I've never understood equalizers on audio equipment...

[funboy6942]

I am calling shens. Everyone in this day and age has to know how or what a EQ does. Ever since the 80's and they dumped the tune knob it all been about eq's.

 

[ribbon13]

EQ's are imperative for accurate room loading for digital theatre.

Nothing like have 7 channels of 1/3 octave (31 band) equalization.

As for destructive to the signal... hardly if you get a quality one. But like anything quality costs

 

[apoppin]

Eq is for cheap audio systems or rooms that are not neutral for audio listening.

A truly "high end" audiophile system has NO tone controls or even "balance".

 

[daveshel]

Equalizers, like all tone controls, destroy your imaging. Not that there was much left these days with all the crap on the market.

The doubling of frequencies, by the way, correspond with octaves.

 

[d3n]

Originally posted by: daveshel
Equalizers, like all tone controls, destroy your imaging. Not that there was much left these days with all the crap on the market.

The doubling of frequencies, by the way, correspond with octaves.

Are you referring to craptastic mastering of music or just the music itself. It just annoys me how everything is mastered to just sound loud which crushes all the nuances in music. No equalizer has a chance of fixing that. Crap in crap out.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Eq is for cheap audio systems or rooms that are not neutral for audio listening.

A truly "high end" audiophile system has NO tone controls or even "balance".

That's actually only partially correct.

EQ's are great for correcting peaks and nulls in your listening room, especially for ranges where it really matters (mainly bass).

Unfortunately, there's no perfect room design. Using an EQ is the best way to get a well integrated, flat (or house curve, if you prefer) bass response at your listening position.

 

[mercanucaribe]

What happens to the frequences between the sliders? Does the equalizer form a smooth curve of all frequences?

 

[ribbon13]

Originally posted by: d3n

Originally posted by: daveshel
Equalizers, like all tone controls, destroy your imaging. Not that there was much left these days with all the crap on the market.

The doubling of frequencies, by the way, correspond with octaves.

Are you referring to craptastic mastering of music or just the music itself. It just annoys me how everything is mastered to just sound loud which crushes all the nuances in music. No equalizer has a chance of fixing that. Crap in crap out.

What you're referring to is 'white noise' or 'clipping' because of overzealous use of gates/limiters/compressors. A prime example of victims of this are 'remastered' albums.

 

[Shawn]

the lower frequencies are the bass, middle frequencies are the mids, and the higher frequencies are the treble.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: brigden
I've got a third question: Would one be able to hear the imperfections of an mp3 more easily on a higher quality sound card?

Any modern soundcard is MORE than capable of making MP3 compression artifacts plainly obvious.

Viper GTS

Yes, but the majority of computer speakers are not.

ZV

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: apoppin
Eq is for cheap audio systems or rooms that are not neutral for audio listening.

A truly "high end" audiophile system has NO tone controls or even "balance".

That's actually only partially correct.

EQ's are great for correcting peaks and nulls in your listening room, especially for ranges where it really matters (mainly bass).

Unfortunately, there's no perfect room design. Using an EQ is the best way to get a well integrated, flat (or house curve, if you prefer) bass response at your listening position.

EQs colour the sound and destroy the imaging . . . NO audiophile would consider one . . . it is FAR better to 'correct' the room and place the "right" speakers correctly.

OTOH, EQs might have a place in a high-end Home Theatre.
(correcting 7 channels w/o Eq would be quite a "challenge", i imagine)

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: apoppin
EQs colour the sound and destroy the imaging . . . NO audiophile would consider one . . .

Sound, like anything else, is a preference. Unless you're doing mastering or running sound for an audience there's no reason not to indulge personal preference in how something sounds. If someone prefers the sound through an EQ, what's wrong with that? It's no different from someone not liking sushi to eat.

ZV

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: apoppin
EQs colour the sound and destroy the imaging . . . NO audiophile would consider one . . .

Sound, like anything else, is a preference. Unless you're doing mastering or running sound for an audience there's no reason not to indulge personal preference in how something sounds. If someone prefers the sound through an EQ, what's wrong with that? It's no different from someone not liking sushi to eat.

ZV

Sound - for audiophiles it is the faithful REproduction of sound. Note - i said, "for audiophiles",

ANYthing you place in the way - like an EQ or tone or even baiance controls - degrades the signal.

i have no objections to anyone listing to whatever however the way they want . . . but i am letting you know what audiophiles think
[generally].

i USED to be an audiophile. My last system was stacked Dahlquist DQ-10s [imaged], a Mark Levinson modified Harmon Kardon Citation TubePre Amp [all sorts of amps incluyding MacIntosh, Great American Sound, Denon Luxman - generally 600+w per channel] Thorens Turntrable and Grado Signature cartridge [again many many cartridges including moving coil, etc.].

IF i put ANY EQ in line it just DESTROYED the imaging and the distortion at certain frequencies was obvious - even with the "best" EQs . . . "blind", we could pick out the EQ 10 out of 10 times.

Of course it was a very "nice" system for its day.


accurately reproducing the original is not a "preference"
EQ gets in the way
:thumbsdown:

edited

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: apoppin
Eq is for cheap audio systems or rooms that are not neutral for audio listening.

A truly "high end" audiophile system has NO tone controls or even "balance".

That's actually only partially correct.

EQ's are great for correcting peaks and nulls in your listening room, especially for ranges where it really matters (mainly bass).

Unfortunately, there's no perfect room design. Using an EQ is the best way to get a well integrated, flat (or house curve, if you prefer) bass response at your listening position.

EQs colour the sound and destroy the imaging . . . NO audiophile would consider one . . . it is FAR better to 'correct' the room and place the "right" speakers correctly.

OTOH, EQs might have a place in a high-end Home Theatre.
(correcting 7 channels w/o Eq would be quite a "challenge", i imagine)

Equalization affects the sound in two ways (bear with me) - in intensity, and in phase. If the phase is unchanged by the EQ (which, IIRC, is possible), then the only thing that can affect the imaging is the change in intensity, which I don't think affects imaging.

NL5 - http://sound.westhost.com/linkwitz-transform.htm

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: apoppin
Eq is for cheap audio systems or rooms that are not neutral for audio listening.

A truly "high end" audiophile system has NO tone controls or even "balance".

That's actually only partially correct.

EQ's are great for correcting peaks and nulls in your listening room, especially for ranges where it really matters (mainly bass).

Unfortunately, there's no perfect room design. Using an EQ is the best way to get a well integrated, flat (or house curve, if you prefer) bass response at your listening position.

EQs colour the sound and destroy the imaging . . . NO audiophile would consider one . . . it is FAR better to 'correct' the room and place the "right" speakers correctly.

OTOH, EQs might have a place in a high-end Home Theatre.
(correcting 7 channels w/o Eq would be quite a "challenge", i imagine)

Equalization affects the sound in two ways (bear with me) - in intensity, and in phase. If the phase is unchanged by the EQ (which, IIRC, is possible), then the only thing that can affect the imaging is the change in intensity, which I don't think affects imaging.

NL5 - http://sound.westhost.com/linkwitz-transform.htm

The LAST thing i want to do is discuss audio with an engineer.
(they are all deaf, anyway)

:roll:

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: ribbon13
EQ's are imperative for accurate room loading for digital theatre.

Nothing like have 7 channels of 1/3 octave (31 band) equalization.

As for destructive to the signal... hardly if you get a quality one. But like anything quality costs

That thing is still gonna introduce crap and phase irregularities.

Equilizers simply aren't needed nor wanted in hi-fi, especially graphic equilizers.

Now home theater is a whole nutter thing, but then again that's kinda the difference between hi-fi and home theater.

With Home theater a good parametric EQ can work wonders on the sub and the auto-eq that is done on some receivers is very nice as its kept in the digital domain.

graphic eq - your frequencies and width of the band is kept constant, hence the position of the knobs show a "graphic" representation of your boosts/cuts.

Parametric eq - you can set the frequencies and width of the band, much, much, much greater control. Also very helpful in car audio installations to tame problem frequencies. And really in all honesty, a MUST for a quality home theater.

Last EQ tip: You can cut a boost but you can't boost a null. Meaning always decrease a frequency rather than boost it because if you're trying to boost it you're probably straining the amp fighting a frequency that the room simply won't produce well without readjusting the speakers or listening position.

 

[ribbon13]

A few of my favotire models ->
DR / THD/ Bands / Range / I/O

Alesis M-EQ 230
107dB / .005% / 30 / 12bB / 1/4"-RCA

ART 355
? / .01% / 31 / 6dB/12dB / 1/4"-XLR

Ashly gqx 3102
? / .01% / 31 / 6dB/15dB / 1/4"-XLR

dbx 1231
109dB / .005% / 31 / 6dB/15dB / 1/4"-XLR

dbx 3231L
114dB / .003% / 31 / 6dB/12dB / XLR

DOD SR231
?/ .004% / 31 / 12dB / 1/4"-XLR

Rane GE-60
? / .009% / 30 / 12dB / 1/4"-XLR

Symetrix 533-E
112dB / .002% / 31 / 6dB/12dB / 1/4"-XLR

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: apoppin
Eq is for cheap audio systems or rooms that are not neutral for audio listening.

A truly "high end" audiophile system has NO tone controls or even "balance".

That's actually only partially correct.

EQ's are great for correcting peaks and nulls in your listening room, especially for ranges where it really matters (mainly bass).

Unfortunately, there's no perfect room design. Using an EQ is the best way to get a well integrated, flat (or house curve, if you prefer) bass response at your listening position.

EQs colour the sound and destroy the imaging . . . NO audiophile would consider one . . . it is FAR better to 'correct' the room and place the "right" speakers correctly.

OTOH, EQs might have a place in a high-end Home Theatre.
(correcting 7 channels w/o Eq would be quite a "challenge", i imagine)

There's no practical way to correct the room for all of the peaks and nulls once you get down around the 20hz range. You can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the room (and millions in a concert hall) and still not smooth out the peaks and nulls without affecting nearby notes.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: apoppin
Eq is for cheap audio systems or rooms that are not neutral for audio listening.

A truly "high end" audiophile system has NO tone controls or even "balance".

That's actually only partially correct.

EQ's are great for correcting peaks and nulls in your listening room, especially for ranges where it really matters (mainly bass).

Unfortunately, there's no perfect room design. Using an EQ is the best way to get a well integrated, flat (or house curve, if you prefer) bass response at your listening position.

EQs colour the sound and destroy the imaging . . . NO audiophile would consider one . . . it is FAR better to 'correct' the room and place the "right" speakers correctly.

OTOH, EQs might have a place in a high-end Home Theatre.
(correcting 7 channels w/o Eq would be quite a "challenge", i imagine)

Equalization affects the sound in two ways (bear with me) - in intensity, and in phase. If the phase is unchanged by the EQ (which, IIRC, is possible), then the only thing that can affect the imaging is the change in intensity, which I don't think affects imaging.

NL5 - http://sound.westhost.com/linkwitz-transform.htm

The LAST thing i want to do is discuss audio with an engineer.
(they are all deaf, anyway)

:roll:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: spidey07


Last EQ tip: You can cut a boost but you can't boost a null. Meaning always decrease a frequency rather than boost it because if you're trying to boost it you're probably straining the amp fighting a frequency that the room simply won't produce well without readjusting the speakers or listening position.

i used to setup home audio "professionally" . . . although i would NEVER use one in an audiophile system . . . [parametric] EQs have their uses in lesser systems or where unchangeable room acoustics are a real problem . . . . i would occasionally "boost" a 'null' if the only other option was to decrease too many other settings.


EDIT:

i AM sorry, Howard . . .b ut i couldn't resist. You ARE an engineer?
(?)

i have friends in engineering - we use to argue for hours and i'd always settle the issue by bringing them over to listen . . . . a LOT of them simply couldn't hear the difference.

2nd EDIT: Reading the NEXT post, i guess i was right.
:roll:

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: apoppin
Eq is for cheap audio systems or rooms that are not neutral for audio listening.

A truly "high end" audiophile system has NO tone controls or even "balance".

That's actually only partially correct.

EQ's are great for correcting peaks and nulls in your listening room, especially for ranges where it really matters (mainly bass).

Unfortunately, there's no perfect room design. Using an EQ is the best way to get a well integrated, flat (or house curve, if you prefer) bass response at your listening position.

EQs colour the sound and destroy the imaging . . . NO audiophile would consider one . . . it is FAR better to 'correct' the room and place the "right" speakers correctly.

OTOH, EQs might have a place in a high-end Home Theatre.
(correcting 7 channels w/o Eq would be quite a "challenge", i imagine)

There's no practical way to correct the room for all of the peaks and nulls once you get down around the 20hz range. You can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the room (and millions in a concert hall) and still not smooth out the peaks and nulls without affecting nearby notes.

What you can do is design a room, that when fitted with specific treatments, can have a null-less bass range. Then you can just use a good EQ to cut out the peaks with high-Q notches.

http://www.rpginc.com/products/roomoptimizer/

actually has an option for that, IIRC

EDIT: Bass modes aren't a problem below the Schroeder frequency, which for most (2nd ed listening rooms is above 20Hz anyway. Odd that you picked that number.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: spidey07


Last EQ tip: You can cut a boost but you can't boost a null. Meaning always decrease a frequency rather than boost it because if you're trying to boost it you're probably straining the amp fighting a frequency that the room simply won't produce well without readjusting the speakers or listening position.

i used to setup home audio "professionally" . . . although i would NEVER use one in an audiophile system . . . they have their uses in lesser systems or where unchangeable room acoustics are a real problem . . . . i would occasionally "boost" a 'null' if the only other option was to decrease too many other settings.

well sure. but if you add 20 db to it and it only rise 3s at the listening position....

well...given your experience you would know what to do.

I was giving general advice on how folks traditionally setup their EQ and push the lower bands to the max and still wonder why they have no bass and their amp clips at 10 o'clock on the dial.

Man, I'm really thinking of opening up a home theater installation shop. Ya know, hook up with a builder for nice homes and sub-contract the design/installation of a home theater with them.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: spidey07


Last EQ tip: You can cut a boost but you can't boost a null. Meaning always decrease a frequency rather than boost it because if you're trying to boost it you're probably straining the amp fighting a frequency that the room simply won't produce well without readjusting the speakers or listening position.

i used to setup home audio "professionally" . . . although i would NEVER use one in an audiophile system . . . they have their uses in lesser systems or where unchangeable room acoustics are a real problem . . . . i would occasionally "boost" a 'null' if the only other option was to decrease too many other settings.

well sure. but if you add 20 db to it and it only rise 3s at the listening position....

well...given your experience you would know what to do.

I was giving general advice on how folks traditionally setup their EQ and push the lower bands to the max and still wonder why they have no bass and their amp clips at 10 o'clock on the dial.

Man, I'm really thinking of opening up a home theater installation shop. Ya know, hook up with a builder for nice homes and sub-contract the design/installation of a home theater with them.

i was just being 'picky' . . . Engineers discussing audio just get me in that mood. :evil:



most of the EQ i did was 'subtle'. i know what you mean about boosting the EQ - a lot of car audio systems users boost ALL the frequencies thinking they'll get more volume - they do - "distortion".

LOTS of headaches in this type of work. Lots of picky rich and incredibly spoiled people with no clue about audio/video but think they do. Problems with getting paid, lawsuits and missed appointments.

Plan it out carefully if you are considering it. If you are good you can make a LOT of money plus have a fantasttic system of your own (all at 1/2 price "accomodation" for brand new equipment).
+++++++++++++++++++++++==

Originally posted by: Apex

There's no practical way to correct the room for all of the peaks and nulls once you get down around the 20hz range. You can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the room (and millions in a concert hall) and still not smooth out the peaks and nulls without affecting nearby notes.

Fortunately there isn't any real need to correct the room for peaks and nulls below 20hz.
(unless you are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for your home audio system)

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: ribbon13

Originally posted by: d3n

Originally posted by: daveshel
Equalizers, like all tone controls, destroy your imaging. Not that there was much left these days with all the crap on the market.

The doubling of frequencies, by the way, correspond with octaves.

Are you referring to craptastic mastering of music or just the music itself. It just annoys me how everything is mastered to just sound loud which crushes all the nuances in music. No equalizer has a chance of fixing that. Crap in crap out.

What you're referring to is 'white noise' or 'clipping' because of overzealous use of gates/limiters/compressors. A prime example of victims of this are 'remastered' albums.

not necissarily with the clipping so much anymore, but there is a lot of sloppy mixing and mastering going on. the generation of audio we have now is the 'pro tools' generation, where it makes it oh-so-easy to compress the sh1t out of everything.

 

[daveshel]

Wow, we need to start an audio enthusiasts' forum.

I'll confess: I'm a Dynaco/Advent guy.