Jackson is at it again

[classy]

Corn you found no one else racist here but me? You found no else to be a hypocrit also? I am the only black bringing counter points and according to you now, the only racist and hypocrit. Gee thanks. Now thats equality at its highest. I just love being treated as an equal.

 

[shifrbv]

Michael - I think your posts are about the only intelligent ones that I have read in this entire thread.

I too have seen in at least 2 Fortune 100 companies that I worked for discrimination not only against black people, but also women and asians.

In fact, at one such meeting where management was looking to hire a new person to handle IT software development, there was a stack of recent college graduate resumes with people who had been chosen because of outstanding GPA and most of them were female and asian. One of the managers came right out and said "Can't we find some nice, normal American college guy for this position?" Another manager quickly made a comment about saying something like this because I was in the room as an assistant (this other manager clearly knew that was a taboo thing to say). In the end, an American guy, recent grad, was hired even though his academic record was only a 3.0 while most of the female asians had nearly 4.0.

I have also seen similar at another Fortune 100 company where the executive director asked if the company could get a college guy to fill a position because he didn't think a female was suitable (this was a research assistant position).

It's amazing the things you can hear and have access to as an upper level assistant in many of these Fortune 100 companies. That among other reasons is why I don't work in corporate America anymore.

 

[StageLeft]

shifrbv

You aren't being fair. NOBODY in this thread has denied the fact that racism is alive and strong in the US (or anywhere), and that it is to be faught against (also to be fought against is my poor spell-checking). Just because we have varying views on the matter doesn't mean that we don't agree on this.

 

[classy]

shifrbv, I am glad you posted what you did. It doesn't excuse me from some of my short comings, but so many people believe these things don't happen. And unfortunately they do and quite often.

 

[shifrbv]

Skoorb - From what I read in this post, people are putting down Affirmative Action. But from where I stand, I see it as the only way many minorities could even make it into white, male dominated Fortune 500 companies. People on this board are calling for an end to it, but yet, they suggest no other remedy against the prevalent discrimination which both you and I and apparantly others in this thread know goes on (even though we do have Affirmative Action right at this very moment!). This to me seems wrong. Do they think if they take away the program, the problems will fix themselves and disappear? This hasn't happened with welfare, why do they think it will happen with discrimination?

 

[Michael]

The other point I would like to make is that whites often complain about not getting a chance to talk to blacks about these very issues. I was pissed at classy (".&quot before because he was branding all Republicans racist by definition.

He is not doing that now. Assuming that he really is black (there is no way to tell), calling him racist and then rejecting his point of view simply cuts out the discussion.

Note that he admitted that there are blacks who are racist as well. He also is not denying that it works two ways.

Also note that his profile says he is living in NJ which has been in the news recently with confirmation that NJ State Troopers used racial profiling in selecting who to pull over. A charge thatthe Republican Governor (who I strongly supported when I was living in NJ - Bergen County) denied.

In his position I would be mad as well.

I cannot even come close to denying that racism exists and I cannot deny that it will effect him much more than it ever will effect me (even though I was a minority where I grew up and I was literally told that my chance of promotion was much smaller becuase I belonged to that minority).

The question is - what solution can be offered?

Michael

ps - I also agree with classy, he came into this thread to defend Rev. Jackson. Are there any blacks in this thread that were expressing their negative opinion of what he did?

 

[Michael]

shirbv - Actually, the goal behind welfare reform is coming into being Welfare Article. I admit that Forbes is a right-wing source, but they are fairly responsible in their reporting. Edit - link does't work - I subscribe and read the article, it might work later today as it is from the most recent issue.

I disagree that Affirmative Action is needed in the Fortune 500. All it takes is more managers like me working within the system. Also, there needs to be real action taken against companies that discriminate. I do not agree with quotas, but large fines that make it very uneconomical to keep racists and sexists in management is fine by me.

Michael

 

[Digobick]

<< &quot;We've reached the point where affirmative action has been taken so far that, in fact, it's become an abuse.&quot; >> -Dick Cheney

I agree. :Q

 

[shifrbv]

Michael - I know this was probably not directed at me, but in all seriousness, do you really believe that there can be any other solution besides a mandate which requires minorities to be hired? I know from working with these upper level executives and managers, they have a mindset, it's sort of like a corporate club. These people have been churned through a corporate system, many of them what I would call corporate-lifers, where they are used to being in a certain environment (a white, male-dominated one) and used to having things run a certain way (the way it makes the company the most profit). Any change to that is very difficult and very much despised. I can't believe that some of the 50 year old men I have worked with would suddenly change their minds on a dime and make it easy for those who don't fit their proper &quot;corporate&quot; stereotype to infiltrate the organization and start running the show. No way it would have ever happened at the 2 large companies I worked for. They were and are still white, male-dominated organizations. Even with Affirmative Action, this fact remains and people buck our current mandate all the time.

In addition, I forgot about this one. I worked for an electrical engineering company who had a branch office in my city. The home office, which was made up of about 1,000 people had no blacks, asians, or hispanics. Our branch office was desparately looking to hire engineers. We had one black gentleman come in for an interview. He had a good resume and didn't seem any better or worse than anyone else in the company. When the interview was over, my boss basically implied that guy had a snowball's chance in hell. They ended up hiring a guy who had graduated from a local trade school and had been working at UPS (I think because he was cheap, but he was also white). Later, the company did bring someone on who was on H1B visa, but I think they got some type of tax break for it. That guy used to complain about the racism at work to me all the time. After he got his citizenship, he quit right away and moved out of state to work for another company.

This stuff happens too often. It's just that most white males are not sensitive to the issue and therefore think it should be reversed.

 

[shifrbv]

Michael - I disagree with you on the welfare statement in at least one respect. In my state, food stamps have been severly cut back so much so that our local food banks are under severe pressure. This past year was the worst in state history and food banks in smaller, rural areas in some cases ran out of food to give to these people. The local news stations were advising people of the problem and posting phone numbers and addresses where people could make donations. We've had a lot of industry leave my state and very little new industry coming in. There are alot of people who have been squeezed out and are working at Wal-Mart trying to support their families. Maybe they should go back to school, who knows, but in the meantime, they need to pay their bills and provide food and minimum wage isn't cutting it.

 

[classy]

shifrbv and Michael man am I glad you guys showed up thanks. You two guys put it words I was unable. I became to emotionally charged to deal with issues as you two have. That black and white stuff can get to you sometimes. I admit there is a problem. But the central attack has been its our fault. No minority is at blame for this discrimnation stuff. shifrbv I am glad you bought up the asian woman, because affirmative action is there to protect all minoritys, not just blacks. Just like most people believe its only black people on welfare. These things are not true. They are in fact very far from the truth. But when someone like myself starts to speak and am emotional about the situation we say things that make us look rather racist ourselves. And most of the time its not how we really feel. Man there are times being a minority in America is really tough, its not easy. There is nothing more that we want than to be looked at just as another person. But more often than not a door gets slammed in our face. We get absolutely villianized on TV. Man you ever watch Cops. LOL And America sees that stuff and thinks its the norm. Then little old white ladys see you and live in fear. One time there was little old precious white lady struggling with bags at the store. I didn't evem ask I just grab her bags and said I got these for you. She almost had a heart attack. When we got to the car she said young man I never thought I would ever have such a sweet gesture done for me like that. I said no problem. And she said I was a sweet heart. It made me feel good. I might have changed how that woman viewed a black person. But its going take all of us and takes more than just you do it yourself. We need whites to stand with us against racism and not make us the object of their frustration.

 

[Corn]

I never said that I found no one else here to be a racist--YOU said I defended racist people in this thread when that clearly is not true. My issue, again, is your delivery of your message, being: &quot;If you don't agree with me you are a racist scumbag, and fvck your family too&quot;.

Michael is being too generous in his assessment of your character. You take a brush and paint everyone that doesn't lick your sack as a racist.

Case in point: Bryan.

While he is ignorant of what Def Comedy Jam is all about, doesn't mean he's a racist, only that he doesn't know. Ignorance is not racism, however racism can be the result of ignorance. You, in turn, scream racism at him for no other reason than your disagreement regarding the merits of a few failed social programs and his very valid points regarding &quot;white history month&quot; and such. His comments were in now way racist--but you tell him that his family can fvck off, what's that all about?

I'll tell you what it's about--you are blinded by your emotions -- just like you didn't fully read or even attempt to understand any of my previous points and examples, you didn't really read what Bryan was saying and instead just dismiss him with a &quot;fvck you&quot;.

As much as you want to be heard, you also need to listen. Only by listening can you better communicate what it is that you are really trying to accomplish.

 

[BoberFett]

I'm not going to even pretend to have the answer. All I have opinions, and you know what they say about those.

<< I might have changed how that woman viewed a black person. >>

The situation you talked about, one on one interaction between people of different races, is how you solve racism, IMO.

My problem with Affirmative Action is that it's forced integration. Have you ever heard the saying

<< A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. >>

On the surface, programs that mandate the mixing of races accomplish their task. But if you look underneath you see that what they do is expand the divide, by creating anymosity between races. If a business owner is punished for discriminating against a black job applicant, do you think that's going to change the way he thinks about blacks? Not bloody well likely. By forcing him to hire a black person the temporary goal of providing work is solved, but the overall goal of a culture where color isn't an issue is set back.

 

[StageLeft]

shifrbv

You said that AA is something to really help minorities get into Fortune 500 companies - but what about the really high-up positions? It won't help here, whereas if everyone knew for a fact that the minorities working in such companies were there based on merit alone they would stand a greater chance of gaining high up positions.

AA is really just a patch for a bigger problem. Instead of helping education and housing at a young age we use it to patch up the problem when they are older. In fact it really has no way of telling if you are hiring somebody who has the potential and just needs the right environment, or is in fact quite uncapable of the position.

AA seems to me too late, if it was taken away yes something else should be done - but AA isn't good enough anyway and something else should be done regardless; namely better social programs for disadvantaged minorities. Sticking some AA legislation in gets things done right away and what I propose is much slower, but ultimately is better.

I mean whats better taking somebody from gang-ridden projects and throwing them into an office or taking that person out of the gang-ridden projects at an early home, giving them a better neighborhood, schooling, environment. Then when they get to the office it will be 100% because of their own merits and everyone will know it. No complaints and everyone will be happier.

bobberfett seems to have this idea too...

I mean remember when you were a kid and you beat on your brother and you were forced to shake hands? Did it really make you any less wanting to continue to pummel him? No - it made you mad

 

[shifrbv]

classy - I think the problem stems from overgeneralizations like you mentioned. I think individuals are racists, not groups, and I'm sure alot of it is perpetuated by the media just as you stated. People need to change their thinking, but it's hard when you live in fear or resentment of that other person. People don't always want to understand because it's easier to build up a wall than to face that other person and acknowledge them as your equal.

I try to do this in my own life, but I'll admit that it's sometimes hard. I think it's hard for many people and it takes alot of work. It's obvious others feel the same way. Like someone mentioned, it's only been 35 years since black people were given the vote and 80 years since women received the opportunity. It's only been a generation since minorities started entering the workforce in traditional white male professions. Things are slowly starting to change, but obviously, we can't stop now and need to keep up the efforts.

 

[Blackhawk2]

There will always be racism. Racism has existed for thousands of years and it exists today. Recognition of race is racism.

 

[Corn]

Now if you had started off posting in this thread like you did with that last message Classy you definately would have gotten the nod from me instead of the virtual back of my hand.

Racism is not any one particular group of people's fault, either majority or minority. Unfortunately it's a human trait to fear what is unknown and different--only by living together in the spirit of hope will eventually ebb the feeling of the &quot;unknown&quot; and hence rid our society of those baseless fears of one another.

Your example of &quot;Cops&quot; brings an interesting point of why I, personally, believe that welfare reform is needed.

Crime is not a &quot;color&quot; issue, but a poverty issue. It is an unfortunate fact that most inner city residents are poor, it's also an unfortunate fact that they also happen to be people of color. This brings me to what Michael had earlier suggested, the fundemental differences between the Republican and Democrat parties--especially in cases of empowering the poor to break the chains of government dependence for their daily sustinance.

IMHO, welfare is a necessary evil that is needed to take care of a segment of the population that, for whatever reason, cannot be gainfully employed. If I were making the decisions, welfare reform would not only consist of cutting off able bodied workers from the rolls after a perscribed time, but instead require a service to be performed in order to receive benefits. This will have 2 benefits as I see it.

1. It gives those that contribute to the welfare system a return on their investment. It would be nice to see those on welfare earn what they are collecting--neighborhood beautification, caring for the infirm, whatever--just get them out there and doing something to return the favor to society.

2. It should give those that are collecting welfare the incentive to find work that will ultimately pay better--perhaps even including a skilled labor training type of system of working and learning.


Will this ever happen? Eh, probably not, but only because it makes sense and the partisans really don't want the status quo changed....

 

[shifrbv]

Skoorb - I appreciate your reply, but I really don't think that every person who benefits from AA is from a gang-ridden environment being shoved into a white office environment. Many of these people are just the same as their white counterparts. They have graduated from college, they have experience, they are respectable people. The only difference, they are someone our sociey classifies as a minority (whether they are from a foreign country or descent or a different gender or different ethnic background).

I myself didn't say that AA was the best alternative, however, it is an alternative that we have right now which is allowing minorities to have positions which they otherwise might never have had the opportunity. No one is really suggesting anything else, except that we let the system work itself out and maybe in several generations we'll be there. It's funny, but I remember a recent thread in which the general consensus was that the US would most likely see either a white woman or a Latino become president before any African-American. With this general mindset, how can anyone think that racism can heal itself? I really do believe that if it were taken away, you would again see many companies hiring those who would fit a certain profile rather than encouraging diversity. Talk about a joke, I was in a diversity training class at one of the Fortune 100 companies I worked for. Funny thing is, there were only a couple of white women and the rest were white males there. What sort of diversity message does that send when there was almost no diversity in that particular group (it was weird)?

If people harbor resentment towards these people, that is their own choice. There's alot of folks who receive opportunities in this world which they did not always earn. Ever heard of the old saying &quot;Life's not fair&quot;? I must have heard my parents say that a hundred times everytime something happened which I didn't like. Do I hate my boss who hired his son for a particular position because he had the ability to do so? His son was a good worker. Do I hate my friend who got a nice position right out of college because her father had some connections to the higher-ups in one particular company? She was a good student and got very lucky. Both these people received opportunities which I could never have hoped to receive because of my own situation. Were they any better than others who might have applied for the same positions? Probably not, but they had inside connections. They were operating in the same fashion as many minorities do by supporting legislators who will give them the AA opportunity. There are a ton of situations like this which go on which are just as unfair, yet we don't hear about nepotism laws or insider-connection legislation. These are just accepted.

While we might wish that society will educate itself and gradually become that ideal in which we can all operate as equals, we've got to keep avenues open which allow those at the bottom upward mobility. At least until we can proudly say that there are no more at the bottom.

 

[BoberFett]

Hehe, that's an interesting way to look at itbefore. AA is like your really well connected uncle that finds everyone jobs.

That said, I don't have quite as much respect for someone who got their position through connections as I do for someone who was hired solely on qualifications. That's not to say the people hired in this manner aren't qualified, but there is something to be said for paying your dues.

 

[classy]

Hmmm interesting. The problem I see that a lot of people have here is that they think these programs are useless because they fail to bridge the racial socialism. Case in point, affirmative action is there to provide equal oppurtunity for employment not provide a way for races to communicate. Minoritys need jobs, not firends. That what the law is for jobs, not a social gathering. If you refuse to make people hire people of color and yet at the same time say we cut you off from the system what is person suppose to do? You got to eat, got to have a place to stay. You know the one problem that I just can't seem to get over is this. In all these posts I keep seeing equality. When in the history of America has there ever been equality? It has never existed. Never been seen. Your voting came for free. Mine came with a precious price. Your freedom came for free. Mine with the shedding of blood. You go cruising its okay. I go cruising I might end up in jail or worse. You ever seen an inner city school? Compare that with one in a white neighborhood. There is no equality here and it never has been. And I seriously doubt that after 400 years of existance, we are going to change it in 20 years. It doesn't work that way. Until we reach that point we have to try and balance the scales. We need balance more than reform. If we get more balance the reform will come.

 

[shifrbv]

Boberfett - I hope you are looking at President-elect Bush in this way then because he certainly hasn't abstained from riding the gravy train during his lifetime.

 

[BoberFett]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold up there bucko!

My voting came free? A lot of people died for my right to vote. Ever heard of the Revolutionary War? And there were an awful lot of white people that died to end slavery.

Damn, you are unbelievable classy. Get off your damn high horse. You have some nerve, calling others ignorant racists. After that last post I am flabergasted.

My right to vote was free? My freedom was free? Fsck you, race baiter.

 

[Michael]

classy is right. Minorities need jobs, not hugs and warm feelings.

However, AA has been around for quite a while and it has hit a wall and I think it is now counter-productive. Quotas and reverse discrimination give a rallying point for the current status quo. Why would white males want the current system to change, they benefit the most from it right now?

I think that very strict enforcement of the current laws with large fines and public punishment could go a long way towards shocking companies into weeding out the natural racism/sexism that exists (people tend to be with similar people). As much as I hate trial lawyers and the crazy lengths that the Americans with Disabilities Act has been taken to, the very public humiliation and fines givem to companies such as Texaco and Coca-Cola have done more to spur proper hiring practices than AA ever did.

BoberFett - It is the lack of connections that hurts minorities the most. People who come from middle to upper class families have a built in social net that helps them. They beat out equal qualified to slightly better qualified people all the time because of these connections. I do not have a huge problem with that, as long as the connections are social and not sexist or racist.

In the end, a meritocracy is the best way to run a company. GE is considered the best run company in the world and they are a fierce meritocracy. They do have a problem with the current number of minorities in high-level positions. Jack Welch himself has turned attention to the problem. The minorities already there do not want the meritocracy approach to change, they're trying to get more qualified minority candidates in so they can benefit from the system.

We all can help in this by being open to friendships with other races.

classy - Do not forget that a great deal of white blood was shed in the American Revolution and the Civil War. The recent Civil Rights efforts are closer in time, but nowhere near unique.

Michael

 

[Blackhawk2]

There always has been racism and there always will be racism. Racism is in the individual, nothing society does will change how an individual feels.

 

[shifrbv]

Michael - I'm not so sure about the enforcing of current laws. What has enforcement of sexual harrassment laws done? It's only created a male backlash against women at many companies. Look at the girl who wanted to go to West Point. Tne public basically &quot;lynched&quot; her with their sentiments. Remember the Clarence Thomas case or how about the high-ranking woman Army general (can't remember her name) that was in the news recently. The public is always discrediting these cases. There is all kinds of media spin as well and I don't know that they really helped the cause of women and sexual harrassment.

In fact, one of my previous employer's was denied a raise and stock options due to his being accused of sexual harrasment by one of his employees. Talk about a bitter man! The men in the department all had sentiments on that one.