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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
Bull crap again.

Prices go down, people buy more because they have expendable income.

Instead of buying 1 TV, people buy one for every child.

Instead of not having children, or one child, couples have 2 or 3 children. What don't you understand that US couples are having less kids because everything is so expensive?

Deflation would have little to no effect on employment as people would buy more, spend more, buy in excess without credit and debt.

With inflation people sit at home watching TV, not spending any extra money because they have no extra money to spend.


That's the simpleton way of looking at it. You don't get to keep the wages at your present rates when everything else is falling also..




To quote myself from the France forms a new govt thread, where we argued this same nonsense.

You do! You believe deflation is good for regular folk (the debtors) and bad for the wealthy (the creditors)

This is exactly backwards! If I own your debt, the value of your debt increases continuously with deflation, meanwhile your wages will fall. You don't think you employer is going to want to pay you more every year, when he can fire you and then hire for less next year? What are typical raises? Inflation plus some %. If I is negative, then so is your raise.

So take your falling wages and try and repay my ever increasing debt note.. Even at a low interest I own your ass. Apply that to a fixed 30 yr mortgage. How expensive does that house payment look in 20 years with fixed payments and compounding wage decreases?

What are we in the middle of right now? A mortgage driven debt crisis where everyone is trying to save and pay down debt, not spend and take investment risks ( like building new factories and hiring workers)

Incentivizing sitting around and hoarding cash and silver is not going to bring back employment and prosperity. Cash needs to be put to work to get us out.


Look what was announced on Friday, the ECB, worried about deflation and stagnant growth are pledging to provide monetary stimulus to raise inflation expectations "as fast as possible"

FLORENCE Italy (Reuters) - Europe is not at risk of sliding into "full deflation" but the current rate of inflation is dangerously low, European Central Bank Vice President Vitor Constancio said on Saturday.

Many fear the euro zone, where annual inflation fell far short of the ECB's medium-term target in October, could be set for a Japanese-style lost decade of deflation and recession.

During a debate in central Italy, Constancio said he did not think "that in Europe there is the risk of falling into full deflation" because nominal salaries would have to fall in all member countries "and this cannot happen".

It was not immediately clear what he meant by "full deflation".

Constancio echoed a pledge made by ECB President Mario Draghi on Friday to take action to raise inflation, which ran at 0.4 percent in the single currency bloc last month.

"This has to be done with monetary policy," Constancio said when asked who should intervene to raise prices. "It is the ECB's responsibility."

But living with inflation so close to zero is dangerous in itself, Constancio said, because it makes it harder to repay public and private debt, and impedes economic growth.

He added that inflation measurement is often inaccurate and that if the reading is "close to zero, in reality it is already at minus one".

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/22/us-ecb-constancio-idUSKCN0J60FJ20141122
Perhaps MF can use his amazing credentials to apply to the ECB lest they be led by fools and heretics. This tight money, low growth, deflationary economic policy led by the Germans had worked brilliantly so far. Shame a rogue Keynesian is about to destroy all their progress...
 
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Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
That's the simpleton way of looking at it. You don't get to keep the wages at your present rates when everything else is falling also..

If all the prices are falling then whatever business you work for doesn't bring in as much money as they did before, so they can't afford to pay you as much as they did before. You lose your job, or you get a pay cut, etc, etc. It's not like everyone suddenly just gets wealthier because of deflation.

Justify this,

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...heat-sheet-middle-class-cant-afford/17730223/

7 things families can no longer afford to do.

Buy a new car
Retirement savings
Emergency savings
Pay off debt
Dental work
Take a vacation
Medical care

To yall that is justified right? So what if the middle class has crashed and burned.
 
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theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
If they keep voting for trickle down and "corporations are people" policies that make it so (or not voting against them), of course it's justified.

If democrats would stop killing babies and display "some" kind of morals and values I might vote for them.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
If democrats would stop killing babies and display "some" kind of morals and values I might vote for them.

Like I said, it's justified, it's what they voted for. They were OK giving up all those things in a failed attempt to ban abortion. They should have to live with the consequences and stop whining.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Like I said, it's justified, it's what they voted for. They were OK giving up all those things in a failed attempt to ban abortion. They should have to live with the consequences and stop whining.

And when democrats had control of both houses shortly after obama was elected?

Also, it is the presidents job to negotiate trade treaties. Renegotiate free trade with China. Tell apple, dell, asus, google,,,, if they want to sell their tech toys here, they have to be made here.

Boom, instant recovery.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
And when democrats had control of both houses shortly after obama was elected?

Also, it is the presidents job to negotiate trade treaties. Renegotiate free trade with China. Tell apple, dell, asus, google,,,, if they want to sell their tech toys here, they have to be made here.

Boom, instant recovery.

Nice, sounds like you have found every reason to vote to continue voting for the trickle down crowd. Which is fine, but whatever happens to you as a result is justified, it's what you voted for. Stop whining and enjoy the fruits of your votes.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,234
55,785
136
Justify this,

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...heat-sheet-middle-class-cant-afford/17730223/

7 things families can no longer afford to do.

Buy a new car
Retirement savings
Emergency savings
Pay off debt
Dental work
Take a vacation
Medical care

To yall that is justified right? So what if the middle class has crashed and burned.

Why do you refuse to answer posts that show that you're wrong and instead just either restate your disproven point or move onto an irrelevant tangent?
 

mf0611

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2014
24
0
0
LOL. If you have a doctorate in finance and think consumption shrinks economies you got it from devry.

Your YouTube doctorate aside, you're a clueless, pontificating dumbass.

If you don’t understand that consumption shrinks economies then you don’t understand basic economics.

I can explain how consumption shrinks economies, but I am convinced you would not understand it at this time in your present level of economics knowledge. You don’t have the tools needed to understand it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,234
55,785
136
If you don’t understand that consumption shrinks economies then you don’t understand basic economics.

I can explain how consumption shrinks economies, but I am convinced you would not understand it at this time in your present level of economics knowledge. You don’t have the tools needed to understand it.

Haha, ok guy. I'll go grab a ph.d at the university of Phoenix like you did. I'm sure it is covered somewhere in there right after they go over which end of the pencil to write with.

The rest of us that are dealing with real economics will continue to laugh at you.
 

mf0611

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2014
24
0
0
Haha, ok guy. I'll go grab a ph.d at the university of Phoenix like you did. I'm sure it is covered somewhere in there right after they go over which end of the pencil to write with.

The rest of us that are dealing with real economics will continue to laugh at you.

You aren’t dealing with “real” economics. That is one of the reasons you lack the intellectual tools to be able to meet my arguments head on. It is why you devolve to childish insults that really only display your own self-image.

You tell me people are laughing at me only because that is your own fear of people laughing at you. It is why you follow and believe whatever you think the most popular beliefs are at any given time. If you think the consensus moves towards a different belief, then you’ll just follow that without question.

You are economically illiterate at this moment in time, but with enough reading and studying, you just might be able to stand toe to toe with people who understand at least basic economics.

Please don’t believe that you devolving to insults isn't just a case of you covering up your lack of knowledge and inability to disprove what I said wrong. You said I have not fully explained how or why consumption shrinks economies, and you’re right about that, I did not, here, again.

But you immediately knee jerked against it, couldn't believe it, and that is when you showed you could not actually prove your claim of the opposite. You showed it is a belief of yours that you just adopted without question. You never bothered to actually take the time to learn how your belief even came about. It is not your novel idea.

Once you accept the truth that you need to learn more, after laughing awkwardly to deal with your inferiority complex or whatever psychological baggage you need to dump on this forum, then you’ll be able to avoid making arguments that have already been debunked every which way from sideways.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,234
55,785
136
You aren’t dealing with “real” economics. That is one of the reasons you lack the intellectual tools to be able to meet my arguments head on. It is why you devolve to childish insults that really only display your own self-image.

You tell me people are laughing at me only because that is your own fear of people laughing at you. It is why you follow and believe whatever you think the most popular beliefs are at any given time. If you think the consensus moves towards a different belief, then you’ll just follow that without question.

You are economically illiterate at this moment in time, but with enough reading and studying, you just might be able to stand toe to toe with people who understand at least basic economics.

Please don’t believe that you devolving to insults isn't just a case of you covering up your lack of knowledge and inability to disprove what I said wrong. You said I have not fully explained how or why consumption shrinks economies, and you’re right about that, I did not, here, again.

But you immediately knee jerked against it, couldn't believe it, and that is when you showed you could not actually prove your claim of the opposite. You showed it is a belief of yours that you just adopted without question. You never bothered to actually take the time to learn how your belief even came about. It is not your novel idea.

Once you accept the truth that you need to learn more, after laughing awkwardly to deal with your inferiority complex or whatever psychological baggage you need to dump on this forum, then you’ll be able to avoid making arguments that have already been debunked every which way from sideways.

do you ever read Andrew Sullivan's blog? This would be nominated for a poseur award.

I have no need to disprove your bullshit, as you've provided no evidence for a single thing you have said. You think I'm making fun of you because I'm scared inside? Lol. I'm making fun of you because you're acting like an idiot.

If you understood basic economics you would never have tried to make a number of the arguments you made. If you want to continue making a fool of yourself please feel free. I will continue to stick with real economics.

I gave you some advice before that you might want to quit while you were less far behind. maybe reconsider it?
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
Justify this,

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...heat-sheet-middle-class-cant-afford/17730223/

7 things families can no longer afford to do.

Buy a new car
Retirement savings
Emergency savings
Pay off debt
Dental work
Take a vacation
Medical care

To yall that is justified right? So what if the middle class has crashed and burned.

Did you read that article? Its pretty much sensationalist garbage.

"Median-income families in only one major city [Washington DC] can afford the average price Americans are paying for new cars and trucks nowadays." As of 2013, new cars are priced at $32,086, according to the study. Mike Sante, Interest.com's managing editor reminds us, "just because you can manage the monthly payment doesn't mean you should let a $30,000 or $40,000 ride gobble up all such a huge share of your paycheck."

Seriously? Only families in DC can afford cars. I've never paid anywhere close to $32K for a car in my life. A Focus loaded with every available option would maybe top out at $32k.

Aside from that tabloid article you linked, is income equality and wage growth lacking? Obviously, this isn't news.

Is deflation the cure for that? Read the article again, look at the debt people have taken on and answer for yourself if the soln to their problems is to force wages to drop further and value of debt rise.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
If they keep voting for trickle down and "corporations are people" policies that make it so (or not voting against them), of course it's justified.

People including our members have been deluded into believing this bipartizan shell game and almost always vote against THEMSELVES thinking they belong to a group/demographic they are not in.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
And when democrats had control of both houses shortly after obama was elected?

Also, it is the presidents job to negotiate trade treaties. Renegotiate free trade with China. Tell apple, dell, asus, google,,,, if they want to sell their tech toys here, they have to be made here.

Boom, instant recovery.

What fantasy land are you living in ?
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
You're doing it again.

So you have no way to justify this "inflation is good" garbage you spew?


Did you read that article? Its pretty much sensationalist garbage.

Seriously? Only families in DC can afford cars. I've never paid anywhere close to $32K for a car in my life. A Focus loaded with every available option would maybe top out at $32k.

Aside from that tabloid article you linked, is income equality and wage growth lacking? Obviously, this isn't news.

Is deflation the cure for that? Read the article again, look at the debt people have taken on and answer for yourself if the soln to their problems is to force wages to drop further and value of debt rise.

If inflation is good and we are on the way to recovery, why do we have a record number of people on welfare?

But then again, it is not like the government is being honest with the real numbers.

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/354-percent-109631000-welfare

The Census Bureau has not yet reported how many were on welfare in 2013 or the first two quarters of 2014.
 
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mf0611

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2014
24
0
0
do you ever read Andrew Sullivan's blog? This would be nominated for a poseur award.

I have no need to disprove your bullshit, as you've provided no evidence for a single thing you have said. You think I'm making fun of you because I'm scared inside? Lol. I'm making fun of you because you're acting like an idiot.

If you understood basic economics you would never have tried to make a number of the arguments you made. If you want to continue making a fool of yourself please feel free. I will continue to stick with real economics.

I gave you some advice before that you might want to quit while you were less far behind. maybe reconsider it?

As I said above, you lack the required intellectual tools to be able to understand it.

There are lots of idiots in the world and there are lots of idiotic things said. Why go out of your way to call me an idiot on this particular issue? It is because you’re scared out of your mind about this particular issue, that’s why.

It is not my fault you are acting the way you do, so don’t pin it on me. If you understood basic economics then you would not have claimed that the statement “consumption shrinks economies” is false. You would have claimed that it is correct.

You WANT to believe that your spending money on consumption is what makes the economy go round. It is to distract yourself from the uncomfortable truth that when you spend money on your own consumption, that it is the producer of the good that made the economy grow, not you. In your economic life of working, earning money and consuming, you have not yet intellectually matured enough to learn how productive activity works. You see yourself spending money, and then the world is essentially opaque beyond that.

The spending that grows economies is spending money on capital goods and labor, and other expenditures made for the purpose of making subsequent sales, which is composed of either more capital goods sales, or consumer goods sales.

If you decide to spend money on your own consumption, then you did NOT invest that money in labor or capital goods. I am going to assume you are not so oblivious as to not grasp that triviality.

Now, it is also trivial that it would be impossible if money were ONLY spent on labor and capital. At some point, in order to make such productive expenditures worthwhile, consumer spending MUST occur. But, and this is an important but, just because consumer spending is needed to ultimately make even capital goods sellers earn profits, it does not in any way imply or require that consumer spending grows economies. Consumption always shrinks economies. But, and this is also another important but, shrinking an economy via consumption is NECESSARY for human life and well being to exist. So contrary to your childish interpretation of what I wrote, that this somehow means consumption is an evil, or a bad thing, what it actually the case is that while consumption does shrink economies, it does not mean consumption is an evil. Consumption is necessary for human life and happiness.

You don’t understand basic economics. I am more intelligent than you in this subject, because not only do I understand the basics, and teach the basics, but I read the history of economic thought. That is what makes myself and many other “Austrians” intellectually superior to you. We don’t even need university or college education to be more knowledgeable in economics than you. You clearly wasted your money.

If you understood basic economics you would never have tried to make a number of the arguments you made. If you want to continue making a fool of yourself please feel free. I will continue to stick with real economics.
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
That consumption shrinks economies, contrary to your claim, is based on economic theory.

So just like any theory, it cannot be proved or disproved. It can be supported but not proved. Otherwise, it would be a law.

(just pointing that out and in no way do I know enough to agree or disagree with any of it).
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
So just like any theory, it cannot be proved or disproved. It can be supported but not proved. Otherwise, it would be a law.

Can not be proved or disproved? lulz, you're funny.

1950s and 1960s - Low inflation, plenty of consumption, best time in the nations history.

1970s - Nixon took us off the gold standard, inflation kicked in, buying power has been decreasing ever since.

2010s - Record number of people on welfare, bubbles pooping every few X number of years, middle class being driven into poverty, home ownership at 19 year low.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Can not be proved or disproved? lulz, you're funny.

1950s and 1960s - Low inflation, plenty of consumption, best time in the nations history.

1970s - Nixon took us off the gold standard, inflation kicked in, buying power has been decreasing ever since.

2010s - Record number of people on welfare, bubbles pooping every few X number of years, middle class being driven into poverty, home ownership at 19 year low.

I said it could be supported but not fully proved. It would be economic LAW if it were fully provable. Any theory has not been proved and at the time of use, cannot be proved or disproved. Look up the definition of theory. If a theory is proved, it becomes law. If a theory becomes disproved, it disappears.

http://www.differencebetween.net/mi...cellaneous/difference-between-theory-and-law/

1.A law is an observation; a theory is the explanation of that observation.
2.A theory requires experimentation under various conditions. A law has no such requirements.
3.A theory may become obsolete with time. This is not the case with a law.
4.A theory can be replaced by another better theory; however, this never happens with a law.
5.A theory may be strong or weak according to the amount of evidence available. A law is a universally observable fact.

Now, back to economic theory...which I know nothing about....already in progress.
 
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theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
Can not be proved or disproved? lulz, you're funny.

1950s and 1960s - Low inflation, plenty of consumption, best time in the nations history.

1970s - Nixon took us off the gold standard, inflation kicked in, buying power has been decreasing ever since.

2010s - Record number of people on welfare, bubbles pooping every few X number of years, middle class being driven into poverty, home ownership at 19 year low.

Look at top marginal tax rates over that time. Wealth concentration at the top is no accident.