Japan aims to abandon nuclear power by 2030s

[spacejamz]

well that's the opposite of what kind of thinking it's going to take to figure it out..

i guess that leaves pixie dust and unicorn farts on the table in your world then...

 

[SparkyJJO]

well that's the opposite of what kind of thinking it's going to take to figure it out..

So the kind of thinking necessary is to reduce population and business? 😕

 

[DCal430]

Please provide another realistic cost effective solution that Japan can use that will satisfy the energy needs for all of the citizens and companies there...

How is nuclear power cost effective, when your spending hundreds of billions on clean up cost.

 

[lotus503]

Perhaps wave energy?

 

[lotus503]

Interesting read on wave energy
http://environmentaleducationuk.wor...pan-wave-power-excites-as-next-energy-source/

 

[spacejamz]

Perhaps wave energy?

Perhaps wave motion? 🙂

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty-1zWsXFNs

 

[monovillage]

A great article by Dr. Curry with links to quite a few other articles.

http://judithcurry.com/2012/03/21/nuclear-power-discussion-thread/

Economist

The Economist has an post entitled The Dream That Failed, with subtitle “A year after Fukushima, the future for nuclear power is not bright – for reasons of cost as much as safety.” This is from a longer report with the same title

WSJ

WSJ has two relevant articles:

Power Mag

Power has an article on actions being undertaken by the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission to implement 7 safety regulations based upon lessons learned from Fukushima:

Michael Lemonick

Michael Lemonick has an article at Climate Central entitled No Nukes? Only if You Believe in Magic. Some excerpts:

 

[Agent11]

Maybe they should upgrade all their plants to newer designs, just because something built in the 60's failed doesn't mean the entire concept is flawed.

 

[Genx87]

according to Michu Kaku a rather famous scientist who speculates about the future
in about 10 years Solar power and other forms of renewable power may very well become as economically feasible as fossil fuels within ten years.

He also talks about Hubbert's Peak


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvsFWUo2iIw

He could be wrong though... However, maybe that is why they set the goal out by about 27 years to see if existing power technologies are improved or if new ones are developed.

This guy is to me the modern equivalent of Carl Sagan. Only Carl Sagan became a bit more famous because Americans back in those hallowed times weren't so distracted by things like Honey Boo Boo

hehe we have been hearing Solar power is 10 years away from being economically feasible for the past 40 years.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

hehe we have been hearing Solar power is 10 years away from being economically feasible for the past 40 years.

Eventually they'll get that A-Bomb built too.

We've got Iran thumbing it's nose at the rest of the world, the ME in general a shit hole while we inject their heroin into our economy which happens to be hamstrung in part by costs and we treat the root cause as if it's something that will just fix itself.

The unlimited foolishness of collective humanity is astounding.

 

[Steeplerot]

Maybe they should upgrade all their plants to newer designs, just because something built in the 60's failed doesn't mean the entire concept is flawed.

It is not that it is flawed, it is a rather mature industry as far as engineering.

The cost of failure and the engineering cost of preventing an accident/failure is far beyond the benefits.

Lets not even get into the moral issues of leaving this crap laying around for 10s of thousands of years.

Who is going to be responsible for keeping contamination isolated in 50 years?

How about a 1000? Why is it generations to comes problem for us to get power for a few years. (that was never even cheap?)

It's madness the more you read up on it. I can understand why scientists wanted to bring this "so cheap it will be unmetered" tech to the world after releasing the genie of Nuclear weapons.

But sometimes life is not a fairytale regardless of good intentions. That is humanities ego. Not engineering reality.

I really would rather not argue with a bunch of nukies, this is my "pet" subject since Fuku turned me anti, I could go on for hours about the utter short sighted stupidity and how the nuke industry itself is as bad (worse imo) then wall st banksters. But people here dont want to hear it. Its not even a partisan thing. It's a huge problem for both sides politicians that are in bed with these cancer merchants.

I will let the Northern Japanese people speak for themselves about the realities of newly developing thyroid conditions in their children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmS5CKHAOMo

 

[K1052]

Eventually they'll get that A-Bomb built too.

We've got Iran thumbing it's nose at the rest of the world, the ME in general a shit hole while we inject their heroin into our economy which happens to be hamstrung in part by costs and we treat the root cause as if it's something that will just fix itself.

The unlimited foolishness of collective humanity is astounding.

Reducing our petroleum usage has little to do with electricity generation. Basically all of our major power generation fuels (coal, NG, nuke) are domestic.

 

[K1052]

I really would rather not argue with a bunch of nukies, this is my "pet" subject since Fuku turned me anti, I could go on for hours about the utter short sighted stupidity and how the nuke industry itself is as bad (worse imo) then wall st banksters. But people here dont want to hear it. Its not even a partisan thing. It's a huge problem for both sides politicians that are in bed with these cancer merchants.

You were anti-nuclear long before Fukushima.

 

[bfdd]

You were anti-nuclear long before Fukushima.

I was just thinking the same thing lol. Nuclear energy can be done right just wait and see. China will light the way lol.

 

[Steeplerot]

You were anti-nuclear long before Fukushima.

Untrue, I was on the fence for ages leaning toward newer plants. Blinded by my love of the engineering marvel of the industry.

This is why I was so concerned when it happened. I am also child of the 1980s and remember what a toll Chernobyl (and still is) taking on the children of Ukraine and Belarus.

 

[K1052]

Untrue, I was on the fence for ages leaning toward newer plants. Blinded by my love of the engineering marvel of the industry.

I have personally had many arguments with you over the years about this here.

 

[Steeplerot]

I have personally had many arguments with you over the years about this here.

All post Fuku. It's been well over a year now.

Pre-fuku my beef was lack of responsible regulation of the industry and cost/corner cutting. (ignoring engineers and good science for $)

Seeing how the Japenese government and TEPCO is handling this crisis over a year in it seems I was far too conservative about the scope of the corruption and humanities ability to clean up one (ahem, 3 reactors and 4 SFP in the case of Japan) of these messes.

The line back then from nukies in here was "You are a conspiracy theorist to say a PCV could ever catastrophically leak into the environment! The plants are totally safe with x backup system etc etc! China Syndrome? You libtard!"

Now we have 3 china syndrome in the Japanese water table and the pacific ocean.

And the Industry? "Humanity now needs to INVENT a way to clean up the mess." (they were/are gambling with cancers for $$ the whole time)

The Nuke industry never even had a backup/cleanup plan. Except to smile and be happy so radiation does not contaminate you and your family. (this is what the Japanese refugees are told)

We were all wrong.

 

[K1052]

All post Fuku. It's been well over a year now.

Pre-fuku my beef was lack of responsible regulation of the industry and cost/corner cutting. (ignoring engineers and good science for $)

Seeing how the Japenese government and TEPCO is handling this crisis over a year in it seems I was far too conservative about the scope of the corruption and humanities ability to clean up one (ahem, 3 reactors and 4 SFP in the case of Japan) of these messes.

No, you were strongly against nuclear well before Fukushima. I remember.

The Fukushima accident highlights something I've been saying for years: older plants should be retired and new safer ones built to replace them. The Fukushima accident would have been impossible in a Gen III plant. I've even gone as far to suggest the NRC deny license extensions to old plants if the utilities that own them aren't actively working on building newer/safer models.

 

[uclaLabrat]

30 years is a long damn time. I'll speculate in 30 years solar, geothermal, and wind power will be enough to power virtually everything, with fossil fuels and catalytic synthesis of hydrocarbons from CO2 will fill in the gaps and provide the portability required for modern transportation.

 

[Steeplerot]

No, you were strongly against nuclear well before Fukushima. I remember.

The Fukushima accident highlights something I've been saying for years: older plants should be retired and new safer ones built to replace them. The Fukushima accident would have been impossible in a Gen III plant. I've even gone as far to suggest the NRC deny license extensions to old plants if the utilities that own them aren't actively working on building newer/safer models.

The question is why? Nuke power provides less then 30% of the USAs power and is not profitable, doubly so when you get into these newer overengineered plants.

The whole thing is a argument wrapped up in ego because its "nuke powa!" which I admit is pretty bad ass. But this is not a argument based in logic. If anything it is a interesting study in humanities obsession with flashy distractions and our own self destructive short-sighted nature.

 

[Sonikku]

This is a no win scenario for Japan. On the one hand, they have few alternatives to nuclear power. On the other, they have to deal with Godzilla. I deeply sympathize with their not wanting to have their buildings and cities constantly reduced to rubble as seen in television documentaries, but what else can they do for energy?

 

[QuantumPion]

How is nuclear power cost effective, when your spending hundreds of billions on clean up cost.

It's hundreds of billions of yen, not dollars. In dollars it's in the 10-20 billion range. And nuclear power is still cost effective despite clean up costs because the fuel is practically free compared to coal, oil, or natural gas. It's like having 100 hoover dams wherever you want them but without the massive environmental impact.

 

[Steeplerot]

It's hundreds of billions of yen, not dollars. In dollars it's in the 10-20 billion range. And nuclear power is still cost effective despite clean up costs because the fuel is practically free compared to coal, oil, or natural gas. It's like having 100 hoover dams wherever you want them but without the massive environmental impact.

😵 wow. Do you even follow current events?

Your figures are how much the government has given so far to clean up. And the job is literally understaffed, and half assed.

And there is no dollar amount for making part of the planet uninhabitable.

No massive environmental impact? Tell that to refugee families of the growing list of exclusion zones across the planet thanks to this "harmless and clean" industry.

What a tool.

There are a few TEPCO whistle-blowers out there now. What is coming out of the cleanup is a joke. The workers know trying to clean that mess up is a farce. Which is why TEPCO sends a few guys in to clean tsunami debris and look busy. They cant even get near the reactors themselves.

Much less to go into the basements and see how bad the actual situation is.

The reality is no one even knows how far the fuel travelled into the basement (and beyond) subsequently into the pacific ocean and northern japans drinking water. Just that getting near the problem is certain death for humans and even the best technology humanity has created as far as robots.

And its not going to get any better, those compromised stainless steel vessels are covered in corrosion from seawater and deteriorating daily.

(seawater and stainless steel are NOT friends.)

One way we can tell, is the amount of I 131/Stronium90/Cesium 134/137 being found in wastewater effluent. People of northern Japan are literally shitting nuke waste now. The inevitable bioaccumulation has long since begun.

Good luck putting a price tag on that.

 

[uclaLabrat]

It's hundreds of billions of yen, not dollars. In dollars it's in the 10-20 billion range. And nuclear power is still cost effective despite clean up costs because the fuel is practically free compared to coal, oil, or natural gas. It's like having 100 hoover dams wherever you want them but without the massive environmental impact.

Quoted for hilarity.

The hoover damn probably has negligible impact of a single nuclear accident, and you always have the option of tearing a damn down. You can't just "unspill" radioactive waste.

 

[bfdd]

Quoted for hilarity.

The hoover damn probably has negligible impact of a single nuclear accident, and you always have the option of tearing a damn down. You can't just "unspill" radioactive waste.

You say that, but that's because we don't know what the ecological impact of the hoover dam and since it wasn't such a negative like the Nampho Dam in destroying farm land no one really notices.