It's OK to fake a Medal of Honor now.

[BoberFett]

Actually, I think some states still have criminal defamation laws on the books.

I had to look this up since I was unfamiliar with it.

http://www.rcfp.org/news/mag/25-2/lib-crimhist.html

Of the states that still have criminal defamation laws on the books, only Kansas has a statute that has survived a court attack, even though it then lacked an express actual malice requirement. In Phelps v. Hamilton, the U.S. Court of Appeals in Denver (10th Cir.) read an actual malice requirement into the statute even though one didn't exist after ruling that the legislature, which enacted the statute after Garrison, must have intended to include one.

Many of the remaining criminal defamation statutes across the country are considered to be suspect, but because so few cases are brought, there are few opportunities to challenge the statutes.

 

[BoomerD]

Good way to lose the job is investigated.

Speaking of such, I think I need to award myself a Silver Star^_^

Hey...great idea. I always did think I earned that Navy Cross back in 71...time to just award it to myself...😛


I have somewhat mixed feeings about this.

On one hand, lying in general should not be a crime...although if you lie while under oath...that's perjury...and a crime. Lying on "official documents" usually rises to the level of perjury because when signing said documents, you're usually signing an oath that what you've said is true and correct.

BUT, as much as I hate the idea of lying about earning medals...unless that person uses that lie to defraud someone financially, I can't see it being a crime. I DO think that anyone who lies about their military service on a resume or job application should be fired as soon as the lie is discovered...and any politician who lies about their military service should also be fired on the spot. NO bullshit like, "Oh, I may have misspoke," or "In my zealousness, I might have misstated things." Nope...immediate dismissal from the job.

 

[PricklyPete]

Doing it is pretty shitty...but making it illegal seems like a pointless exercise and waste of effort.

 

[keird]

Awards of valor deserve scrutiny. It does a diservice to those that earned them to not learn more of their deed. It outs the posers which is a great sport for Vets, too.

POW Network

Hall of Stolen Valor

 

[EagleKeeper]

Hey...great idea. I always did think I earned that Navy Cross back in 71...time to just award it to myself...😛


I have somewhat mixed feeings about this.

On one hand, lying in general should not be a crime...although if you lie while under oath...that's perjury...and a crime. Lying on "official documents" usually rises to the level of perjury because when signing said documents, you're usually signing an oath that what you've said is true and correct.

BUT, as much as I hate the idea of lying about earning medals...unless that person uses that lie to defraud someone financially, I can't see it being a crime. I DO think that anyone who lies about their military service on a resume or job application should be fired as soon as the lie is discovered...and any politician who lies about their military service should also be fired on the spot. NO bullshit like, "Oh, I may have misspoke," or "In my zealousness, I might have misstated things." Nope...immediate dismissal from the job.

:thumbsup:

 

[kage69]

The military... or the politicians that control it? :hmm:

Yes, the military, although the I'm not too happy with the DoD playing politics with the issue, nor am I happy about the Executive influencing the system either. Certain commendations, Medal of Honor for instance, do require extra consideration I'll admit.

But you are right if you are referring to my citation of Jessica Lynch, that was a situation where Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted to reap political hay from her accident and subsequent capture. An example of the other side would be McChrystal's disgraceful behavior in the Pat Tillman incident. To what extent politics played with his demise and the following story is still up for debate, IMO.

Commendations for valor and heroism should be based on performance, end of story. Politics go right out the window in combat, the same should hold true when recognizing conduct while in combat.

 

[Amused]

I agree with the point that lies told without intent to gain some tangible benefit (like lying on a mortgage app or to get a job) shouldn't be illegal, because it's a victimless "crime", but should lies also be protected free speech under the First? I don't think the framers intended to protect liars under the First, and nor should they be protected.

A work of fiction is a lie.

Actors make a living basically lying.

There are many types of lying. We have already outawed fraud and the one I forgot, perjury and giving false statements to the police. But to outlaw lying period, or to outlaw a lie without legal/fraudulent intent IS a violation of the first Amendment.

A cheesy but great movie explored the nature of lying in human culture. Go see "The Invention of Lying" to understand how oppressive outlawing lying would be.

 

[Amused]

If lying shouldn't be illegal, why should slander and liebel be illegal?

IMO, this ruling sets a bad precident, not the law. The law was pretty simple. Don't like about military decorations. That's a pretty basic moral and ethical rule. Saying that deliberate lies, for any reason, are covered under the 1st Ammendment in all cases is a pretty dangerous thing for a court to rule.

Not a ruling I'd have expected out of the 9th circuit, though. It meets the "common sense fail" quota, but it's a pretty libertarian view of the first ammendment.

Slander and Libel are civilly actionable (not illegal) because they are lies with intent to harm others financially/otherwise. The lie is part of a greator ACTION, just as in fraud.

Libel and slander isn't just the lie itself. It's the intent and action.

 

[Mursilis]

A work of fiction is a lie.

Actors make a living basically lying.

There are many types of lying. We have already outawed fraud and the one I forgot, perjury and giving false statements to the police. But to outlaw lying period, or to outlaw a lie without legal/fraudulent intent IS a violation of the first Amendment.

A cheesy but great movie explored the nature of lying in human culture. Go see "The Invention of Lying" to understand how oppressive outlawing lying would be.

First, my point isn't that I agree with outlawing lying - let me clearly state I don't. If you lie and there's a victim (fraud, slander, perjury, etc.), then yes, that can and should be prohibited, but if you are just sitting in a bar lying about playing major league baseball or being in the war or something, then no, that should not be against the law.

HOWEVER, I don't agree with the idea that the First protects it, for reasons already stated. And I don't think your 'actor' analogy fits this situation - when Tom Hanks played a Ranger in Saving Private Ryan, he wasn't trying to deceive anyone into believing he really did serve with the Rangers. Movies, plays, works of fiction, etc., are clearly labeled as such. It's different from some clown claiming to have won the Medal of Honor or whatever; that person is really trying to create the false impression he did do those things.

BTW, I don't know that the Supreme Court has ever found the First to protect a known falsehood either. If they've directly addressed this issue, and found it does, I'd like someone to post it here.

 

[woolfe9999]

ZzZGuy: I'm not saying society should classify every lie as a crime, but do you agree with the foundation of this decision that lying is constitutionally protected free speech? Further, do you contend that the legislature constitutionally does not have the power to make those ridiculous examples criminal behavior if it passes a law declaring them so? Note I'm not talking about the wisdom of such a statute but whether the legislature has the constitutional power. Sorry, I just don't see your woosh-I see a very poorly reasoned appellate decision.

Boberfett: my point was that if lying is constitutionally protected free speech how can ANY lies be illegal, regardless of their perceived importance?

The ruling does not say that lying is Constitutionally protected, not in an unqualified way. The examples you gave involve demonstrable and immediate harm. This ruling does not even protect lying about military decorations IF the lie itself constitutes a fraud, for example. So, if you lied about it to get a job, and were given the job because of it, or if you lied about it to get government benefits, and got the benefits because of it, that would still be criminal and civil fraud. It's only where you just lie about it to puff your up and there is no material consequence that it is protected speech.

- wolf

 

[piasabird]

If you fake it then they should shoot you a few times so you know what a real hero goes through.

 

[halik]

9th Circuit (shock!) calls Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional. 😡

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/17/BA541EVG92.DTL

Did a search and couldn't find anything, so sorry if it's a repost.

I guess the question is whether military decorations should be protected as for example medical licenses and such. I'm not totally sure whether they should.

Should it be illegal to claim something on your resume? If I tell people I was the 4th person in space, should I be prosecuted for it?

 

[zinfamous]

We can't have it illegal to lie or all of our politicians would be in trouble

yeah, some people still think Bush was a pilot....

:hmm:

 

[Craig234]

I think my sadness over this is tempered by the knowledge that the military has already disrespected and cheapened the concept of rewarding combat merit with stunts like the one involving Jessica Lynch. I think lying posers like the guy mentioned in the case should receive all the media attention possible. Real vets will eventually provide some deterrent of their own.

A lot of things that are wrong are not and should not be crimes.

Irrational citizens 'get mad' at the idea of someone lying about this. "Why, that's so disrespectful to the brave people who earn them (turn red puff puff)."

A politician, always on the lookout for things that will make voters approve to toss them while supporting their donors quietly, decides 'let's make it a crime'.

Public says 'ya!' Politician smiles for the camera. It's all good.

Except that it's wrong, not criminal, and a judge defends freedom of speech by saying 'no, children, you can't put someone who makes you mad for this in jail.'

Politician is happy, he got the public credit for trying to do so.

 

[Craig234]

But you can't say great person on the radio

And you shouldn't say it there or in this forum, sleaze.

 

[Craig234]

If y0u want to go to the bar and spin some yarn about the time you won the Medal of Honor, that's one thing, but if your running for a public office and present youself as a retired Marine who had won the Medal of Honor that's an entirely different matter IMO.

LOL, We have to at least have "the appearance" of some accountability of our public officals.

Like that won't be caught by their opponent and used to destroy their credibility.

Some people worried about thiswere fine with Bush running on lies about his story.

 

[BoberFett]

And you shouldn't say it there or in this forum, sleaze.

We all wish you wouldn't say anything in this forum, but it's never stopped you.

 

[hal2kilo]

9th Circuit (shock!) calls Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional. 😡

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/17/BA541EVG92.DTL

Did a search and couldn't find anything, so sorry if it's a repost.

Since when is fraud, freedom of speech?

Maybe since the head of the CIA got the Medal of Freedom for a complete intelligence failure.

 

[Bateluer]

Disgusting and insulting to those who actually served.

 

[Mursilis]

Bump due to ruling coming out. SCOTUS rules the Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Maybe politicians should be required to sign a contract agreeing to tell the truth or face penalties. "I do solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" might lead to more boring campaigns, but would sure be refreshing.

Isn't lying about the CMH somehow stealing from Congress? If honor has value, should counterfeiting honor be a crime?

 

[thraashman]

Maybe politicians should be required to sign a contract agreeing to tell the truth or face penalties. "I do solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" might lead to more boring campaigns, but would sure be refreshing.

Isn't lying about the CMH somehow stealing from Congress? If honor has value, should counterfeiting honor be a crime?

It's been a long held rule in this nation that even unpopular speech is protected. So lying about having earned a medal, even if dispicable, is protected speech. It just means that people will have to be more vigilant in exposing liars and being sure they suffer the social consequences of such.

 

[Mursilis]

It's been a long held rule in this nation that even unpopular speech is protected. So lying about having earned a medal, even if dispicable, is protected speech. It just means that people will have to be more vigilant in exposing liars and being sure they suffer the social consequences of such.

Unpopular speech isn't the same thing as lying (false speech). You also should read the Court's opinion - lying about having earned a medal isn't always protected speech, but it can be.

 

[Jaskalas]

Unpopular speech isn't the same thing as lying (false speech). You also should read the Court's opinion - lying about having earned a medal isn't always protected speech, but it can be.

Does this need to be criminal in nature? Just because folks do something wrong, does not necessarily mean the government needs to be involved. Folks are free to spite on those who dishonor the service.

 

[Mursilis]

Does this need to be criminal in nature? Just because folks do something wrong, does not necessarily mean the government needs to be involved. Folks are free to spite on those who dishonor the service.

I didn't say that it needed to be criminal in nature (unless it's the basis of fraud). That being said, I don't agree with extending First Amendment protections to known lies, whether for gain or not.