I've had enough of Starting Strength

[MegaVovaN]

Hi all!
I've been doing SS since spring 2008. Skipped about 2 months total. recently found my 1 RMs:
Squat: 235 lb
DL: 275 LB
bench: 165 lb

SS is supposed to end when I can squat 1.5x bw (my BW is 150 lbs, so 225 or more - I can do 235) and Deadlift 2x BW (I am 25 lbs short of 300 but whatever).

So, what would be the next strength training step? I believe I really hit a wall and cannot add weight any more, training close to 1RM is bad I think.

I want a 3x a week program that still has main lifts - squats, DL, bench.
Thanks!

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Is SS supposed to end when you have those stats? It's a linear program that's supposed to progress until you stop. *Shrugs* I can see how you would get sick of the repetition of it all though. I dunno what to tell you though, man. Nothing has more variation than CrossFit, IMHO. I like going to work out 'cause I don't have to do the same ol' crap. All I had to do was DL heavy a couple workouts ago and I tried wayyy harder because of it. It's suggested that you do it 5 times a week, but I will be doing it 3-4 times a week as well so don't consider yourself out due to time conflict or anything. I don't really have any other exciting lifting plans to dip into to give you personal experience from.

 

[MegaVovaN]

Well, SS says that you're a newbie until you can Squat 1.5x BW and DL 2x BW.
Crossfit's variation is a little extreme, but I can give it a go if there's nothing else.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN
Well, SS says that you're a newbie until you can Squat 1.5x BW and DL 2x BW.
Crossfit's variation is a little extreme, but I can give it a go if there's nothing else.

If you don't like not knowing what you're gonna do in advance, you can refer to the archived WODs and go by those. Plus, it's cardio and weightlifting in one. It saves quite a bit of time, if you're in a rush like I am most of the time. You can use this website to find scaled workouts if the volume is a bit much. You probably should, since I went from a lifting program to this and hurt myself by trying to keep up. That's really all I can suggest man. Wish I could be more helpful or make SS more exciting in the gym.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN
Well, SS says that you're a newbie until you can Squat 1.5x BW and DL 2x BW.

Uh, where did you read that? Starting Strength is a program that works well for beginners because beginners, by definition, can add weight to their major lifts just about every workout. It's when you are totally stalled on most of your major lifts (especially the squat) that you are no longer a beginner and therefore should move on from Starting Strength. This might happen when you squat 1.5x BW, but it might also happen when you squat 1.0x BW or 2.0x BW or any other value. To determine if you are no longer able to make linear gains, you should go through the following type of progression:

1. On some exercise, you've reached some weight X for which you could not complete the 3x5 during a workout.
2. You've re-tried weight X on ~3 consecutive workouts and still could not complete a 3x5.
3. You did a soft deload, dropping the weight down by ~10% and working your way back up over the next few weeks. When you got back up to (approximately) weight X, you got stuck once again and for a few consecutive workouts could not complete the 3x5.
4. You did a hard deload, dropping the weight down by ~20% and working your way back up over the next few weeks. Once more, when you got back up to approximately weight X, you were unable do complete the 3x5.

If you've actually gone through the above process on the major lifts, especially the squat, then you can no longer make linear gains and are therefore not a "beginner". You can try to move onto an intermediate routine, such as Bill Starr 5x5 or The Texas Method.

However, an important warning: if you haven't gone through the process above - that is, if you haven't exhausted your body's ability to make linear gains - then any intermediate program will most likely be less efficient than Starting Strength. In other words, it's not that an intermediate program won't work for a beginner, it just won't work as fast as a beginner program will. The opposite is also true: a beginner program will work for an intermediate, but not very efficiently.


EDIT ---> Forgot to mention two things:

1. I don't know your height, but 150lbs is fairly light for an average guy. I don't know what your goals are, so perhaps adding weight is not an option, but I would bet that if you bulk up a bit and add some muscle mass, you'd still be able to (easily) make linear gains with SS. One option is SS + GOMAD (Starting Strength + Gallon of Milk A Day), which is notorious for producing MASSIVE gains in strength and mass.

2. If you want to move on from SS just because you're bored with the same routine every day, SociallyChallenged's suggestion of Crossfit is a good one. Crossfit is designed to improve not just strength, but just about every aspect of fitness: cardiovascular/respiratory endurance, stamina, strength, flexibility, power, speed, agility, balance, coordination, and accuracy. To do this, the workouts are constantly varied and include power lifting, olympic lifting, running, rowing, gymnastics, plyometrics and more. It won't build strength as quickly as a strength-specific routine like SS, but you definitely will get stronger, and at the same time, you'll improve all your other fitness abilities as well.

 

[BeauJangles]

What are your goals?

 

[MegaVovaN]

I am 6'0 ft tall and have low body fat percent. Looks wise, my goal is to add about 1 pound of lean muscle a month. I want to reach 175 lb with low bf% in about 2 years. I don't want to go with gallon of milk, since that would be unnecessarily high strain on my kidneys with insane amount of protein, and milk will add fat.

Exercise wise, I would like more strength on major lifts while retaining my cardio shape (being able to bike for 2 hours, run 5+ miles, and sprint short distances).

I know 150 lb is light, and everyone keeps saying ZOMG U NEED AT LEAST 200 LBS LOLZ, but I don't want to carry useless mass. I need every pound to be worth carrying.

edit: since spring, i estimate about 8 months of lifting, so I went average 1 lb a month (142 lb --> 150)

 

[crt1530]

You are way too advanced for me to offer you any advice.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN
I am 6'0 ft tall and have low body fat percent. Looks wise, my goal is to add about 1 pound of lean muscle a month. I want to reach 175 lb with low bf% in about 2 years. I don't want to go with gallon of milk, since that would be unnecessarily high strain on my kidneys with insane amount of protein, and milk will add fat.

Exercise wise, I would like more strength on major lifts while retaining my cardio shape (being able to bike for 2 hours, run 5+ miles, and sprint short distances).

I know 150 lb is light, and everyone keeps saying ZOMG U NEED AT LEAST 200 LBS LOLZ, but I don't want to carry useless mass. I need every pound to be worth carrying.

edit: since spring, i estimate about 8 months of lifting, so I went average 1 lb a month (142 lb --> 150)

You can do a slow bulk and gain more than 1 pound of lean muscle per month so I don't know where you got that idea. Just because you've only gained 8 pounds now doesn't mean you can't progress faster than you have in the past. Milk would probably help you and WTF did "milk will add fat" come from? Your kidneys are fine and you don't have to drink a GOMAD if you don't want to. It's a great, healthy source for calories and will probably make your life easier if you wanted to up the calories per day.

I have no idea why the severe ecto's have problems with gaining ANY fat. It's a trend I'm realizing. You could reach your goals probably more than a year early if you got over that.

 

[brikis98]

MegaVovaN: the way I see it, you have a finite amount of time to exercise & diet. Therefore, it is in your best interests to find the most optimal routine you can to help you achieve you goals as fast as possible. With that in mind, lets go through each of your goals as I understand them:

Increase strength
As explained in my first reply, you should do whatever strength training routine fits your current level of training. If you're still at a beginner stage - that is, able to make linear gains from workout to workout - continue with Starting Strength. If linear gains are no longer possible and you're at an intermediate stage, give Bill Starr 5x5 or The Texas Method a shot.

Increase muscle mass
Your current approach is typically called a "slow bulk" - that is, you are presumably using a relatively small caloric deficit to very gradually add muscle to your body with minimal gains in fat. This is a decent approach, but it's called a slow bulk for a reason - it is really, really bloody slow.

I would bet that you could get to your desired weight of 175lbs much faster by alternating bulking and cutting phases. The bulking phases would use a larger caloric surplus than your current slow bulk. This would let you add muscle mass much faster than you are now, which would give you the added benefit of increasing your strength dramatically. The trade off is that you'll probably add more fat as well, but given your genetics - 6'0", 150lbs is pretty damn thin - I'd bet the amount of fat would be minimal. Moreover, you'd mix in some cutting cycles and burn the extra fat away in a pretty damn short period of time. In the end, you'd be at the exact same weight and bf% as with the slow bulk, but you'd get there faster. Moreover, you'd probably end up stronger too.

As a *very* rough example of how bulk/cut cycles could be faster than a slow bulk, lets consider some hypothetical numbers:

Bulking cycle: 2 months, gain 6lbs muscle, 3lbs fat
Cutting cycle: 1 month, lose 3lbs fat, 1lbs muscle

These are pretty reasonable numbers, but the result should be clear: in 3 months, you have a net gain of 5lbs of muscle and 0lbs of fat. This compares quite favorably to the 3lbs of muscle you would have gained over the same time period from a slow bulk. If you repeat these bulk/cut cycles, you'd get to your 175lbs goal in 15 months rather than 25. Now, I'm well aware I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air, and yes, they'll vary with each person's genetics, diet, training intensity, etc. However, these numbers are still useful to illustrate why most people - including just about every professional athlete who's bodyweight matters, such as bodybuilders, wrestlers, boxers, etc - do bulking/cutting cycles instead of slow bulks. I'm sure your numbers will vary from the above, but it's still likely that on the whole, the bulk/cut cycles will workout faster.

Maintain cardio performance
This is purely a matter of practice. If you keep doing your running/biking/sprinting regularly, you shouldn't have any issues maintaining your performance. The extra couple pounds of fat you'll put on during a bulk won't make any real difference and you'll burn that fat away frequently enough during the cut cycles to eliminate it as a factor altogether.

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN
I don't want to go with gallon of milk, since that would be unnecessarily high strain on my kidneys with insane amount of protein, and milk will add fat.

Unless you have an existing kidney condition, your kidneys will adapt to the extra protein without any issues. And no, milk does not have any inherent properties that would make it "add fat". Weight gain is overwhelmingly a factor of calories in vs. calories out, and whether those calories come from milk or another source is not terribly important. However, GOMAD is often recommended for the same reasons as SS: (a) milk is cheap and easy to obtain, (b) the plan simple to follow, and (c) it's damn effective.

 

[conorvansmack]

You could try StrongLifts 5 x 5 Advanced. It's based on Bill Starr 5 x 5.

 

[MegaVovaN]

Brikis,

Thank you for a detailed post. I have long had (and still have) trouble of eating enough calories. For a start, I'll now take 0.5 gallon bottles of chocolate milk to school/work (I spend 10+ hours a day on campus!) and drink that instead of tea that I usually drink (black tea has no calories...and couple bites of sweets I take with it amount to probably very low amount of calories).

My work/school has fridge, freezer, microwaves, drinkable tap water and boiled water. I can take off as much time as I want for "lunch" breaks.


edit: as for which program to follow, I will look at variants offered in this thread and decide. But it probably won't be Crossfit - I want a program similar to SS.

 

[sash1]

Max-OT

Originally posted by: crt1530
You are way too advanced for me to offer you any advice.

:laugh:

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN
Thank you for a detailed post. I have long had (and still have) trouble of eating enough calories. For a start, I'll now take 0.5 gallon bottles of chocolate milk to school/work (I spend 10+ hours a day on campus!) and drink that instead of tea that I usually drink (black tea has no calories...and couple bites of sweets I take with it amount to probably very low amount of calories).

No problem. Many people, especially those that tend towards the thinner side, have trouble getting enough calories either because they never feel hungry or because they don't take the time to eat. In either case, this is where GOMAD is ideal: milk is relatively cheap and easy to obtain, there is no "preparation" necessary, and for many people, drinking a glass of liquid when you're not hungry is easier than eating solid food.

It's probably a good idea for you to be tracking your calories so you can be sure you have an appropriate caloric surplus. If the surplus ends up *way* too big because of the additional milk, you may gain too much fat. If it's too little because you compensate for the additional milk by eating less of other food, you'd still be doing a slow bulk. Finding the right balance is tricky and simply takes practice: go through some bulk/cut cycles, approximate how much muscle & fat you put on, and tweak accordingly from there.

Anyways, it looks like you've got a good start with it, so good luck!

 

[KoolDrew]

I would be doing everything I could to gain mass. Being afraid of gaining a little fat isn't going to get you anywhere. It's part of bulking. I wouldn't suggest becoming a total fat ass in the process, but a little bit is going to happen and there's no way around it. I would suggest aiming for about 4 pounds gained a month (1 pound a week). Out of those 4 pounds, 2 should be muscle if you're lucky. I suggest setting a cut-off point for bulking and cutting. For example, 10-15%. Once you reach 15% bodyfat, start cutting back down to 10% and continue alternating between the two until you reach your goal. Ensuring to gain muscle mass during the bulk, and not losing it during the cut.

To help with getting enough calories I would suggest tracking what you eat as well, that way you know around how many calories you are actually consuming.

edit: as for which program to follow, I will look at variants offered in this thread and decide. But it probably won't be Crossfit - I want a program similar to SS.

Has progress actually stopped using SS or do you just want to move on because you met some arbitrary number?

 

[MegaVovaN]

Drew, I suspect progress stopped because I don't have enough muscle mass. I am going to add mass --> add strength --> continue progress.

Time to buy me some food scales and a couple BF calipers

 

[MegaVovaN]

Update Feb 01 2009
Alright, I was lifting pretty light (185 squats x4 sets, 95 ohp, 215 dlx3 sets, 145 bench) for a few weeks deciding what to do next. Decided on Bill Starr 5x5.
Made 2 substitutions:
1. Replaced incline bench with Overhead Press (regular, not military)
2. replaced bent over barbell rows with bent over Dumbbell rows.

Are these changes okay?
I downloaded worksheet and put my numbers in - will buy fractional plates ( http://www.amazon.com/APT-Weig...&qid=1233543244&sr=8-1 ) to adjust weight accurately. With DB rows I'll just round up or down....

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I think it's alright to mix it up, but I still don't think you need to get on the Bill Starr 5x5. As your get the weight up, the extra 2 sets really aren't gonna do you much good. In fact, as you get heavier, it's going to potentially slow your progress on the weights. There's an explanation here. I agree that the explanation is not the best, but I agree with the logic. I think you're gonna be doing the same thing, except slowing your progress.

 

[MegaVovaN]

Hmm, might give SS another shot with these fractional plates...how far back should I reset?
I want to do power cleans instead of rows but not going to until I fork over money to someone who would teach me to do them properly.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN
Hmm, might give SS another shot with these fractional plates...how far back should I reset?
I want to do power cleans instead of rows but not going to until I fork over money to someone who would teach me to do them properly.

I don't know your body so I can't really say how far back you should go, if at all. You don't have to pay to learn how to do power cleans. Know your body, record some videos, watch a TON of videos and practice with a fairly light weight. People can maintain fairly good form if they invest the time in the research.

Also, why are you buying fractional plates? Did you actually stall or did you just get sick of doing the same exercises each time at the gym? I clearly don't know your body or how your CNS adapts, so take this with a grain of salt, but I would really try to keep away from enabling myself from increasing small increments of weight. If you're stalling or plateauing, that's fine. Make sure you continue to eat so as to continue to build muscle, which will obviously help with increasing the weights you're lifting. I'm saying this because I know some people who thought they were stalling when, in actuality, they were just getting uncertain about the weight/or were maintaining low intensity levels while training. Just make sure you're not doing that, man.

Also, I'll reiterate what was said: if you really wanna continue lifting more weight, stop worrying about the fat. Your progress will be quicker and you can maintain your aesthetics as you see fit with cut/bulk cycles.

 

[MegaVovaN]

Heh, I am not worried about the fat now.
I am going fractional because I fail the lifts! For example I was doing squats at 205 lb few weeks back and could not complete all reps in all sets. 200 lb was fine.

Power cleans...some day I'll learn these.

BTW - thanks for that link to SS wiki, lots of good info there.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN
Heh, I am not worried about the fat now.
I am going fractional because I fail the lifts! For example I was doing squats at 205 lb few weeks back and could not complete all reps in all sets. 200 lb was fine.

Power cleans...some day I'll learn these.

BTW - thanks for that link to SS wiki, lots of good info there.

I gotcha. Plateauing is something I'm not quite as experienced with as I'd like to be. I may have to read a book about the mechanisms and such so I can be a bit more helpful. I haven't actually plateaued while lifting yet and I can push my body to do some pretty challenging things due to a really good CNS.

Power cleans... learn them tomorrow. Start watching videos now.

No worries about the link. I haven't really looked around too much on that website, but it does seem to have some interesting stuff. Oh, glad you're not caught up on the fat gain anymore. I think getting your weight up first is most beneficial.

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Plateauing is something I'm not quite as experienced with as I'd like to be.

Anyone who claims to be as experienced as they'd like with breaking through a plateau is lying.

That said, I've had some success with muscle confusion: that is, using different exercises and doing my exercises differently. You can do negative reps, forced reps, accessory exercises, change the number of reps per set (doing a ton more reps with a much lighter weight can help quite a bit, as can doing fewer reps with more weight), reduce rest between sets, change to related exercises temporarily (ie, decline or incline bench instead of flat bench). Unloads are one way to achieve muscle confusion (because you'll perform the movement differently, even if you use the same form: different muscle fibers will fire at different times).