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It's another one of those posts, from a long time lurker

V

Vogel515

Senior member
First off, I have to give a lot of praise for the help many of you give to those who come to the site looking for advice. This website has served as a great resource for myself and many friends.

1. What YOUR PC will be used for. That means what types of tasks you'll be performing.

The PC will be mainly used for:

Work
- web design
- photoshop
- database design

Play
- light gaming
- I'd like to be able to watch movies and work

2. What YOUR budget is. A price range is acceptable as long as it's not more than a 20% spread

$1000 or less - I plan on buying the computer in the next 2 weeks.

3. What country YOU will be buying YOUR parts from.

USA

4. IF YOU have a brand preference. That means, are you an Intel-Fanboy, AMD-Fanboy, ATI-Fanboy, nVidia-Fanboy, Seagate-Fanboy, WD-Fanboy, etc, etc, etc, you get the picture.

I'm partial to intel.

5. If YOU intend on using any of YOUR current parts, and if so, what those parts are.

I have:
- 17" CRT Dell monitor
- 19" Dell Ultrasharp

I plan to:
- add a second 19" dell Ultrasharp or one 24" monitor (not included in the budget)

I also have two WD PATA drives that I know will probably not be compatible with the new motherboards but I'd like some advice for transferring the data. I was also given a copy of Windows Vista Premium...legit - no worries.

6. IF YOU have searched and/or read similar threads.

A few months ago I was close to pulling the trigger on a bunch of parts but I decided to change jobs and I fell out of the loop. It's amazing how quickly the technology is changing even in 5 months.

7. IF YOU plan on overclocking or run the system at default speeds.

I do not plan on overclocking.



Here is what I put together 5 months ago:

LIAN LI PC-7B plus II Black
GIGABYTE GA-965P-DS3
EVGA 256-P2-N761-AR GeForce 8600GTS 256MB
FSP Group (Fortron Source) AX500-PN ATX2.2 500W Power Supply
Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 Conroe 2.13GHz
CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB)


priced out at newegg this is about $700



My questions, concerns, and additional information:

Can someone suggest a DVD-rw and / or CD-rom?

I want this computer to be in a nice looking case, I think the Lian Li is a nice case, but I never realized how big it is until I saw it in a store. Can someone recommend me a case that is significantly smaller that can fit the components I'm looking at? Would I be able to fit these components in a microATX case? could someone suggest changes that might make it fit in one?

Should I get more than 2gb of ram? What is the optimal configuration of sticks? 2x 1gb? 2x 2gb?

I'd like the computer to be reasonably quiet, its not a necessity.

The computer needs to support dual monitors.

Is it really worth it for me to upgrade to say the Corsair 520w power supply? I've heard great things about the FSP power supply. Please do not tell me I need anything in excess of 520w. Will this power supply fit in a smaller case?

The Geforce 8600 can play high def and is Direct X 10 capable, correct?



Thanks again for any help / suggestions if you need any additional information please ask and I will respond ASAP.
 
Here are my recommendations. Note that these are just suggestions on a baseline to compare by. Pricing, availability and what's hot can change rapidly, plus some people are partial to other products. I will try to explain my choices. For the most part I've linked to Newegg, however that is just convenience on my part. Sometimes better deals can be found elsewhere, especially on power supplies and cases.

CPU: Core 2 Duo E6750 $195 shipped
Highest available amount of cache memory in a Core 2 Duo, plus relatively high stock MHz (2.66GHz) combined with reasonable price makes for a winner. Next step up would be a Q6600 (quad core) at around $80 more. The dual core runs at a higher MHz so it will be faster in single threaded apps, but the quad core may be faster in certain circumstances. I'd venture a guess that about 99% of users won't miss those additional 2 cores, and 99% of the remaining users would miss those cores simply because of psychological needs.

ATX motherboard: a P35 chipset board starting at $107 shipped
Almost all of them are reasonably decent. Stick with known "enthusiast" brands if you want to overclock any, otherwise any will work. Skip those that require DDR3 as IMO there is not enough additional performance to justify the huge price increase. For the most part all of these boards should be equal in performance at a given MHz (some do overclock better than others) so buy based on price and features. I do have to say this though... probably 95% of people interested in a P35 chipset board can probably get by with just the cheapest one and not miss a thing.

mATX motherboard: a G33 chipset board starting at $96 shipped
These are choice for micro ATX Intel rigs. The Gigabyte and Abit models seem most popular among overclockers, followed by the MSI. Gigabyte has three models - avoid the middle model as that one is geared more for using onboard video and thus does not have a "real" PCI-E 16x slot. Not overclocking? Then get whatever you want based on price/features. Performance should be the same.

CPU heatsink: Scythe Ninja $41 shipped
You said you weren't overclocking, so you should be able to run this one passive (as in don't mount the included fan). This makes for a quieter system. Especially since you aren't overclocking, don't even worry about temperatures. Seriously, does it matter whether your CPU is running at 45ºC or 55ºC? As long as it isn't overheating, then there's no problem. And if it does overheat, it won't die but simply "throttle" meaning it will slow itself down, at which point you will know that it is running too hot. However, this heatsink should be able to keep a stock clocked CPU cool enough with no worries. There is also a cheaper "Mini Ninja" available if you end up with a narrow case, but I think almost all tower cases will fit this just fine.

RAM: any 2x1GB DDR2-800 starting at $63 shipped
May as well get cheapest if you aren't overclocking. If you really want the extra RAM, go for a 2x2GB kit for $100 more. You can get 4x1GB for cheaper, but may as well spend the extra couple bucks for a minimum number of sticks - that way you can at least upgrade to 8GB if the desire strikes (and you're running a 64 bit OS).

Video card: passive Geforce 8600GTS $156 shipped before rebate or passive Radeon 2600XT for $110 shipped
A nice mid-range card should be more than adequate for your needs, which are self-described as "light gaming, photoshop, movies." Choose ATI (AMD) or Nvidia base on preference, or just the cheaper one if no preference. Both cards support dual monitors. Both cards (unlike their higher end cousins) support HD decoding. Both are DX10.

Optical drive: any SATA DVD burner starting at $34 shipped
Optical drives are another commodity. Just get the cheapest ones which has features that you want, is SATA and matches your case color. There are really only two big features to think about, and those are DVDRAM capabilities and Lightscribe capabilities. Those are about $39 shipped, so don't hurt your brain thinking about it. DVDRAM is a special (as in expensive) disc that can be written to almost like a hard drive... a really slow hard drive. Discs you record to can only be read in a drive that can support DVDRAM (reading at least, not burning) so compatibility is not universal. Lightscribe is a way to use the "unused" portions of a disc as a label, so you can record the label directly onto the disc with the burner. However, it requires special (as in more expensive) media and the results are... merely legible. I'd say if you're worried about it, just eat ramen for one meal and then spring for the extra $5 to get one with these capabilities. BTW, IMO if you want nice looking labels, get an inkjet printer that can print directly to disc. These capabilities are available even in some cheaper Canon and Epson units, or in some special disc-only printers. Then get special (as in more expensive... but barely) media that is made for inkjet printing.

Hard drive: Seagate 250GB single platter $70 shipped
This is probably the highest performing 7200RPM drive smaller than 500GB. If you think you need more capacity, use this for a boot drive and get a 1TB Seagate for around $335 shipped. Alternately get a 150GB Raptor for around $200 shipped and then a data drive.

Power supply: Corsair 450VX for $88 shipped
This power supply will put out enough power for a more powerful system than yours, plus is quiet and of great quality. Video cards now are the single largest consumer of electricity in a computer, but you will likely be going mid-range. Thus a "mere" 450W is more than enough. This PSU is still kind of pricey, but worth it for the quality alone. A viable alternative for a cheaper unit is to find an Antec EarthWatts unit on sale or with a rebate for half the price (if available). Those are almost as quiet and good quality.

ATX case: Antec Solo for $106 shipped (Antec cases are often much cheaper elsewhere)
You wanted small and quiet, so here it is for a full ATX motherboard. Reasonably heavy metal, sound dampening panels attached to the interior, indirect airflow path for reduced noise, air filter for intake, option of soft grommet or suspended hard drive mounting, spots for two 92mm and one 120mm fan... all in a nice looking case with a bunch of drive bays, yet is smaller than most ATX towers.

micro ATX case: Antec NSK3480 case/power for $116 shipped (as cheap as $81 shipped elsewhere)
This is like the tiny version of the Solo. It even comes with an EarthWatts EA380 power supply which can probably run your rig just fine. Drawback is probably the fewest drive bays in any mATX tower, with only one "real" HDD mounting spot with two other possible mounts (where floppy goes, or the second optical bay). Has exceptional airflow.

alternate micro ATX case: Silverstone TJ08 for $115 shipped
If you like the looks of the Lian Li cases, then you'll probably like this case. Also available in silver. Has exceptional airflow with front/rear 120mm fans with very unrestrictive finger guards on them. Only issue is that the actual chassis is kind of cheap, with thinner metal than the other choices.

alternate micro ATX case: Cooler Master Centurion 541 for $65 shipped
Another good choice. The layout is kind of weird so some don't like it (motherboard "upside down"), but airflow and quality is good.

alternate micro ATX case: In Win v605 series for $76 shipped
An older design, but one that is still very excellent. Probably the best airflow you can get without a 120mm fan and great quality construction. A 350W PSU is included but I don't think it would be up to the task of running your rig long term.

Cost using cheapest options: $762 shipped
(Core 2 Duo, mATX board, Scythe Ninja, 2GB RAM, Radeon, DVD burner, single 250GB HDD, Corsair PSU, cheapest case)

If you want to go closer to the $1000 limit, then you can play around with choices, such as doubling RAM or getting a more expensive case.

As for getting data off your old PATA drives, you can get full enclosures for them or even put them in your system (most boards have a third party PATA port) for more permanent access, or just get a $9 USB to IDE adaptor cable for temporary access.
 
Hey Zap,

Thank you very much, I appreciate your very thorough response.

A few questions:

Do I need the aftermarket heatsink? I've heard the retail one that comes with the Core2Duo would suffice. How easy has it become to overclock? Is it just a matter of changing BIOS settings now?

I've also heard that DDR3 is just not worth the money, will I see any performance difference in the G33 vs the P35?

If I was to step up from the 8600gts or 2600xt what would you pick?

Thanks again
 
Overclocking is indeed a matter of changing BIOS settings, no fiddling with jumpers. The e6750 should run at 3.2ghz without to much trouble. Might be fun to play around with. For stock settings the retail HSF does suffice, but a arctic freezer 7 pro or whatever will make less noise and cool better at the same time. The reason you buy p35 is because you can drop in a Penryn qaudcore by the time you feel like it, in let's say a year and a half. Not sure if g33 supports Penryn.

I like the solo, for just 90$ it's a pretty good buy. But for 130$ you got a antec sonata III with a antec earthwatts 500w power supply. That way you save some money, and get a good case with a pretty good PSU included. http://www.newegg.com/Product/...k=antec%2bsonata%2bIII

As for the HD, I would go with a samsung spinpoint 500gb, least noisiest, least hot HD out there at 500-750gb, only 1tb HD's run cooler/quieter. I like having 1 big HD, instead of several 😛 And if you want a step up from the 8600, go with the 8800gts 320mb. It will power 2 screens, and will let you game on one screen just fine for some time, especially if starcraft will be the most demanding game you play on it. For that a 8600gt(s) should suffice fairly well too though. But those cards are NOT ment to run dx10 games in their fully glory. Last but not least, for future proofness and clean cable management I'd go with the 520hx, modular design and has that little extra power needed for qauds, high-end videocards and such.

For your usage btw, I would really shell out the extra 100$ for a qaudcore, and 65$ extra for another 2gb of ram, and go with Vista 64x. Photoshop will love the qaudcore and 4gb of ram. The ram could be done without at first, because you can add it in later, but the qaudcore can't be that easily replaced.
 
Hey Marc,

Thanks for the response.

Good to hear about the overclocking, I will definitely consider overclocking if its that simple now.

I think I am going to go with the Antec Solo, it's received great reviews and it looks like a decent case. I also like the ideal of a modular power supply too bad the 450watt corsair is not modular. That will be a tough decision.

I will also have to think about the upgrade to the quadcore, I might do the 4gb of ram just because ram is so cheap now.

Thanks again.
 
If you can assemble a PC and install windows, then you can overclock. It's illogical to pay 2x the price for a CPU when you can buy one at 1/2 price (same internal core design) and overclock it to its full potential! Go to the MB forum under Abit IP35-E Review for a lot more installation and overclocking tips. Plenty of 1st time builders hitting +3.0GHz on sub $100 chips.

CPU...E2160/E2180/E4300/E4400 ($70 to $90 depending on sale over the web)

GPU...7600 or 7900 with dual monitor support

MB...Abit IP35-E at MWAVE ($71 After Rebate)

CPU cooler...stock cooler is good up to about 3.0GHz. It can cool NB, MOSFETs, and RAMs. Plus it's free with the retail CPU. Upgrade CPU cooler only if you catch the overclock bug or want a whisper quiet rig. I use the $18 open box Big Typhoon (NewEgg) modded with medium speed 120 x 38 mm Panaflo.

RAM...$15 after rebate 1GB HP/Crucial DDR2 667 RAM at hot deals forum. You'll need four sticks for 4GB ($60 total). Web design and photoshop eat RAMs for breakfast. Same with Vista!

PSU...Antec Earthwatts 500. Look for sale on the internet. I paid $30 AR at Frys.com.

HDD...any cheap 7200 rpm PATA or SATA drive from Seagate, Maxtor, or WD. A $30 160GB Maxtor (often on sale at Office Depot or Staples) boot HDD may be adequate if you're planning to re-use the two PATA drives. You won't notice much difference in speed between modern HDDs without benchmark proggies. There are many reports about compatibility between Raptor drives and P35 boards (Asus, Abit, etc) so I would not use them.

DVD burner...Sony/NEC Optiac SATA if you want to re-use the two PATA HDDs. Otherwise a PATA burner will do the job. The MB accepts up to two PATA devices. Cost is $25 to $30.

Case...Antec Solo. I have one sealed in box for sale in S Cal. Local pickup. $55 cash. Black only.

If you need more speed in 2008, then upgrade the CPU to a 45nm quad.
 
Hey Serpent,

When overclocking is it more or less stressfull for say the E4400 to be overclocked to 3.0 then the e6750? Longevity of this machine is also important. I like the idea of saving the money and upgrading to a quad core a year from now.

Thanks for the suggestion on the motherboard and ram.

Will I notice a performance drop between DDR2 800 and DDR2 667? I'd like to avoid dealing with all the timings. How fill this effect the upgrade path?

How is the efficiency of the earthwats 500w? What justification is there in paying $88 for the corsair 450w?

I'd gladly take the case off your hands but I'm in Boston, MA.


Thanks again for all the suggestions.
 
Originally posted by: Vogel515
Hey Serpent,

When overclocking is it more or less stressfull for say the E4400 to be overclocked to 3.0 then the e6750? Longevity of this machine is also important. I like the idea of saving the money and upgrading to a quad core a year from now.

Thanks for the suggestion on the motherboard and ram.

Will I notice a performance drop between DDR2 800 and DDR2 667? I'd like to avoid dealing with all the timings. How fill this effect the upgrade path?

How is the efficiency of the earthwats 500w? What justification is there in paying $88 for the corsair 450w?

I'd gladly take the case off your hands but I'm in Boston, MA.


Thanks again for all the suggestions.
Click to expand...

E4400 has 10x multi. Therefore, it's less demanding on CPU, RAM, and MB when you overclock. I do not recommend overclocking 7x or 8x multi CPU unless you're cash starved.

You'll be running C1E and EIST when you overclock. Therefore, the CPU voltage and core speed will only ramp up to the overclocked setting as needed. The overclocked rig should run for at leat five years as long as you don't put the PC in an enclosure that will cause it to overheat.

Speed difference between 800 and 667 is about 1 to 2%. That's equivalent to 50MHz core speed. Again, you will not notice the improvement without benchmark proggies. The key is to load up with at least 3GB of RAM. Windows 32-bit will only detect up to 3.2GB.

I figure you would have problem with RAM timing. That's why I recommend quality 1.8V JEDEC DDR2 667. Board will properly set voltage and timing per specs after you clear CMOS. You only need to access the BIOS to switch to 1:1 memory divider and raise RAM voltage to 2.0 if you want to push the CPU above 3.0GHz. KISS.

Earthwatts should remain in the +80% range during normal use. It's make by Seasonic, same company that makes the high-end Corsair PSUs. Corsair charges more $ because people are willing to pay more $ for the perception that they are getting a much better PSU. Same logic between Toyota and Lexus. Both share many major powertrain components. Toyota simply slap a different P/N to justify the higher price.

Marketing is a very powerful tool in the US. Look at the Apple phone thingy. $600 one day, then $400 a short time later for the same widget. Can you say "bend over"?
 
Hey Serpent,

Thanks again, you're helping me out and raising more questions from me. First off, here's a new look at my wish list which has been modified to accompany some changes:

Antec Solo - I've decided I will just pick this up locally and save some $ on shipping. I may opt out for a Lian Li or a Cooler Master depending on price.

CORSAIR 450W or Earthwatts 500w - I'm going to plan on getting the corsair through newegg since they are the same price, when I start shopping for parts I may opt out for a seasonic or the earthwatts that is dependent on price.

E4400 - Looks like this is the way to go if overclocking really has become that easy. If I end up as far under budget as it looks like I will I may opt for something that is faster at stock.

Abit IP35-E - sounds like a good bet

G.SKILL 2GB DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) - How is this ram?

Western Digital 160GB 7200 RPM SATA - I really do not need a ton of space, and if I can salvage my 80gb WD I will.

SAMSUNG 940BX Black 19" - unless someone can recommend something better for around $200

SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R SATA - can someone recommend something better?



And for the questions:

What is JEDEC DDR2 667?
What does "You'll be running C1E and EIST when you overclock" mean?
Are sound cards really necessary anymore?
Can someone recommend a cheap but nice set of 2.1 speakers?
If windows vista 32bit only recognizes 3.2gb of ram, what is the optimal ram set up? 2x 1gb? 2x512mb? or just 4gb?


Thanks again for all the help.
 
Originally posted by: Vogel515
Hey Serpent,

Thanks again, you're helping me out and raising more questions from me. First off, here's a new look at my wish list which has been modified to accompany some changes:

Antec Solo - I've decided I will just pick this up locally and save some $ on shipping. I may opt out for a Lian Li or a Cooler Master depending on price.

CORSAIR 450W or Earthwatts 500w - I'm going to plan on getting the corsair through newegg since they are the same price, when I start shopping for parts I may opt out for a seasonic or the earthwatts that is dependent on price.

E4400 - Looks like this is the way to go if overclocking really has become that easy. If I end up as far under budget as it looks like I will I may opt for something that is faster at stock.

Abit IP35-E - sounds like a good bet

G.SKILL 2GB DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) - How is this ram?

Western Digital 160GB 7200 RPM SATA - I really do not need a ton of space, and if I can salvage my 80gb WD I will.

SAMSUNG 940BX Black 19" - unless someone can recommend something better for around $200

SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R SATA - can someone recommend something better?



And for the questions:

What is JEDEC DDR2 667?
What does "You'll be running C1E and EIST when you overclock" mean?
Are sound cards really necessary anymore?
Can someone recommend a cheap but nice set of 2.1 speakers?
If windows vista 32bit only recognizes 3.2gb of ram, what is the optimal ram set up? 2x 1gb? 2x512mb? or just 4gb?


Thanks again for all the help.
Click to expand...

Wait for the Antec to go on sale. Frys.com is a good source. It's crazy to pay more than $50 for these units. Huge markup! Also use Pricewatch or Pricegrabber. NewEgg is no longer a cheap retailer. MWAVE has the Earthwatts for $79.

Why would you want to pay more $ for DDR2 800 that may not be compatible with the MB? Those HP RAMs work with four sticks at default BIOS settings and will be able to take your CPU to 3.33GHz without overclocking the RAM. What more do you want?

You can zero fill data in the old HDD and it will work like new.

18x/20x is a marketing ploy. For the highest burn quality (low PIE/PIF), stick with quality Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim media and burn up to 8x. NEC/Optiarc drives have excellent modded firmware and are very reliable. Go to CDFREAKS.COM if you want to get more ideas from other enthusiasts.

JEDEC defines the specs for DDR2 667 and 800 RAMs. If you want to run four sticks of memory, then you should look for high-quality JEDEC RAMs from reputable vendors like Crucial or Kingston.

C1E and EIST will automatically lower the CPU core speed and voltage when the CPU is idling or under lesser load.

A modern onboard audio is quite good. If you're an audiophile, then you'll know that good speakers are much more important than the electronic circuits. The major problem with PC audio is HUM/background noise. These are often caused by poor grounding/assembly or software driver.

4GB is best for overclocking since we are dealing with four identical modules.
 
In regards to your concerns with the PATA hard drives. The motherboard will most likely have at least one IDE slot. Or a cheap $10 investment in an ATA PCI card will ensure you get much more use out of those "older" drives.
 
Hello onlyCOpunk and Serpent,

Thanks again for all your advice, I will check out pricegrabber / pricewatch and start ordering components as soon as I get a paycheck.

Time to go hit the video forum to find a good 19" monitor 🙂

Thanks.
 
Use the IP35-E rewiew post if you need help with final assembly. There's a setup guide at the bottom of my 1st post. It should help with your build. The key is to start out with compatible RAM and resest CMOS before your 1st boot.

Good luck with the build. You have a 50% chance of hitting 3.2GHz overclock using that CPU/MB combo. That's just a tad slower than Intel's best dual core CPU for 40% of the cost.
 
Hey Serpent, I really appreciate the help. I just purchased the mobo/ram/psu, and as soon as I see my check hit I'll be purchasing the e4400, a harddrive, dvd-rom, and then I'll go pick up a case.

If you don't mind, I might be sending you a couple PM's if I run into any difficulty.

 
Hey thanks everyone for your help, I placed my order:

Intel Core 2 Duo E4500
ABIT IP35-E Intel P35 Chipset ATX
4x 1 GB PC2-5300 DDR2-667-DIMM MEM SBY
Corsair 520W SLI Certified Modular ATX Power Supply
GeForce 8600GTS 256MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16
Western Digital Caviar SE 160GB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s
SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD SATA Model SH-S203B
COOLER MASTER Centurion 5

Serpent, I respect your opinion about the power supplies, but I decided to go with the modular and I had an AmEx gift certificate I decided to use for it. They had also sold out of the 4400 at the two cheapest places and the 4500 was $5 more than the third cheapest place. I also went with the centurian case because it was $40 free shipping and I didn't want to wait for the solo to go on sale.

total price: $880 before rebates, $650 after.

When the rebates hit I'll get a new monitor or some speakers. Any suggestions on those?
 
I paid about $160 AR for the Acer 22" Al2216W. Good picture. I don't need super accurate color fidelity, so the TN panel is good enough for general use. Plenty of speed for fast action movies. Only problem is the high res screen. You'll need HD DVD to exploit the potential of the monitor. DVD looks great as long as you don't go into full screen (1680 x 1050).

Use the Abit IP35-E thread if you need help with the build...much better visibility. List all components on you profile so others can assist with the troubleshooting.
 
Ok, so the system is built and running great!

Thanks again for all your help.

Now for a few post-build questions.

Is this normal? My system when I turn it on will start up, all the fans whirl, and then it nothing. Fans stop moving, lights go out. 2 seconds later it boots up normally.

What could be causing that?

I'm trying to install windows 2007 enterprise on my system, I have a legit key code, however my company gave me a burnt CD to install it. It worked fine on my last system but it does not work on my current system, when I double click Setup.exe it looks like vista is working, it prompts me to allow and then it does nothing.

Any ideas? Think I should just download the demo online and see if that lets me enter the CD key or should I just request a new disc?

I've hit up the software forum for must-install apps, but I was wondering if anyone had any additional suggestions. So far the only thing installed is Virus protection and firefox.

Thanks again!
 
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