I've come to a realization regarding this board re: the mideast

[ThePresence]

It's that most of you people (not all, but most) have no clue what you're talking about. It's very easy to sit in comfort in and cast judgement about a conflict on the other side of the world that you think you understand. I have lived there and I served in the military there and I can say that most of you do not begin to understand the mindset of the region. I know all the Israel haters will come in here and say I'm only saying this because of the tragedy that happened, and this is how I justify Israeli so-called 'war crimes', I'm just another Israeli apologist, blah, blah, blah. Okay, feel free to say and think what you want. But I can tell you from my heart that it's not true at all. I think the bombing that happened is a real human tragedy. I also think that people are complete idiots if they think Israel did this intentionally. They have absolutely no reason to kill civillians. It doesn't help their cause whatsoever. Since when do those bent on killing civillians first warn them to leave the area multiple times? It's insanity. I wonder sometimes how many of you really believe it's a tragedy when Israeli civillians are killed, and how much of it is lip service. Civillians die in war, it's the nature of the beast. I blame those responsible for attacking Israel for bringing war to their people.

A few points:

The current Israeli government is (might be WAS by now) interested in withdrawing from most of the West Bank. Last year Israel pulled out of Gaza in a painful gesture for peace. Not a day of peace followed. All it did was pull more Israeli civillians into range of Palestinian rockets. Tell me, are those the actions of a people interested in peace? Or does it make more sense to assume that they really just want the destruction of Israel?

Israel pulled out of Lebanon six years ago. Did peace follow? No, it didn't. Hezbollah has constantly attacked Israel for no reason at all. The restraint Israel has shown over these last six years has finally boiled over in this completely unprovoked attack against soldiers patrolling within Israel territory. How any of you believe that the Israeli response is unjustified is beyond me. I wonder what you would want the US to do if Mexico shot rockets at US towns every now and then for six years and then ambushed a patrol of US soldiers?

One more thing. You cannot win a conflict by fighting nicely. It makes it much harder and puts many more troops in danger. Yet, Israel is trying. It warned civillians multiple times to stay away from areas Hezbollah is operating from. It warned civillians multiple times to move north. There is no more they can do. They are fighting a group who operates from areas that civillians hide in. They have to hit back. Do you think Hezbollah is saddened by the civillian deaths in Lebanon? BS! This tragedy is a huge victory for Hezbollah. They are beside themselves with glee. Their plan worked, Israel killed civillians while trying to hit them! Now world opinion will turn against Israel. Their goal has been accomplished. Congratulations for playing right into their hands.

 

[TheSlamma]

:thumbsup:


The people who would oppose your post honestly think that all humans can just lay down their guns and sing kumbaya.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
One more thing. You cannot win a conflict by fighting nicely. It makes it much harder and puts many more troops in danger. Yet, Israel is trying. It warned civillians multiple times to stay away from areas Hezbollah is operating from. It warned civillians multiple times to move north. There is no more they can do. They are fighting a group who operates from areas that civillians hide in. They have to hit back. Do you think Hezbollah is saddened by the civillian deaths in Lebanon? BS! This tragedy is a huge victory for Hezbollah. They are beside themselves with glee. Their plan worked, Israel killed civillians while trying to hit them! Now world opinion will turn against Israel. Their goal has been accomplished. Congratulations for playing right into their hands.

Exactly. It's not like Israel bombed the roads and borders leading out of southern Lebanon so civilians wouldn't be able to leave...errr...wait a second, they did.

At the end of the day, they are all equal in my eyes. Israelis, Palestinians, IDF, Hezbollah/Hamas...they're fighting for the same land, they both hate each other, they both have used repulsive levels of violence against each other (nevermind the civilian deaths caused by Israel are usually much much higher).

You can defend or oppose either side of the conflict with equal moral ambiguity, so don't think of yourself as taking the high ground.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
:thumbsup:


The people who would oppose your post honestly think that all humans can just lay down their guns and sing kumbaya.

Or they are apologists for Hezbollah and Islam as a whole.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: ThePresence
One more thing. You cannot win a conflict by fighting nicely. It makes it much harder and puts many more troops in danger. Yet, Israel is trying. It warned civillians multiple times to stay away from areas Hezbollah is operating from. It warned civillians multiple times to move north. There is no more they can do. They are fighting a group who operates from areas that civillians hide in. They have to hit back. Do you think Hezbollah is saddened by the civillian deaths in Lebanon? BS! This tragedy is a huge victory for Hezbollah. They are beside themselves with glee. Their plan worked, Israel killed civillians while trying to hit them! Now world opinion will turn against Israel. Their goal has been accomplished. Congratulations for playing right into their hands.

Exactly. It's not like Israel bombed the roads and borders leading out of southern Lebanon so civilians wouldn't be able to leave...errr...wait a second, they did.

That's incorrect, they didn't. They bombed the roads into southern Lebanon so that Hezbollah could not bring in more loads of weapons, and to impair their ability to manuever their troops. Yes, it hampers civillians too. Such is war. But are you seriously implying that Israel intentionally wanted the civillians to stay there after warning them to leave, bombing the roads so they could not get out, in order to kill them?

 

[BrownTown]

:thumbsup:

Actually I disagree with some of what you say, but I'm glad I'm not the only one around here who is annoyed by the childish way most people comment on this war. However, I think its dangerous to try to label one side as being right, and one said as wrong. So far as I See it, people are pretty much the same whether they live in Isreal, US, Lebanon, China, wherever. If you think that the people who don't like you have this belief simply becasue they are bloodthirsty, or completely immoral then you are wrong. This continuing conflict is very hard on those in these affected areas, and the fact is that many people have lost so much that they can no longer accept peace, and what they want now is revenge. These people need to be done away with, but only if it can be done in a way that more such people are not created. If in order to stop these people you are also restricting the freesoms of others, killing innocent civilians (of coruse its an accident, but tell that to a dad watching his family die before him, maybe he will just want to "accidentally" kill you too) its not worth it. This current conflict will likely create as many new "terrorists" as it destroys. The best way to fix the problem is to try to rebuild these areas, to help these people out. I know it sounds counterintuitive to help the country where the people are that want to kill you, but the fact is thats what needs to be done. Maybe if instead of the US sending Isreal 2Billion dollars worth of weapons they isntead built new roads, bridges, power plants in Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank. Then these people would have jobs, and the needed infrastructure for a real economy. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't all want to kill us. OF coruse the die hards are still gonna be there, and its too late for them to ever be convinced that Isreal and the US are not the devil, but eventually the rest of the people will no longer support and shelter these people and they can be "disposed" of in a way that doesnt involve killing civilians.

Basically I guess my point is that people wil be alot less likely to kill others, and alot less willing to die if they actually feel like they have something worth living for. Just look what happened after WWII, the US spent alot of money in Germany and Japan building up their economies, and now they are our allies, and in fact both our economies were helped by the endevour. I know its easy for me to say that as someone who has been blessed not to have to live threw such things, and can simply turn off the TV when they get tired of watching it, but I still think that this constant limited fighting will NEVER end unless something drastic changes. I just hope it will be the US and/or Europe deciding once and for all to end this and not a full scale war which could well go nuclear.

EDIT: also, the next time I here the word "apologist" I am gonna go completely bat-****** insane. How come everytime someone disagrees with another person on this forum they are attacked personally. Just cause someone disagrees with you does not mean that they are stupid/12-yrs old/a nazi/paid off by an oil company /hippie /fasist /communist /anti-semetic /anti-American /French /etc..

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
:thumbsup:


The people who would oppose your post honestly think that all humans can just lay down their guns and sing kumbaya.

Or they are apologists for Hezbollah and Islam as a whole.

Yes they must be them thar terrarist lubbers cuz they dun luv dem Jews! :roll:

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
:thumbsup:

Actually I disagree with some of what you say, but I'm glad I'm not the only one around here who is annoyed by the childish way most people comment on this war. However, I think its dangerous to try to label one side as being right, and one said as wrong. So far as I See it, people are pretty much the same whether they live in Isreal, US, Lebanon, China, wherever. If you think that the people who don't like you have this belief simply becasue they are bloodthirsty, or completely immoral then you are wrong. This continuing conflict is very hard on those in these affected areas, and the fact is that many people have lost so much that they can no longer accept peace, and what they want now is revenge. These people need to be done away with, but only if it can be done in a way that more such people are not created. If in order to stop these people you are also restricting the freesoms of others, killing innocent civilians (of coruse its an accident, but tell that to a dad watching his family die before him, maybe he will just want to "accidentally" kill you too) its not worth it. This current conflict will likely create as many new "terrorists" as it destroys. The best way to fix the problem is to try to rebuild these areas, to help these people out. I know it sounds counterintuitive to help the country where the people are that want to kill you, but the fact is thats what needs to be done. Maybe if instead of the US sending Isreal 2Billion dollars worth of weapons they isntead built new roads, bridges, power plants in Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank. Then these people would have jobs, and the needed infrastructure for a real economy. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't all want to kill us. OF coruse the die hards are still gonna be there, and its too late for them to ever be convinced that Isreal and the US are not the devil, but eventually the rest of the people will no longer support and shelter these people and they can be "disposed" of in a way that doesnt involve killing civilians.

Basically I guess my point is that people wil be alot less likely to kill others, and alot less willing to die if they actually feel like they have something worth living for. Just look what happened after WWII, the US spent alot of money in Germany and Japan building up their economies, and now they are our allies, and in fact both our economies were helped by the endevour. I know its easy for me to say that as someone who has been blessed not to have to live threw such things, and can simply turn off the TV when they get tired of watching it, but I still think that this constant limited fighting will NEVER end unless something drastic changes. I just hope it will be the US and/or Europe deciding once and for all to end this and not a full scale war which could well go nuclear.

EDIT: also, the next time I here the word "apologist" I am gonna go completely bat-****** insane. How come everytime someone disagrees with another person on this forum they are attacked personally. Just cause someone disagrees with you does not mean that they are stupid/12-yrs old/a nazi/paid off by an oil company /hippie /fasist /communist /anti-semetic /anti-American /French /etc..

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, that's what intelligent conversation is all about.

I agree with you that this current conflict will likely create more terrorists in the long run. It's always been that way. As I said in another thread, if I was in that situation and a bomb killed my entire family, I would want to strike back at those that killed them regardless of their intent. But Israel does not have another option. They cannot sit back and let their soldiers and citizens be killed. Not a country in the world would stand for that. They have to strike back. And it will create more hatred. But there is no alternative. It's sad and scary, but it's the reality.

 

[Moonbeam]

I hear from Israelis that Israel is right and from the Palestinians that they are right and so on. I am not sure how both can be right but maybe.........

 

[daniel49]

Presence: how many times have I warned you about using blatent logic like that on this forum.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
:thumbsup:


The people who would oppose your post honestly think that all humans can just lay down their guns and sing kumbaya.

Or they are apologists for Hezbollah and Islam as a whole.

Yes they must be them thar terrarist lubbers cuz they dun luv dem Jews! :roll:

No, you retard.

Muslims in general will generally defend the actions of others of their faith, or attack those who criticise it. Case in point: I work with a Muslim who in just about every respect is a great guy, until one time we discussed the 9/11 incident. He started going off on some tangent about how Israel was responsible for it...

 

[piasabird]

Any country that allows anyone inside its borders to start firing rockets into a neighboring country should expect their neighboring country to start shooting back. Anyone that can not understand this simple concept is a bit lacking in brains.

The Lebanese allowed much of what the Hezbolah did on their soil. Now they have to pay dearly for not kicking them out. When Isreal left Lebanon years ago there was a UN Declartion saying the Hezbolah must disarm, but the UN Never made hezbolah disarm. The UN is the main party to blame in all of this. This is a disaster that the UN caused all by itself.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Any country that allows anyone inside its borders to start firing rockets into a neighboring country should expect their neighboring country to start shooting back. Anyone that can not understand this simple concept is a bit lacking in brains.

The Lebanese allowed much of what the Hezbolah did on their soil. Now they have to pay dearly for not kicking them out. When Isreal left Lebanon years ago there was a UN Declartion saying the Hezbolah must disarm, but the UN Never made hezbolah disarm. The UN is the main party to blame in all of this. This is a disaster that the UN caused all by itself.

But what about the folks that were supposed to disarm and didn't. Aren't they at fault. And why didn't they disarm. Maybe they had good reasons not to. Who is at fault depends on how you look at it and it's always the other guy.

 

[Witling]

ThePresence. "Not another country would stand for that [their soldiers being killed]." The U.S. did when the Israelis sank a U.S. ship. 1967, I think. Just one of those "accidents." In your earlier post you mention withdrawal from various areas and "did it bring peace?" No neglect mentioning the withdrawal from the Saniai (spelling?) which caused Israeli rioting but apparently purchased peace with Israel. The second thing that bothers me about this withdrawal from territory argument is that it only takes a very small group to launch rockets. Collective punishment follows. You also say, "Israel didn't have any choice." Of course they had a choice. See sentence # 1.

 

[Zebo]

There is no substitute for detailed knowledge of the region. Easy allusion, underdog worship, assumptions just won't do it. I used to support the "Palestinian cause" until I actually learned as much as possible about the region and did a 180. One side has been conducting a Jihad against the other for 1400 years. There will never be peace nor do they want peace in any way you are familiar with....

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Any country that allows anyone inside its borders to start firing rockets into a neighboring country should expect their neighboring country to start shooting back. Anyone that can not understand this simple concept is a bit lacking in brains.

The Lebanese allowed much of what the Hezbolah did on their soil. Now they have to pay dearly for not kicking them out. When Isreal left Lebanon years ago there was a UN Declartion saying the Hezbolah must disarm, but the UN Never made hezbolah disarm. The UN is the main party to blame in all of this. This is a disaster that the UN caused all by itself.

You speak as though the Lebanese government was actually powerful enough to do anything.

Here's a little international politics 101: just because a government is in place that doesn't mean they have any power over the rest of the country.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Witling
ThePresence. "Not another country would stand for that [their soldiers being killed]." The U.S. did when the Israelis sank a U.S. ship. 1967, I think. Just one of those "accidents." In your earlier post you mention withdrawal from various areas and "did it bring peace?" No neglect mentioning the withdrawal from the Saniai (spelling?) which caused Israeli rioting but apparently purchased peace with Israel. The second thing that bothers me about this withdrawal from territory argument is that it only takes a very small group to launch rockets. Collective punishment follows. You also say, "Israel didn't have any choice." Of course they had a choice. See sentence # 1.

A popular belief that Israel should just lay down and die. Of course it doesn?t HAVE to survive. What a silly choice of them to make.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
:thumbsup:


The people who would oppose your post honestly think that all humans can just lay down their guns and sing kumbaya.

Or they are apologists for Hezbollah and Islam as a whole.

Yes they must be them thar terrarist lubbers cuz they dun luv dem Jews! :roll:

Idiot, your opinion was negated you opened your stupid mouth in another thread saying we "don't need some Jew in office." You may as well leave this forum now, you have no use here.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Witling
ThePresence. "Not another country would stand for that [their soldiers being killed]." The U.S. did when the Israelis sank a U.S. ship. 1967, I think. Just one of those "accidents." In your earlier post you mention withdrawal from various areas and "did it bring peace?" No neglect mentioning the withdrawal from the Saniai (spelling?) which caused Israeli rioting but apparently purchased peace with Israel. The second thing that bothers me about this withdrawal from territory argument is that it only takes a very small group to launch rockets. Collective punishment follows. You also say, "Israel didn't have any choice." Of course they had a choice. See sentence # 1.

A popular belief that Israel should just lay down and die. Of course it doesn?t HAVE to survive. What a silly choice of them to make.

Actually that is what those who would lay the blame at the feet of Israel totally believe.
They believe that if Israel had turned there backs on those 2 soldeirs who were kidnapped and wrote them off as casualities of war all these innocent civilians would not have been killed.

Also there are those who support the Hezbollah cause who would love for those in Israel to lay down there weapons.

Then there are those who with every fibre of their being are truly pacifists.
Those people believe that both sides need to disarm and pursue a means of peace via negotiations and diplomacy. Which by the way has never happened.
Yet people still believe it to be a truly viable alternative.

One question those who advocate peace can never explain is something I heard an Israeli diplomat say one time when asked about disarming and laying doen there arms in the interest of peace -- If all the countries in the middle east were to disarm and recognize Israels right to exist as a nation there would be nomore wars.
But as a nation if we were to be the first to lay down our weapons and disarm there would be no nation Israel in 1-3 years.....

I truly agree with the OP of this thread when he states - "It's that most of you people (not all, but most) have no clue what you're talking about. It's very easy to sit in comfort in and cast judgement about a conflict on the other side of the world that you think you understand."

But I would add its just as easy from the comfort of your own home to sit and ask another nation to disarm as long as its not the nation you are living in!!

 

[fitzov]

It's that most of you people (not all, but most) have no clue what you're talking about

So, I take it that whoever disagrees with you on the issue has "no clue" what he's talking about? That's not a very good opener for serious dialogue.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
It's very easy to sit in comfort in and cast judgement about a conflict on the other side of the world that you think you understand."

Especially if you don't have to worry about a bomb being dropped on you and your family.

 

[RightIsWrong]

I, personally, think that the conflicts in the ME or most other areas of the world could end if people would just break free from religion. As it is now, you have two or three different groups claiming that land is theirs because it is "holy" to them and it is being occupied or controlled by another blasphemous group.

Take religion out of the equation and you would achieve peace within a generation or two at most. There is no such thing as a holy land. There are only righteous people that all deserve to live in a world without conflict. Alas, the religions of peace will never allow that to happen.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
It's that most of you people (not all, but most) have no clue what you're talking about.

It's very easy to sit in comfort in and cast judgement about a conflict on the other side of the world that you think you understand.

I have lived there and I served in the military there and I can say that most of you do not begin to understand the mindset of the region.

I never said I understand any of it.

What I do understand is that we have no business being there.

If Countries want to launch missles at another or sends in it's whole population with bombs on their backs, let them. It's all population control. Leave the weeding out process be.

 

[Lazy8s]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: piasabird
Any country that allows anyone inside its borders to start firing rockets into a neighboring country should expect their neighboring country to start shooting back. Anyone that can not understand this simple concept is a bit lacking in brains.

The Lebanese allowed much of what the Hezbolah did on their soil. Now they have to pay dearly for not kicking them out. When Isreal left Lebanon years ago there was a UN Declartion saying the Hezbolah must disarm, but the UN Never made hezbolah disarm. The UN is the main party to blame in all of this. This is a disaster that the UN caused all by itself.

You speak as though the Lebanese government was actually powerful enough to do anything.

Here's a little international politics 101: just because a government is in place that doesn't mean they have any power over the rest of the country.

So a great solution would be to go for years KNOWING what's going on KNOWING they can't and aren't stopping it and never ask for help, right?

If they had said "We are trying to make a democracy here, we do not have the power to force this terrorist organization out of our country, please help us." I SERIOUSLY doubt no one would have listened. It's like watching a massive lump grow on the side of your head then suing the doctor because you had permenant damage done when the tumor was removed because it was too big to remove safely.

@OP: I agree. It seems like everyone missed the IDF footage of rockets being fired out of the town the same day at Israel. Perhaps if civilians didn't stay in a town where they KNEW rockets were being fired from there would be no problem.

Let me state my opinion loud and clear so there's no doubt: If you stay in a town where rockets are being fired into a neighbouring country you have lost the right to complain if you get killed. I don't care if the roads were bombed or not. If the guy next to me was taking pot shots at canada I would walk my happy arse to the next closest city. It sucks civies got killed but honestly, sh!t happens. I hope the rest of the Lebanese people learn to GTFO like the Israelis have. Hezbollah has been intentionally targeting civilians in Israel and very few have died, why? Because they knew when it was time to pack their sh!t and get out of town.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Witling
ThePresence. "Not another country would stand for that [their soldiers being killed]." The U.S. did when the Israelis sank a U.S. ship. 1967, I think. Just one of those "accidents." In your earlier post you mention withdrawal from various areas and "did it bring peace?" No neglect mentioning the withdrawal from the Saniai (spelling?) which caused Israeli rioting but apparently purchased peace with Israel. The second thing that bothers me about this withdrawal from territory argument is that it only takes a very small group to launch rockets. Collective punishment follows. You also say, "Israel didn't have any choice." Of course they had a choice. See sentence # 1.

Congratulations... you have just proved ThePresence's point... and the sad reality is you probably don't even realize how...