It's Palestinians who have the right to defend themselves

[silverpig]

You are cherry picking parts of the article




Israeli unilaterally withdrew from Gaza 18 months before Hamas was elected. Even before that the previous leadership couldn't be considered secular in the Western sense of the word.

Well yeah. I was highlighting the parts where he almost gets killed by Israelis.

Also, he says in the article that Gaza was secular.

These supposed ‘friends of Israel’ are in practice friends of Islamic fundamentalism, he believes. “Why do they have to give the fundamentalists more excuses, more fury, more opportunities, more recruits? Look at Gaza. Gaza was totally secular not long ago. Now you can hardly get alcohol today in Gaza, after all the brutality. Religious fundamentalism is always the language people turn to in despair, if everything else fails. If Gaza had been a free society it would not have become like this. We gave them recruits.”

People turn to religion in times of need. They turn to radical extremism in times of prolonged extreme hardship. Radical extremism leads to violence.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

People turn to religion in times of need. They turn to radical extremism in times of prolonged extreme hardship. Radical extremism leads to violence.

That is often true but I think you are jumping to conclusions for a few reasons:

1. People are too generous using the word secular in reference to Muslim countries. I visited Egypt when Mubarak was still in charge and it was nominally secular but the Islamic influence was readily apparent, especially in the way women were treated.

2. Even if we accept the hypothesis that the poor conditions in Gaza (which by the way are about the same as in other oil-less Muslim countries), that still leaves the implicit assumption that Israel bears 100% of the responsibility for creating those poor conditions.

I would argue that that in fact the majority of the blame lies with the Palestinian leadership, the Palestinian people, and other Arab / Muslim leaders that have the used the Palestinians as pawns over the years.

Israel has made several good faith attempts to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians so I'm not sure what else you expect them to do.

 

[Whiskey16]

Israel has made several good faith attempts to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians so I'm not sure what else you expect them to do.

Most certainly not.

Occupying, colonising, and committing to an active and aggressive high crime of annexing external territory is most certainly the OPPOSITE of good will or attempts to attain peace.

The state of Israel does not desire a politically united Palestine as this impedes Israeli expansion. Since its inception, Hamas serves Israel's strategic and aggressive policy. Gaza gas been isolated by Israel, and every four years or so it is beneficial to Israel to reaffirm the local stature of Hamas in an armed struggle.

The state of Israel does not desire a peaceful atmosphere as this would negate the excuse for a constant occupational war footing and the faux scenario of the need for security expansion due to its own strategic implementation of insecurity.

Israeli aggressive displacement of Palestinians and Zionist colonisation of the West Bank are the prime strategic goals of Israel's destabilising foreign policy. The underlying intention is to expand. "We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country.

This is hardly the stuff of conspiracy theories, but that of pragmatic analyses and the continuing records of Israel's acts on the ground.

As such, Palestinians have a right to defensively react, and upon achieving at least status as a non-member state at the UN, sign the Rome Statute, and thereby have a route to bring charges against Israel at an international court such as the ICC.

So, the DRIZZLE, how dare you declare Israel is attempting peace? Israel is in control and implementing policies and actions that are the prime obstacles to peace.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Most certainly not.

Occupying, colonising, and committing to an active and aggressive high crime of annexing external territory is most certainly the OPPOSITE of good will or attempts to attain peace.

The state of Israel does not desire a politically united Palestine as this impedes Israeli expansion. Since its inception, Hamas serves Israel's strategic and aggressive policy. Gaza gas been isolated by Israel, and every four years or so it is beneficial to Israel to reaffirm the local stature of Hamas in an armed struggle.

The state of Israel does not desire a peaceful atmosphere as this would negate the excuse for a constant occupational war footing and the faux scenario of the need for security expansion due to its own strategic implementation of insecurity.

Israeli aggressive displacement of Palestinians and Zionist colonisation of the West Bank are the prime strategic goals of Israel's destabilising foreign policy. The underlying intention is to expand. "We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country.

This is hardly the stuff of conspiracy theories, but that of pragmatic analyses and the continuing records of Israel's acts on the ground.

As such, Palestinians have a right to defensively react, and upon achieving at least status as a non-member state at the UN, sign the Rome Statute, and thereby have a route to bring charges against Israel at an international court such as the ICC.

So, the DRIZZLE, how dare you declare Israel is attempting peace? Israel is in control and implementing policies and actions that are the prime obstacles to peace.

I declare it because it's well documented.

1. Israel agreed to the Oslo accords and offered the Palestinians 99% of what they wanted at Camp David in 2000. Several Clinton cabinet members have put the blame for the failure to reach a deal squarely on the Arab side

2. Israel unilaterally left Gaza and gave the entire territory back for nothing in return be Hamas came into power.

3. Israel has traded land for peace several times with it's other neighbors. If Israel is out for regional domination why have they given so much land back, such as the entire oil rich Sinai?

I have the facts on my side. You have only rhetoric.

 

[Whiskey16]

2. Israel unilaterally left Gaza and gave the entire territory back for nothing in return be Hamas came into power.

Right there, you unequivocally classify yourself as the propagandist in this conversation. Your absolute that Israel has looked for nothing in return is the long repeated Israeli propagandist lie for manufactured deceit.

The reality on the ground is of continued criminal Israel extraterritorial annexation of Palestinian land in the more desirable West Bank.

As I have said and you have argumentatively ignored, that fact is what gives Palestinians a moral and legal right to react against the instigating power of Israel.

3. Israel has traded land for peace several times with it's other neighbors. If Israel is out for regional domination why have they given so much land back, such as the entire oil rich Sinai?

The Egyptian Sinai is not the West bank.

I have the facts on my side. You have only rhetoric.

No, you are being a shill in repeating lying Zionist expansionist propaganda. Your vacant argument may only exist if you continue to maliciously neglect any recognition of the very real and continued Israeli annexation, colonisation and displacement of native Palestinians from their titles land in the West Bank.

 

[Number1]

The "poor" palestinians tried to wipe Israel off the map several times, true attempts at genocide. They have been paying the price ever since.
Today, they are digging up a corpses to make Israel look bad......
They are incapable of learning.

Google Hamas children.

Sucks to be Palestinian.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Some like do overs.


Israel left the Gaza; Hamas/Palestinians moved into the area and kept shelling Israel.

So much for land for peace ideas with the Gaza Palestinians.

Sinai was given back to Egypt in return for a peace treaty, which Egypt has honored.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Hopefully Hamas will use this opportunity to think of the people first. Their political stock went up because the Palestinians think that Israel stopped fighting - Hamas/militants were too strong for an invasion and the rockets were having an impact. Hams needs to usr this "victory" to turn the swords into plowshares.

Hamas gave up the military battle by accepting responsibility for anything that happens on that side of the border. In '08 they tried to squirm. This time Israel had it stated in black and white

 

[shadow9d9]

Palestinians have the right to defend themselves. I mean they only fired over 700 rockets into Israel in the last 12 months.

Israel conquered the land, so they did start it...

 

[piasabird]

If palestinians would quit trying to kill women and children and Jewish people and even killing Palestinians that want peace, I might believe they had some rights.

What terrorist do is they kill their own people if they speak out against the violence. That is how terrorism works.

 

[piasabird]

Arabs and Palestinians have more freedom in Israel than any Muslim country in their region.

 

[Whiskey16]

True to form, EagleKeeper remains dishonest to the core upon this subject:

Israel left the Gaza; Hamas/Palestinians moved into the area and kept shelling Israel.

No presentation of Palestinians already present and native in Gaza.

So much for land for peace ideas with the Gaza Palestinians.

Sinai was given back to Egypt in return for a peace treaty, which Egypt has honored.

Zero recognition of Israel's continued illegal annexation in the West Bank.

Zero honest presentation of Israeli returning land for unilaterally taking more desirable plots in the West Bank. Trading land for peace? Bullshit. Taking, colonising, and holding what it wants.

The clear shills for Israel are those who continually repeat that state's intentional propaganda of manufactured deceit -- Israel offers land for peace while Palestinians react out of unprovoked and universally barbaric hatred..

A full on disconnect with reality. A full on spin to further Israeli strategic policy of lebensraum under its provoking guise of its own manufactured insecurity.

1. Out of want for more territory, Israel illegally expands beyond its borders.
2. The native and displaced inhabitants react (some criminally, some legally), though all with the pretense of Israeli aggression lending defencive morality and international law upon their side.
3. Israeli shills vacantly fabricate that Israel is 100% infallible and thereby the implacable Palestinians will forever act only under a deep seated hatred of Jews.

I am hardly alone upon this in my own Jewish community and this pragmatic and honest view of the situation is also fairly recognised among Israelis. Unfortunately, a sufficient proportion of Israelis lack the moral compass and the retention of empathetic and historically pained lessons to adequately oppose their state's re-implementation of similarly criminally expansionist of a past notorious German state. As then, these aggressive acts are permitted and encouraged out of supremacist and greedy, patriotic nationalist fervour:

"Suddenly we are short of space here in Israel, which has become full to capacity and needs lebensraum. Every cultured person knows that this is a despicable German concept, banned from use because of the associations it brings up. Still, people are starting to use it, if not outright then with a clear implication: We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country."

 

[EagleKeeper]

Do you have an answer for the Gaza Palestinians moving into the lands the Israelis left and continued the shelling?

What did they demonstrate to Israel; unilateral actions in favor of the Palestinians are not able to make a difference.

At present the West Bank belongs to no country and is under control of Israel due to actions by the Palestinians and Jordan.

Become a country and then complain about settlements in your territory.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

1. Out of want for more territory, Israel illegally expands beyond its borders.

1. 
   
   No.

 

[Harabec]

I just gotta laugh at anyone claiming Israel is "expanding" into some unknown "land".

That is a load of crap. Israel as a country is the size of a peanut. There is nowhere to "expand". There is nothing to "conquer". One day ALL of Israel (this means current Israel+west bank) will have settlements (Israeli or not) simply because there's nowhere else to go.

 

[randomrogue]

Arabs and Palestinians have more freedom in Israel than any Muslim country in their region.

It's always fun to poke at each other in these threads and exchange some kind of historical bookmark trying to prove some useless point but I have some first hand experience that I generally fall back on while making an opinion.

Israelis all serve mandatory tours of duty in the military. I want to say it's 2 years for women and 3 for men. About 15 years ago I started meeting a lot of Israelis while out traveling. After they get out of the military almost all of them go on trips around the world before starting university. They're a lot of fun to party with.

My first experience was when a petite woman actually saved my life in Central America. Long story but the girl was tough as nails and I learned a lot from her. Since then I've met a lot more of them. They generally travel through Asia or South America but you'll meet a few in Europe, Africa, and the rest of the world as well.

When I used to Interrail through Europe I'd run into Palestinians. I've never met them outside of Europe though.

Here's the thing that surprised me. All of them. 100% of the Israelis and the Palestinians just want it to stop. They don't go into long diatribes about politics, the right of return, Jerusalem, or any of that crap. They just want it to go back to the way it was before when they all lived, studied, and worked together.

One of my Israeli friends served his time by being one of those guys who went into the Palestinian territories at night for targeted executions of known terrorists. One of the nicest guys I've met but not someone I would have liked to have run into when he did that. He spent most of his time talking about how nice it was in the territories and how if I came to Israel he'd set me up to get in there to see as much of it as possible. Israelis aren't really allowed in the territories so I'd be on my own but he said it was perfectly fine. We're not talking Gaza btw. Gaza is a shithole.

Neither side wants the terrorism. Both sides admit they're both making mistakes. Arafat was a huge problem. Today you have Hamas and they're no better. The PLO is not doing shit.

To make matters more interesting if you've ever met an Arab from the neighboring countries they think very little of the Israelis but almost less of the Palestinians. Why? They don't want them. I think the biggest fear of these countries is that refugees flood over their borders or that the existing Palestinians on their land are granted citizenship. Palestinians are basically lower than the Roma (gypsies) are in Europe and that's really saying something.

 

[EXman]

Probably because the way that the Israelis treat the Palestinians is deplorable.

Yes it is awful. Have you looked around that neighborhood? Open a history book and see who has been treated badly...

 

[EagleKeeper]

Probably because the way that the Israelis treat the Palestinians is deplorable.

Who created the ghetto/camps

Are the Palestinians living in Gaza/West Bank better or worse when Israel is in control or when the Arabs were in control.

Israel brought technology to the Palestinians; knowledge for irrigation, etc.

That information was not home grown or handed over by Jordan /Egypt/Arab countries for the locals.