I've never seen so many unrepentant former Nazis in my life

[Narmer]

Well, I apologize if I misunderstood, however my assumption was based on this;

That was in reference to those who repeat the same things that were said over 70 years ago. That is why I asked if there has been a definitive response to all the charges Hitler made against the Jews. IMHO, it is dangerous to dismiss these accusations as those of a mad man because Germany was the most educated nation then and it fell under Hitler's spell. Today, we have wannabees who just don't espouse racial superiority but other things verbatim. I understand full well that the accusations go into the conspirational but I think it is necessary to tackle them head on, unless the public is to think that Hitler had some valid points.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

The quote from Hermann Goring at Nuremberg is pretty instructive:

Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Still holds true to this day.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The quote from Hermann Goring at Nuremberg is pretty instructive:



Still holds true to this day.

Not all truth is beautiful is it? He was spot on.

 

[Modelworks]

Some may want to look at the history of eugenics in the USA before they claim Hitler as someone who invented the idea of supremacy and the nazi party ideals.

This country has a very dark history in that area that is not taught in school. Films and books and all the people involved from that era are not talked about because people want to just forget about it. You ask people on the street about people like Rockefeller and they think he was some kind of millionaire that did great things.

When Nazi administrators went on trial for war crimes in Nuremberg after World War II, they justified the mass sterilizations (over 450,000 in less than a decade) by citing the United States as their inspiration

http://hnn.us/articles/1796.html

Eugenics would have been so much bizarre parlor talk had it not been for extensive financing by corporate philanthropies, specifically the Carnegie Institution, the Rockefeller Foundation and the Harriman railroad fortune. They were all in league with some of America's most respected scientists hailing from such prestigious universities as Stamford, Yale, Harvard, and Princeton. These academicians espoused race theory and race science, and then faked and twisted data to serve eugenics' racist aims.

Stanford president David Starr Jordan originated the notion of "race and blood" in his 1902 racial epistle "Blood of a Nation," in which the university scholar declared that human qualities and conditions such as talent and poverty were passed through the blood.

In 1904, the Carnegie Institution established a laboratory complex at Cold Spring Harbor on Long Island that stockpiled millions of index cards on ordinary Americans, as researchers carefully plotted the removal of families, bloodlines and whole peoples. From Cold Spring Harbor, eugenics advocates agitated in the legislatures of America, as well as the nation's social service agencies and associations.

The Harriman railroad fortune paid local charities, such as the New York Bureau of Industries and Immigration, to seek out Jewish, Italian and other immigrants in New York and other crowded cities and subject them to deportation, trumped up confinement or forced sterilization.

The Rockefeller Foundation helped found the German eugenics program and even funded the program that Josef Mengele worked in before he went to Auschwitz.

Much of the spiritual guidance and political agitation for the American eugenics movement came from California's quasi-autonomous eugenic societies, such as the Pasadena-based Human Betterment Foundation and the California branch of the American Eugenics Society, which coordinated much of their activity with the Eugenics Research Society in Long Island. These organizations--which functioned as part of a closely-knit network--published racist eugenic newsletters and pseudoscientific journals, such as Eugenical News and Eugenics, and propagandized for the Nazis.

Eighteen solutions were explored in a Carnegie-supported 1911 "Preliminary Report of the Committee of the Eugenic Section of the American Breeder's Association to Study and to Report on the Best Practical Means for Cutting Off the Defective Germ-Plasm in the Human Population." Point eight was euthanasia.

The most commonly suggested method of eugenicide in America was a "lethal chamber" or public locally operated gas chambers. In 1918, Popenoe, the Army venereal disease specialist during World War I, co-wrote the widely used textbook, Applied Eugenics, which argued, "From an historical point of view, the first method which presents itself is execution… Its value in keeping up the standard of the race should not be underestimated." Applied Eugenics also devoted a chapter to "Lethal Selection," which operated "through the destruction of the individual by some adverse feature of the environment, such as excessive cold, or bacteria, or by bodily deficiency."

In its infamous 1927 decision, Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, "It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind…. Three generations of imbeciles are enough." This decision opened the floodgates for thousands to be coercively sterilized or otherwise persecuted as subhuman. Years later, the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials quoted Holmes's words in their own defense.

Only after eugenics became entrenched in the United States was the campaign transplanted into Germany, in no small measure through the efforts of California eugenicists, who published booklets idealizing sterilization and circulated them to German official and scientists.

 

[boomerang]

Some may want to look at the history of eugenics in the USA before they claim Hitler as someone who invented the idea of supremacy and the nazi party ideals.

This country has a very dark history in that area that is not taught in school. Films and books and all the people involved from that era are not talked about because people want to just forget about it. You ask people on the street about people like Rockefeller and they think he was some kind of millionaire that did great things.


http://hnn.us/articles/1796.html

Some of what Hitler implemented was learned from us. I'm reading about some of those in the eugenics movement right now.

It fits in nicely with the mindset of those in power right now. I'm wondering if it's going to make a comeback. The fight over the abortion aspects of the health care bill are telling.

 

[peonyu]

Kind of rude to compare them to the Nazis, the context is completely different. For one, native-Europeans are likely to be minorities in thier own countries due to immigration in the near future. Theres so many people moving there that thats the prediction. Limited immigration im sure they would be fine with, but mass immigration is why there are people are popping up against it. Large sections of European cities more resemble Mecca than they do a European city [and are often hostile to native europeans]. The nazis on the other hand, hated thier own countrymen. Jews were in Europe since the Romans [2000 years].

 

[Lemon law]

To a certain extent, I do not think we really understand the evil that was Hitler. Populist movements like Hitler's are a dime a dozen, but after Hitlers arrest and subsequent imprisonment after the failed Nazi beer hall putch, Hitler had a plan that worked like clockwork.

Everyone underestimated Hitler, but Hitler unerringly stuck to his plan. And in Hitler's arms race for Germany, he had to strike before England and its allies caught up.

And even Hitler later admitted, had France resisted his plans to reoccupy Aluse Lorrain, Hitler was not yet ready to take on France, and Germany would have had to back down. A few years later Hitler was ready and came very close to winning WW2.

 

[Modelworks]

Some of what Hitler implemented was learned from us. I'm reading about some of those in the eugenics movement right now.

It fits in nicely with the mindset of those in power right now. I'm wondering if it's going to make a comeback. The fight over the abortion aspects of the health care bill are telling.

That is the troubling part. If you look at the eugenics movement, the people involved with it didn't just fade away and stop believing in it, they just changed names. The organization planned parenthood is a prime example.

From their site:

Planned Parenthood is rooted in the courage and tenacity of American women and men willing to fight for women's health, rights, and equality. Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, is one of the movement's great heroes.

Who was Margaret Sanger ? From her book

The emergency problem of segregation and sterilization must be faced
immediately. Every feeble-minded girl or woman of the hereditary
type, especially of the moron class, should be segregated during the
reproductive period. Otherwise, she is almost certain to bear imbecile
children, who in turn are just as certain to breed other defectives. The
male defectives are no less dangerous. Segregation carried out for one
or two generations would give us only partial control of the problem.
Moreover, when we realize that each feeble-minded person is a potential
source of an endless progeny of defect, we prefer the policy of
immediate sterilization, of making sure that parenthood is absolutely
prohibited to the feeble-minded.

This, I say, is an emergency measure. But how are we to prevent the
repetition in the future of a new harvest of imbecility, the recurrence
of new generations of morons and defectives, as the logical and
inevitable consequence of the universal application of the traditional
and widely approved command to increase and multiply?

At the present moment, we are offered three distinct and more or less
mutually exclusive policies by which civilization may hope to protect
itself and the generations of the future from the allied dangers of
imbecility, defect and delinquency.

(1) Philanthropy and Charity: This is the present and traditional method
of meeting the problems of human defect and dependence, of poverty and
delinquency.

(2) Marxian Socialism: This may be considered typical of many widely
varying schemes of more or less revolutionary social reconstruction,
emphasizing the primary importance of environment, education, equal
opportunity, and health, in the elimination of the conditions (i. e.
capitalistic control of industry) which have resulted in biological
chaos and human waste.

(3) Eugenics: Eugenics seems to me to be valuable in its critical and
diagnostic aspects, in emphasizing the danger of irresponsible and
uncontrolled fertility of the "unfit" and the feeble-minded establishing
a progressive unbalance in human society and lowering the birth-rate
among the "fit."

If people took the time to look back at the origin of some of these agencies that are quite often in the media they might be surprised.

 

[Noobtastic]

Hitler's 'control' of industry included a militarist government and authoritarianism; a socialist government is more likely to 'control' industry to protect the people from exploitation.

Militarist and authoritarianism are not unique to the right. The illusion that a "socialist" entity is designed to protect industry from exploitation is textbook communist propaganda.

The only real difference between Hitler and Stalin was economics.

Once you put that aside, they have a lot in common and it wouldn't be unthinkable to have seen a fulfilling relationship had Hitler not attacked the soviets.

There wasn't much difference between the Soviets in the Nazis in terms of power-whoring, human rights, government corruption, etc.

The only real difference was the Nazis ultra-scapegoat of Jews, while the leftist Russians hated the Jews but didn't care enough to design a precise, logical process to exterminate them.

Russians Jews suffered immensely the soviet regime. 300,000+ were killed in the civil war.

the only real, honest contrast between the USSR and Nazi germany is that in soviet russia, all of society was regulated to poverty. Before and after the war. Industry was pro-government, and most of the rich were political elites.

In Nazi germany, at least a sizable minority of the population remained unmolested.

today's german government continues to honor ecnomic and social policies passed by the nazis, and germany has #1 in exports, no?

 

[boomerang]

That is the troubling part. If you look at the eugenics movement, the people involved with it didn't just fade away and stop believing in it, they just changed names. The organization planned parenthood is a prime example.

From their site:



Who was Margaret Sanger ? From her book



If people took the time to look back at the origin of some of these agencies that are quite often in the media they might be surprised.

And those of us that do, get dismissed as being wingnuts.

But, I imagine for those that are prone to accept the whole 'philosophy', someone like Sanger is a hero. Educating oneself is of the utmost importance. One should never quit learning. Under the scenario we're discussing now, hopefully one would at least realize that both political parties are capable of extremes.

This blind following of those in DC. - the notion that government can do it best despite mountains of evidence to the contrary is what troubles me most.

 

[Narmer]

And those of us that do, get dismissed as being wingnuts.

But, I imagine for those that are prone to accept the whole 'philosophy', someone like Sanger is a hero. Educating oneself is of the utmost importance. One should never quit learning. Under the scenario we're discussing now, hopefully one would at least realize that both political parties are capable of extremes.

This blind following of those in DC. - the notion that government can do it best despite mountains of evidence to the contrary is what troubles me most.

All this is very interesting. Are there any other institutions like PP that survived the eugenics era?

 

[TheSlamma]

Seriously Spidey, I don't see how it's possible for a person to think that NAZI's liked Communists/Socialists at all, hell one of Hitlers first acts was to BAN the SPD (a.k.a. Social Democratic Party of Germany [Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands])

 

[CitizenKain]

"I've never seen so many unrepentant former Nazis in my life"



Are you talking about the White House, Dimocrat party or the leftists on this forum?

Guess you haven't seen a picture of a tea party. Although there is a lot more rascal scooters at a tea party convetion.

 

[Modelworks]

All this is very interesting. Are there any other institutions like PP that survived the eugenics era?

Lots of them.

http://www.milbank.org/

The Milbank Memorial Fund is an endowed operating foundation that works to improve health by helping decision makers in the public and private sectors acquire and use the best available evidence to inform policy for health care and population health. The Fund has engaged in nonpartisan analysis, study, research, and communication on significant issues in health policy since its inception in 1905. Its staff organizes and participates in meetings with decision makers and publishes reports, books, and The Milbank Quarterly, a peer-reviewed journal of population health and health policy.

Clarence J. Gamble used part of the fortune made by Procter & Gamble products (including soap) to finance birth control projects for the poor in many parts of the world. He helped to push through legislation in 1937 legalizing birth control in Puerto Rico; the law specified that birth control material was to be distributed by trained eugenicists. A leader in Margaret Sanger's Birth Control Federation, he suggested that they set up a "Negro Project," using black clergy and physicians to promote birth control. He founded the Pathfinder Fund, to promote population control around the world.

Pathfinder Fund
http://www.pathfind.org/site/PageServer

1920s

* Margaret Sanger founds American Birth Control League, opens first US birth control clinic in New York.
* Cincinnati Maternal Health Clinic opens. Dr. Clarence Gamble gives $5,000 to cover first year costs, the first “Pathfinder grant.” Later the Maternal Clinic becomes the Planned Parenthood affiliate.

1930s

* Gamble and team of female volunteers begin to introduce family planning programs in the US; launching birth control clinics and supporting contraceptive research in 40 US cities in 14 states. Most or all become Planned Parenthood affiliates after Planned Parenthood is organized.

1940s

* With interruptions caused by World War II, Gamble reaches agreement with Margaret Sanger to focus on family planning work overseas rather than at home.
* In initial overseas venture, Gamble makes first of many grants to family planning projects in Japan.

They were located in the USA, why would the war stop their work here , unless they saw an opportunity to do what they wanted without limits. Work overseas ? Like extermination ?

http://www.engenderhealth.org

EngenderHealth’s 65-year history is one of innovation, commitment, and dynamism. From our beginning as a small, local volunteer association advocating safe and legal sterilization in the United States, EngenderHealth evolved to the leading international organization dedicated to expanding high-quality, clinic-based, client-centered reproductive health services in the poorest countries of the world.

It was called the Association for Voluntary Surgical Sterilization , but they renamed it to be more PC, who founded it:

It was founded by Marion Stephenson Olden (née Norton), a eugenics-minded social worker, in 1937 as the Sterilization League of New Jersey (SLNJ) with the purpose "to aid in the preparation, promotion, enactment and enforcement of legislative measures designed to provide for the improvement of the human stock by the selective sterilization of the mentally defective and of those afflicted with inherited or inheritable physical disease.

Some of the Members:

Mary Dent Crisp, co-chairwoman of the Republican National Committee.
Millicent H. Fenwick, Republican representative from New Jersey and U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Agencies for Food and Agriculture.
Joseph Fletcher

about Joseph Fletcher

-Joseph Fletcher (1905–1991) was an American professor who founded the theory of situational ethics in the 1960s, and was a pioneer in the field of bioethics. Fletcher was a leading academic involved in the topics of abortion, infanticide, euthanasia, eugenics, and cloning. Ordained as an Episcopal priest, he later identified himself as an atheist.

Another one is Frederick Osborn, a leader in the American Eugenics Society, President of the Pioneer Fund

http://www.pioneerfund.org/

Through our grants program, The Pioneer Fund has changed the face of the social and behavioral sciences by restoring the Darwinian-Galtonian perspective to the mainstream in traditional fields such as anthropology, psychology, and sociology, as well as fostering the newer disciplines of behavioral genetics, neuroscience, evolutionary psychology, and sociobiology.

Pioneer grantees have been elected as the presidents of the American Psychological Association, the American Educational Research Association, the British Psychological Society, the Behavior Genetics Association, the Psychometric Society, the Society for Psychophysiological Research, the Society of Multivariate Experimental Psychology, and the International Society for the Study of Individual Differences

These organizations learned long ago that they couldn't just come out and say reproduction should be limited to the chosen few. Instead they keep pushing on birth control and abortion. They try to make things like abortion, infanticide, seem like something that is no big deal just something people can do. If they can get society to see it as something that is an everyday thing then the next step of limiting who can reproduce is easy to obtain.


Lots more info:
http://www.eugenics-watch.com/index.html

That the Society should pursue eugenic ends by less obvious means, that is by a policy of crypto-eugenics which was apparently proving successful in the US Eugenics Society.

In 1960, Blacker's proposal was adopted by the Eugenics Society. A resolution which was accepted, stated (in part):

The Society's activities in crypto-eugenics should be pursued vigorously, and specifically that the Society should increase its monetary support of the FPA [Family Planning Association, the English branch of Planned Parenthood] and the IPPF [International Planned Parenthood Federation] and should make contact with the Society for the Study of Human Biology, which already has a strong and active memberships, to find out if any relevant projects are contemplated with which the Eugenics Society could assist.

 

[Genx87]

I have been saying for years the abortion movement was an extension of our Eugenics movement from before the 1940s. Hitler and the Nazi's made the eugenics movement go underground because he went too far and the whole idea fell out of vogue.

 

[werepossum]

Seriously Spidey, I don't see how it's possible for a person to think that NAZI's liked Communists/Socialists at all, hell one of Hitlers first acts was to BAN the SPD (a.k.a. Social Democratic Party of Germany [Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands])

As another socialist party the Social Democrats would have been a key competitor for support with the National Socialist German Workers' Party, so it's hardly surprising that Hitler would ban them to consolidate his own support among the moderate (i.e. non-Communist) left.

It's easy to overplay the Nazis' socialist component, considering that the 'Nationalist' and 'German' parts of their behavior pretty much overwhelmed the 'Socialist' part after they took control of Germany. But we right wingers get bent when left wingers call the Nazis a right wing party; they were not. They certainly had some right wing components though - nationalism was admittedly at least as right wing as left even then. Then as now, the farther left, the less one identified with country over ideology.

 

[Linflas]

The quote from Hermann Goring at Nuremberg is pretty instructive:

Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Still holds true to this day.

If that was the case then why did it take a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor to finally draw the US into WWII? No matter how much Roosevelt tried he could not get the US directly involved in the conflict until we were literally attacked by one of the Axis powers. In fact the entire lead up to WWII was the inability and unwillingness of democratically elected leaders to easily lead their countries to war to stop Germany when it would have been far less costly to do so.

 

[Tom]

Umm, I think you're forgetting history. Nazi was the national socialist party.

It took over auto manufacturing, it took over banking, it took over health care.

See the pattern here? Obama = Hitler. Learn from history and stop it.

The unfortunate truth is the Nazis did pretty well turning Germany around economically and as a military power, as well as having the most advanced technology in the world; so how does that show the weakness of "socialism" as compared to capitalism ?

 

[Red Dawn]

we right wingers get bent when left wingers call the Nazis a right wing party; they were not. They certainly had some right wing components though - .

Yeah like Fascism. How about Franco's Spain and Mussolini's Italy, do you consider them Right Wing?

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

If that was the case then why did it take a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor to finally draw the US into WWII? No matter how much Roosevelt tried he could not get the US directly involved in the conflict until we were literally attacked by one of the Axis powers. In fact the entire lead up to WWII was the inability and unwillingness of democratically elected leaders to easily lead their countries to war to stop Germany when it would have been far less costly to do so.

Maybe because FDR and the US back then didn't stoop to the level of lying and creating propaganda needed to create the fear in the population at large? Unlike now *cough*Bush*cough* . Creating fear to do what you want is the political ploy du jour for both parties now.

And are you seriously telling me that you can read his statement and not see that it fits 9/11 to a "T"?