interested:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14273552/

JD Power is worthless for accurate information though...

 

[GoatMonkey]

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: herm0016
i would say that the Japanese cars are still better than the Korean in general. imho kia is about as low as you can go in todays market.

Low as in bad quality? I thought Dodge had them beat in that department...

This list puts Kia below Dodge:

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/i/m...60810/AP_JD_POWERS.gif


Edit: Here's the rest of the article if you're interested:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14273552/

JD Power is worthless for accurate information though...

OK, so post an unquestionably accurate reference.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: herm0016
i would say that the Japanese cars are still better than the Korean in general. imho kia is about as low as you can go in todays market.

Low as in bad quality? I thought Dodge had them beat in that department...

This list puts Kia below Dodge:

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/i/m...60810/AP_JD_POWERS.gif


Edit: Here's the rest of the article if you're interested:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14273552/

JD Power is worthless for accurate information though...

Really based on what?

 

[Funyuns101]

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: herm0016
i would say that the Japanese cars are still better than the Korean in general. imho kia is about as low as you can go in todays market.

Low as in bad quality? I thought Dodge had them beat in that department...

This list puts Kia below Dodge:

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/i/m...60810/AP_JD_POWERS.gif


Edit: Here's the rest of the article if you're interested:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14273552/

I'd like to see something a tad more updated this is from 2006... not saying that this isn't legit; but from what I understand, a lot of Hyundai's lineup is definitely up & coming especially their Sonata, Santa Fe, Elantra and upcoming Genesis models.

Although Consumer Reports isn't exactly the best source for this type of info:
http://www.consumerreports.org...704_top-picks-2007.htm
http://www.consumerreports.org...iew/0407_best_cars.htm

I'm also very curious about this as the new Elantra Touring is coming out later this year. But I have no experience w/Hyundai's.

 

[KDKPSJ]

Well, first of all, if you think Korean tranny is good, think again. Most of Kia/Hyundai's cars in US use Aisin (= Toyota) tranny. In Korean market, they use their own tranny for their cars, and failure rate is nowhere closer to US cars. They barely lasts 7 years unless you gave a really serious and good care. (ie, only driving under 3000RPM, frequent mission oil change, etc) Korean calls it yoo-ri mission, by yoo-ri means glass. (Easy to be broken anytime)

Genesis' tranny is ZF, because they have no idea how to make RWD tranny with capable of 250+ HP.

Engine, on the other hand, is really getting better every year. It's still more to go, especially in the area of variable timing technology and durability. But at least it's not a light year difference from German/Japanese engine.

Small things you said, they are really the things Hyundai should work on, and they do. Suspension, break, and handling are nowhere near to those of Japan. (Again, Genesis uses German-tuned/made suspension. I believe it's Porsche)

Overall, they are getting closer to Japanese, but not on par at all. Engine is very very close, but considering other serious parts like tranny and suspension are still outsourced, I think they are still behind Japan, or even behind domestic. (At least Big 3 knows how to make their own tranny and last more than 7 years)

 

[mshan]

Can you comment on current Hyundai Santa Fe and Hyundai Sonata?

 

[Funyuns101]

Originally posted by: mshan
Can you comment on current Hyundai Santa Fe and Hyundai Sonata?

here's some videos that anyone can see...
Interestingly, the Elantra and Santa Fe were picked over comparable Toyota and Honda vehicles.

 

[Chunkee]

i have two kias...i drove them all...we have two of the newer minivans the sedonas...read all the great reviews, both car mags and OWNERS...I get really tired of the BS hype and faonbois from the mags that always point to HONDA...the name is not enough any more.

I for one have driven the new accord, camry and will drive the altima and the SONATA... i am not one to rely on name alone as i know many people who have the japanese cars have had problems, yes..including honda, and toyota... TCO is something I consider. I see nothing wrong with them....yes, some of the lower end kias for that purpose...not everyone can afford the higher end models...but make no mistake..they are not junk...and AT usually they are rated very high in safety...something i think should not be optional...

 

[JulesMaximus]

There is no way in hell I'd ever buy a Kia...there's no way in hell I'd ever buy a Dodge either though.

I'm keeping my paid for 2003 Nissan Maxima with 69k miles on it for at least 3 more years until my wife's Lexus is paid off. At the rate I'm going I might have 90k miles on the Maxima by then.

 

[Zee]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: herm0016
i would say that the Japanese cars are still better than the Korean in general. imho kia is about as low as you can go in todays market.

Low as in bad quality? I thought Dodge had them beat in that department...

This list puts Kia below Dodge:

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/i/m...60810/AP_JD_POWERS.gif


Edit: Here's the rest of the article if you're interested:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14273552/

JD Power is worthless for accurate information though...

Really based on what?

based on the fact that you are paying for rating. All that shit shows is that Dodge paid more money than Kia to JD powers.

JD Powers is purely an advertising firm. They exist based on ignorant public believing their advertisement.

 

[Chunkee]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
There is no way in hell I'd ever buy a Kia...there's no way in hell I'd ever buy a Dodge either though.

I'm keeping my paid for 2003 Nissan Maxima with 69k miles on it for at least 3 more years until my wife's Lexus is paid off. At the rate I'm going I might have 90k miles on the Maxima by then.

how very nice for you

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

I had an 07 Kia Spectra with power everything, and I picked it over a 07 i4 Accord. for the $$$ I got a lot more car in the KIA, and to me, it felt like the Kia had more get up and go. I had never driven either brand before, but my seat of the pants meter told me the Accord felt cheap. And to tell you of the cheapness of the Accord, it only came with 2 speakers. WTF, I haven't seen a car with 2 speakers since the 80's.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
I had an 07 Kia Spectra with power everything, and I picked it over a 07 i4 Accord. for the $$$ I got a lot more car in the KIA, and to me, it felt like the Kia had more get up and go. I had never driven either brand before, but my seat of the pants meter told me the Accord felt cheap. And to tell you of the cheapness of the Accord, it only came with 2 speakers. WTF, I haven't seen a car with 2 speakers since the 80's.

My 2001 Honda Accord has 6 speakers with a 6 disc CD-changer. Maybe that was the lowest model Accord you had? I test drove the 2007 Honda Accord and was very impressed.

 

[redgtxdi]

Originally posted by: raildogg

My 2001 Honda Accord has 6 speakers with a 6 disc CD-changer. Maybe that was the lowest model Accord you had? I test drove the 2007 Honda Accord and was very impressed.

Did you mean the new '08 or the actual recently-retired '07??

 

[lurk3r]

Originally posted by: mshan
Can you comment on current Hyundai Santa Fe and Hyundai Sonata?

A guy here at work got a Santa Fe here with our corporate discount, since we installed the plant in the US. He absolutely adored the car for the first 6 months or so, until the throttle response became what can only be described as random and unpredictable. Several trips to the dealer resulted in no fix, the dealer telling him that random throttle performance is 'as expected'.

He finally gave up and traded the 9 month old POS in, took about a 6k loss on a car he paid $18k for and got a Mazda.

Expect all warranty claims to be weaseled out of.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: lurk3r

Originally posted by: mshan
Can you comment on current Hyundai Santa Fe and Hyundai Sonata?

A guy here at work got a Santa Fe here with our corporate discount, since we installed the plant in the US. He absolutely adored the car for the first 6 months or so, until the throttle response became what can only be described as random and unpredictable. Several trips to the dealer resulted in no fix, the dealer telling him that random throttle performance is 'as expected'.

He finally gave up and traded the 9 month old POS in, took about a 6k loss on a car he paid $18k for and got a Mazda.

Expect all warranty claims to be weaseled out of.

has he tried corporate? This is really alarming considering their warranty is the big selling point.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: everydae
Well, first of all, if you think Korean tranny is good, think again. Most of Kia/Hyundai's cars in US use Aisin (= Toyota) tranny. In Korean market, they use their own tranny for their cars, and failure rate is nowhere closer to US cars. They barely lasts 7 years unless you gave a really serious and good care. (ie, only driving under 3000RPM, frequent mission oil change, etc) Korean calls it yoo-ri mission, by yoo-ri means glass. (Easy to be broken anytime)

Genesis' tranny is ZF, because they have no idea how to make RWD tranny with capable of 250+ HP.

Engine, on the other hand, is really getting better every year. It's still more to go, especially in the area of variable timing technology and durability. But at least it's not a light year difference from German/Japanese engine.

Small things you said, they are really the things Hyundai should work on, and they do. Suspension, break, and handling are nowhere near to those of Japan. (Again, Genesis uses German-tuned/made suspension. I believe it's Porsche)

Overall, they are getting closer to Japanese, but not on par at all. Engine is very very close, but considering other serious parts like tranny and suspension are still outsourced, I think they are still behind Japan, or even behind domestic. (At least Big 3 knows how to make their own tranny and last more than 7 years)

I'm not about to say Korean cars are the best ever, but I take issue with a couple of your 'reasons' why they are not up to par.

Plenty of companies use ZF transmissions. It's not unusual and it makes a LOT of sense for a company to buy in parts like this from specialist companies, especially if it is for a lower volume unit that has to handle higher power than 90% of the units you fit or make in house. Hell, my BMW has a Getrag transmission. I guess BMW suck because they can't make their own manual trans?

Outsourced suspension? You are aware that MANY parts of a car are produced by companies external to the brand name on the hood? The entire dash assembly will probably have been made by an outsourced company, the seats, the headlining, you name it. There is no reason for a car manufacturer to produce or become an expert in EVERY field of production and materials to produce a car. I know of NO volume manufacturer that produces every component under their own roof for one single model. Proton cars have Lotus tuned suspension. That can't possibly make it any worse, it can only be better than an in house solution, otherwise they wouldn't bother (yes I'm aware that it is also a marketing exercise and the relationship with Lotus/proton).

 

[lurk3r]

Hyundai corporate was not even remotely concerned, and its not his problem anymore, 3 months of taking a car that you can't predict if the tires are going to spin, or barely move when you floor it was enough. And this dude is the biggest whiner I know.

 

[KDKPSJ]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: everydae
Well, first of all, if you think Korean tranny is good, think again. Most of Kia/Hyundai's cars in US use Aisin (= Toyota) tranny. In Korean market, they use their own tranny for their cars, and failure rate is nowhere closer to US cars. They barely lasts 7 years unless you gave a really serious and good care. (ie, only driving under 3000RPM, frequent mission oil change, etc) Korean calls it yoo-ri mission, by yoo-ri means glass. (Easy to be broken anytime)

Genesis' tranny is ZF, because they have no idea how to make RWD tranny with capable of 250+ HP.

Engine, on the other hand, is really getting better every year. It's still more to go, especially in the area of variable timing technology and durability. But at least it's not a light year difference from German/Japanese engine.

Small things you said, they are really the things Hyundai should work on, and they do. Suspension, break, and handling are nowhere near to those of Japan. (Again, Genesis uses German-tuned/made suspension. I believe it's Porsche)

Overall, they are getting closer to Japanese, but not on par at all. Engine is very very close, but considering other serious parts like tranny and suspension are still outsourced, I think they are still behind Japan, or even behind domestic. (At least Big 3 knows how to make their own tranny and last more than 7 years)

I'm not about to say Korean cars are the best ever, but I take issue with a couple of your 'reasons' why they are not up to par.

Plenty of companies use ZF transmissions. It's not unusual and it makes a LOT of sense for a company to buy in parts like this from specialist companies, especially if it is for a lower volume unit that has to handle higher power than 90% of the units you fit or make in house. Hell, my BMW has a Getrag transmission. I guess BMW suck because they can't make their own manual trans?

Outsourced suspension? You are aware that MANY parts of a car are produced by companies external to the brand name on the hood? The entire dash assembly will probably have been made by an outsourced company, the seats, the headlining, you name it. There is no reason for a car manufacturer to produce or become an expert in EVERY field of production and materials to produce a car. I know of NO volume manufacturer that produces every component under their own roof for one single model. Proton cars have Lotus tuned suspension. That can't possibly make it any worse, it can only be better than an in house solution, otherwise they wouldn't bother (yes I'm aware that it is also a marketing exercise and the relationship with Lotus/proton).

The thing is Lotus/BMW are not day-to-day/economy car manufacturer. I agree that it's pretty reasonable not to produce in-house for such manufacturer since it's hard to break-even considering the number of cars they sell.

Hyundai, on the other hand, is day-to-day car manufacturer. Big names in this segment (ie. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, GM, Chrysler) pretty much produced their own transmission for a while. If they outsource, it's mostly because of the cost. At least it's not because of durability or reliability like Hyundai.

I bet same goes to the other parts as well. There's a huge difference between "Can't make" and "Don't make."