It's anyone following the flint water issue?

[Greenman]

How much of our water system in this country uses lead piping? Anybody have a clue? I am shocked by this situation that there is the ability to leach lead from water pipes in the first place.

I would assume the lead comes from the solder used to connect copper pipe. Not actual lead pipe.

 

[momeNt]

This is basically a non-issue if you think about the whole scheme of things.

The amount of lead that will be in their bodies won't be any higher than a kid living in a high population of an inner city area, and that's mostly attributable to leaded fuels which we haven't used in decades.

There might be an uptick in crime numbers in a decade or so as these kids mature, but Flint already is fucked in that regard due to the poverty.

 

[ivwshane]

This is basically a non-issue if you think about the whole scheme of things.

The amount of lead that will be in their bodies won't be any higher than a kid living in a high population of an inner city area, and that's mostly attributable to leaded fuels which we haven't used in decades.

There might be an uptick in crime numbers in a decade or so as these kids mature, but Flint already is fucked in that regard due to the poverty.

Seriously? Not only is that a shitty attitude to have its a horribly low expectation of how government should work.

 

[werepossum]

You are embarrassing in your claim of knowing what's going on, when you really don't. You're a gearhead. Congratulations. That means exactly zero when it comes to what's gone on in the city of Flint. Especially when you're talking to someone (boomerang) who's been around it for a huge chunk of time - and now myself who lived there for over a decade, and has lived within 30 miles of it my whole life. I lived through GM closing down 42 manufacturing plants in and surrounding Flint. The plants where I worked are now parking lots filled with weeds, and GM can't sell them because they're so badly polluted that it's going to end up being a superfund site if GM lets it.

It's pointless to go into the history of Flint. It's a sad history that deals with entitlement, handouts, corruption, and a total lack of leadership. It shares an entry with "Detroit" in the dictionary.

Here's the 'facts'. The Emergency Manager and a number of other folks got the idea to get off the Detroit Water Authority. Detroit Water has a whole slew of it's own issues - including the fact that they're out of money and can't keep the system running. It was clear they could save a huge chunk of money (and finally will) when they start handling the water from Huron.

It was a good idea.

In the interim, they chose to take water from the Flint River. You must understand the clean, good tasting drinking water can be made from raw sewage. So regardless of the state of the river, the temporary change to it should have made no difference - had the water been TREATED correctly.

A series of emails has made it very clear that the DEQ (the Department of Environmental Quality) knew the water was not up to the standards that it should have been. A number of emails circulated between these officials. They were told, by the head of the DEQ that resigned, that they didn't need to fix the water problem. Why?

Because the timing of the required water testing was such that they would switch over to the new clean water source before the mandated testing was complete and the treatment systems would have been installed. He directed his personnel not to worry about it. He fought the United States EPA official who was warning him about it. He basically said - The law says that two rounds of tests have to say it's bad.... and I'm not doing anything until they do. He being the Michigan DEQ head. Then he directed the people working for him not to worry about it because by the time the testing was done, and redone, to meet all the standards, it would be to late to bother treating the water because the new system would be online.

This had two do with ONE individual - the head of the Michigan DEQ - abusing his position. I hope he gets strung up, sued, and thrown in prison for his actions.

But your continuing bullshit about Synder, etc etc..... it just standard partisian hackery.

You make good points. It really sounds to me like the DEQ either aren't competent to do their jobs, or are willing to simply write off a generation of Flint kids. I am in no way an expert of water quality, but I certainly know that federal law requires treatment of extremely acidic (or otherwise corrosive) water, and why. This is hardly esoteric technical knowledge; it is extremely widespread knowledge, and I am astounded that an entire state department would either be ignorant of this. I am also astounded that neither of the two emergency managers looked into this given the reputation of the Flint River, but the DEQ, that's what they do for a living.

 

[EduCat]

I saw a video today of the water coming out of their faucets. Nasty shit!

 

[werepossum]

I would assume the lead comes from the solder used to connect copper pipe. Not actual lead pipe.

In houses, you would be correct - it is from lead solder and to a lesser degree, from brass or bronze where lead is added to provide malleability. But many, many cities still rely mostly on lead pipes to distribute water, because lead is a superior material for long-lasting, low pressure piping. However, acidic water can very quickly strip away the natural oxidation that coats lead piping and begins to carry dissolved ionic lead, which easily replaces iron in our bodies.

 

[RampantAndroid]

In houses, you would be correct - it is from lead solder and to a lesser degree, from brass or bronze where lead is added to provide malleability. But many, many cities still rely mostly on lead pipes to distribute water, because lead is a superior material for long-lasting, low pressure piping. However, acidic water can very quickly strip away the natural oxidation that coats lead piping and begins to carry dissolved ionic lead, which easily replaces iron in our bodies.

I think it's also worth adding that most of your basic water filters out there don't even remove lead, unless it's a pretty restrictive filter (aka, not inline with your main water or a faucet - hooked to a separate faucet only for drinking water.) And stuff like reverse osmosis to filter everything out (including fluoride) is expensive...so I'm unsure what kind of filters they're handing out...and if they will do little more than reduce the amount of sediment in the water.

 

[werepossum]

I think it's also worth adding that most of your basic water filters out there don't even remove lead, unless it's a pretty restrictive filter (aka, not inline with your main water or a faucet - hooked to a separate faucet only for drinking water.) And stuff like reverse osmosis to filter everything out (including fluoride) is expensive...so I'm unsure what kind of filters they're handing out...and if they will do little more than reduce the amount of sediment in the water.

I wondered that myself. To my limited knowledge, the basic lead removal filters are reverse osmosis, distillation, and chemical, usually activated charcoal. The first two seem highly unlikely on a household basis. The third (at least with charcoal, I don't know about more esoteric compounds) is not at all effective on highly acidic (or highly basic) water. And I would guess that with all that dissolved iron, the cartridges would wear out in mere days even if the water is first treated to raise the pH. (I'm assuming here that the lead content is due to extreme acidity and not something more esoteric and corrosive, which may be a bad assumption.) Seems like even the National Guard wouldn't get finished installing them before they had to start going back and replacing filter cartridges.

It's also worth pointing out that although these decisions were made locally, the whole point of having a state Department of Environmental Quality and a federal Environmental Protection Agency is to protect the people from stupid and/or evil decisions. In this case, both of those agencies failed spectacularly. It's also worth pointing out that Snyder's top aide expressed the feeling that Flint citizens' complaints were not being accorded due attention a full six months before the governor declared a state of emergency. Given how quickly water can be tested and how serious is the potential damage, that is simply inexcusable. Any credible threat must be honored. And given that the Flint River is notorious for being polluted, it is simply inexcusable that the DEQ and EPA weren't all up in Flint's business from the get-go, testing the water for every possible problem BEFORE Flint switched to it. Wouldn't take a week to get the results - although apparently it would take six months to RELEASE the results from either agency. When one is trying to get a city back on its feet, not dooming a generation to mild retardation seems like a pretty bad step to miss.

 

[stlc8tr]

I think it's also worth adding that most of your basic water filters out there don't even remove lead, unless it's a pretty restrictive filter (aka, not inline with your main water or a faucet - hooked to a separate faucet only for drinking water.) And stuff like reverse osmosis to filter everything out (including fluoride) is expensive...so I'm unsure what kind of filters they're handing out...and if they will do little more than reduce the amount of sediment in the water.

The claim is that the filter will remove 99.3% of lead at concentrations up to 150 ppb for up to 100 gallons.

http://www.wsmh.com/sections/newsro...free-Flint-water-filters-remove--215847.shtml

"All Brita faucet mount filters, including the 20,000 faucet mount filters distributed this week by state and local organizations, are certified by NSF International to remove 99.3 percent of lead from tap water that has a lead concentration of 150 parts per billion - far higher than what has been reported in Flint. There is no possible issue with old or outdated packaging. Quite simply, all Brita Faucet Mount filters are certified by NSF International to reduce lead.All Brita faucet mount filters, including the 20,000 faucet mount filters distributed this week by state and local organizations, are certified by NSF International to remove 99.3 percent of lead from tap water that has a lead concentration of 150 parts per billion - far higher than what has been reported in Flint. There is no possible issue with old or outdated packaging. Quite simply, all Brita Faucet Mount filters are certified by NSF International to reduce lead."

That statement came from David Kargas, Associate Director of PR for Brita.

The filters are good for about 100 gallons of water on a faucet.

 

[DrDoug]

You make good points. It really sounds to me like the DEQ either aren't competent to do their jobs, or are willing to simply write off a generation of Flint kids. I am in no way an expert of water quality, but I certainly know that federal law requires treatment of extremely acidic (or otherwise corrosive) water, and why. This is hardly esoteric technical knowledge; it is extremely widespread knowledge, and I am astounded that an entire state department would either be ignorant of this. I am also astounded that neither of the two emergency managers looked into this given the reputation of the Flint River, but the DEQ, that's what they do for a living.

And who was the person who put this guy in charge of the DEQ? The same guy who released his emails to show that he has nothing to hide. Unfortunately the only things he didn't black out were the To: and From:...lol! Snyder made the bad choices that led to the people being in power who also made bad choices that led to this disaster. What ever happened to "The Buck Stops Here"?

If Snyder was the Captain of the Titanic he would be in a life boat watching it sink.

 

[boomerang]

How many Flint's until we learn our lesson?

A word that is curiously scarce in coverage of this disaster: Democrat.


Flint, like big brother Detroit down the way, has a long history of political dominance by the Democratic party. Its current mayor is a Democrat; so was her predecessor; the mayor before him, Don Williamson, was a career criminal (he did time for various scams some years back) and a Democrat who resigned under threat of recall; his immediate predecessor, Democrat James W. Rutherford, is a longtime politico and was elected to finish out the term of Woodrow Stanley, who was recalled because of the financial state in which he left the city.


Stanley was in effect replaced by — Democrat — Darnell Earley, former director of the Democratic legislative caucus’s research-and-policy team, who became the city’s emergency manager. Earley is the Democrat the other Democrats blame for changing the city’s water supply, and the Michigan Democratic party has demanded his termination.


The Obama administration knew about this, too, and had known for a long time, since February of last year at least — but it chose to keep quiet on the matter.

Flint's Water a Recurring, Democrat Problem

The reason the crisis is happening is that politicians have incentives to defer maintenance and upgrades on infrastructure and instead spend public funds, even to the point of bankruptcy, on buying votes, especially from organized special interests like unions, with programs like luxurious pensions or bail outs of failing corporations. Like the unions Obama was in Detroit to rally.

The result is that citizens, in the words of analyst Mark Aesch, people “are paying Ritz Carlton level taxes and getting Bates Motel quality government.”

One aspect of the story that has gone uncovered is that it isn’t new. It’s a repeat of a very similar event that happened only 12 years ago.

In 2004, Washington, D.C.. was discovered to have been serving up high lead content water to its residents and to some neighboring communities like Falls Church, Virginia, that used water from its municipal water authority.

With Democrats In Charge The Result Is Racism, Rape, Riots and Poison Water

Pop quiz: Who almost exclusively has run Hollywood, America’s university system, and almost every big urban city in America, and done so for decades? The answer is more complicated than “Democrats.” Most of the people who run these institutions and communities are so much more than Democrats. They are leftists — hardcore, government-loving, Alinsky-worshipping, central planning, community-organizing leftists.

Fortunately, the times, they are a-changin'. We'll all benefit from leftist policies and politician's being put on the back burner for a while. Not to worry though, that pendulum will swing back because there's always one bad apple left behind. The march towards utopia will eventually resume.

 

[Exterous]

And who was the person who put this guy in charge of the DEQ? The same guy who released his emails to show that he has nothing to hide. Unfortunately the only things he didn't black out were the To: and From:...lol! Snyder made the bad choices that led to the people being in power who also made bad choices that led to this disaster. What ever happened to "The Buck Stops Here"?

If Snyder was the Captain of the Titanic he would be in a life boat watching it sink.

No love for the Obama appointed EPA Chief Administrator for Region 5? The same district that knew of problems months in advance but didn't bother to take action, that actively silenced reports of lead issues, that took over half a year to release water testing results, that cared more about bureaucracy than health and human safety?

If we are going to blame the people who appointed some of the people at fault to power then why does Obama get a pass?

In regards to the EPA and water quality issues:

The United States Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA) is in the midst of revising the federal Lead and Copper Rule (LCR). The intent of the 25-year-old regulation – detecting “worst case” levels of lead in water in U.S. homes and mitigating effectively extensive contamination – has never been realized.

First and foremost, this is because sampling of water sitting in lead pipes was never required. If such sampling were required, it is estimated that water utilities in 70% of U.S cities with lead service lines would exceed the LCR lead standard, and residents in those cities would be urged to take urgent precautions to protect themselves and their families from exposure to lead in their drinking water. In other words, millions of consumers who are currently being told that their water is safe, are drinking and cooking with water that routinely dispenses high concentrations of lead.

I have worked with Dr. Lambrinidou, founder of Parents for Nontoxic Alternatives and affiliate member of the Science and Technology Studies program at Virginia Tech, on lead-in-water problems in many cities. What we have witnessed with grave concern is that even when States and utilities are caught red-handed – cheating on consumer tap sampling or falsifying reports of results – the U.S. EPA looks the other way or even helps the agencies to harm large population.

http://flintwaterstudy.org/2015/11/dr-yanna-lambrinidous-dissenting-opinion-on-the-upcoming-lead-and-copper-rule-lcr-long-term-revisions/

 

[NesuD]

Being that I was born and raised in Flint, work in Flint, and reside in a suburb of Flint I can speak with a certain amount of authority that what is presented in the general media about the Flint water situation only bears a slight resemblance to the actual facts. If you want to read a far more enlightening article about who did or did not do what and when then read the linked article from the National Review. I know some will want to dismiss it as a conservative publication but I can say with certainty that everything they say is factually true unlike what I am seeing in the general media. In a nutshell there is a lot more blame here than is being reported in the mainstream media.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430072/flint-lead-water-scandal

 

[DrDoug]

How many Flint's until we learn our lesson?

Flint's Water a Recurring, Democrat Problem

With Democrats In Charge The Result Is Racism, Rape, Riots and Poison Water

Fortunately, the times, they are a-changin'. We'll all benefit from leftist policies and politician's being put on the back burner for a while. Not to worry though, that pendulum will swing back because there's always one bad apple left behind. The march towards utopia will eventually resume.

Apologetic rightwing shitholes are your sources...lol?! NR? The Dead Guy Whose Zombie Site Won't Die? I'll just leave you morons to defend the indefensible as you all so like to do because reality isn't something you folks are familiar with. As I said before, I'm not a Democrat so blame away if you wish, it doesn't bother me a bit.

So White Knight for your party all you want...lol!

 

[momeNt]

From what I understand, he followed the law. So who is going to be sued if people get sick? The EPA/Regulators for having laws that enable people to get sick? Or Flint for following the law?

 

[boomerang]

As I said before, I'm not a Democrat so blame away if you wish, it doesn't bother me a bit.

Oh, yeah. I can see that. Mad at the world I guess. Or, just mad.

 

[fskimospy]

Being that I was born and raised in Flint, work in Flint, and reside in a suburb of Flint I can speak with a certain amount of authority that what is presented in the general media about the Flint water situation only bears a slight resemblance to the actual facts. If you want to read a far more enlightening article about who did or did not do what and when then read the linked article from the National Review. I know some will want to dismiss it as a conservative publication but I can say with certainty that everything they say is factually true unlike what I am seeing in the general media. In a nutshell there is a lot more blame here than is being reported in the mainstream media.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430072/flint-lead-water-scandal

Except for the mountains of extremely important facts they left out of course. Like how they mentioned the emergency manager was a democrat, but failed to mention that the law that put the emergency manager in charge was passed twice by Republicans over the ballot veto of the citizens. Or that the article mentions the city council voted 7-1 to go off Detroit water but then doesn't mention that the city council also voted 7-1 to go back on it after problems developed. Those seem like curious omissions for an article providing a 'much better' take on the situation. lol.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Being that I was born and raised in Flint, work in Flint, and reside in a suburb of Flint I can speak with a certain amount of authority that what is presented in the general media about the Flint water situation only bears a slight resemblance to the actual facts. If you want to read a far more enlightening article about who did or did not do what and when then read the linked article from the National Review. I know some will want to dismiss it as a conservative publication but I can say with certainty that everything they say is factually true unlike what I am seeing in the general media. In a nutshell there is a lot more blame here than is being reported in the mainstream media.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430072/flint-lead-water-scandal

Plenty of blame to go around for everybody it seems...I'm just damn glad they finally found a Republican they could pin it all on. /s

I see that the regional administrator overseeing this crisis for the EPA resigned yesterday. Apparently the EPA knew there were issues long before the governor found out.

 

[Sonikku]

Corporations tell us clean water isn't a right. Now that this is polluted we can charge them extra for the clean stuff.

 

[theeedude]

It's not just a problem in Flint.
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-01-21/flint-s-not-the-only-problem-in-michigan

Neither are some of the 7,000 residents living in and around the 48217 ZIP code in southwest Detroit, labeled by the Detroit Free Press as the state’s most polluted. They’re getting no help from the state in their efforts to stop a Marathon Petroleum refinery from increasing emissions of sulfur dioxide and seven other toxic chemicals.

People need to realize that electing Republicans can be hazardous to their and their children's health. Someone has to pay for the "benefits" of fewer regulations.

 

[fskimospy]

Plenty of blame to go around for everybody it seems...I'm just damn glad they finally found a Republican they could pin it all on. /s

I see that the regional administrator overseeing this crisis for the EPA resigned yesterday. Apparently the EPA knew their were issues long before the governor found out.

I think there is plenty of blame to go around too. The city council, the EPA, etc, are all failures in this. The National Review's declaration that this was all caused by democrats through is a hilarious lie.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

It's not just a problem in Flint.
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-01-21/flint-s-not-the-only-problem-in-michigan


People need to realize that electing Republicans can be hazardous to their and their children's health. Someone has to pay for the "benefits" of fewer regulations.

The irony here is that the reason Marathon wants to modify their permit is the direct result of new EPA regulations for gasoline.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...marathon-refinery-emissions-detroit/78320280/

A Marathon spokesman said the emissions increases are necessary for the company to meet new federal standards on cleaner fuels. After the increases, release levels will remain below what is permitted by law, the company says.

“The project at the refinery will enable the facility to comply with the EPA regulation by reducing sulfur dioxide emissions from gasoline,” said Jamal Kheiry, Marathon’s communications manager. “As a result of this project, we expect the refinery’s emission levels will continue to be well below those allowed under its existing permit.”

 

[Exterous]

Apparently the EPA knew there were issues long before the governor found out.

Not only that but when an EPA person leaked information to Flint residents the Mayor of Flint contacted the EPA for details and Susan Hedman actively refused to provide them. She instead thought it would be better to wait 5 more months for the official report to be released

 

[piasabird]

There will be no easy solution for Flint. Now every house in that water district now has a certain amount of lead in the pipes, and thousands of children are at a disadvantage with a possible learning disability and developmental problems. Just shows you the need to have a whole house filter system for drinking water. I would not even take a bath in that stuff.

 

[piasabird]

The whole city should be condemned.