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SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
I have to say, I love what I'm seeing in the Middle East. For the first time in my life, I can honestly say that I'm hopeful for the future there. By the time I'm old and gray, I'll bet we'll see a prosperous and safe group of nations there, with a quality of life that meets or exceeds that of Europe.

I really like NATO's strategy in Libya. Gadhafi is already calling for a cease fire. He can't handle losing the only power he has - a corrupt military that is still listening to him, probably with a gun to their heads.

Now that other nations can see what will happen to them if they try this crap, the momentum is on the side of the protesters.

I really hope that in a month or so we can look back upon the dark ages where the people in that area were exploited and had no freedom. :thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
It's definitely a move in the right direction but let's not jump to conclusions. It's going to take time IF they win. Think about post-Soviet Russia. It hasn't exactly gone according to plan.

Remember that a lot of this is about economic issues. Democracies do a better job with economic issues but it's never a silver bullet as we see in our own country.
 
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Imdmn04

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2002
2,566
6
81
I don't believe in over-night democracies.

The system needs to be slowly crafted overtime. What makes you think the rebels are not going to pull the same shit all over again? Power changes people, people may rebel for a good cause, but once they get there, it is very possible that they become corrupt as well.
 
wuliheron

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
I would like to thank all the little people that made this possible including my mom and dad.
 
Fern

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Dang OP, you're mighty optimistic.

I'm not sure we even know who these 'rebels' are, or what kind of place Libyia may be after Qaddafy.

Fern
 
manimal

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,559
8
0
Fern said:
Dang OP, you're mighty optimistic.

I'm not sure we even know who these 'rebels' are, or what kind of place Libyia may be after Qaddafy.

Fern
Click to expand...

lets give them the same chance the US had....


lets not look at that part of the world trough western eyes though since thats the fastest way to disappointment....
 
P

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Often war and unrest just leads to revolution and mistreatment of the people and women. Chaos is not an imporvement. I think western interlopers need to stay out of the middle east so-called revolution. It is hard to say whether it is a peace movement or just a shifting from one dictator to another.
 
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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
The ME is screwed. What you're seeing is the first throes of what's going to be a huge problem in the next 50 years. As the oil runs out and the water gets depleted the wealth they have been using to buy food and water will run out. The huge populations they have cannot be supported by their own infrastructures as they are arid landscapes with few chances of ag. They are net importers of food.

The despots and kings have not reinvested their billions in education to produce anything meaningful in industry or intellectual property or agriculture. Instead they have bought London houses, exotic cars and building boondoggles. As the populations turn on them they will likewise turn on the west.

The ME future is grim.
 
Doppel

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
LegendKiller said:
The ME is screwed. What you're seeing is the first throes of what's going to be a huge problem in the next 50 years. As the oil runs out and the water gets depleted the wealth they have been using to buy food and water will run out. The huge populations they have cannot be supported by their own infrastructures as they are arid landscapes with few chances of ag. They are net importers of food.

The despots and kings have not reinvested their billions in education to produce anything meaningful in industry or intellectual property or agriculture. Instead they have bought London houses, exotic cars and building boondoggles. As the populations turn on them they will likewise turn on the west.

The ME future is grim.
Click to expand...
Democratic tendencies there are hopeful but I have long thought what you've said here. When the oil runs out--and nobody knows when but it will have to happen sometime--or even as the oil money starts to run low these pitifully backwards economies will become even more so. If not for oil money they'd all look like they did did 50 years ago, people living in tents and riding to work on camels.
 
bamacre

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Fern said:
Dang OP, you're mighty optimistic.
Click to expand...

Yes, and very naive.

LegendKiller said:
The ME is screwed. What you're seeing is the first throes of what's going to be a huge problem in the next 50 years. As the oil runs out and the water gets depleted the wealth they have been using to buy food and water will run out. The huge populations they have cannot be supported by their own infrastructures as they are arid landscapes with few chances of ag. They are net importers of food.

The despots and kings have not reinvested their billions in education to produce anything meaningful in industry or intellectual property or agriculture. Instead they have bought London houses, exotic cars and building boondoggles. As the populations turn on them they will likewise turn on the west.

The ME future is grim.
Click to expand...

This is a much more accurate picture.
 
R

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
LegendKiller said:
The ME is screwed. What you're seeing is the first throes of what's going to be a huge problem in the next 50 years. As the oil runs out and the water gets depleted the wealth they have been using to buy food and water will run out. The huge populations they have cannot be supported by their own infrastructures as they are arid landscapes with few chances of ag. They are net importers of food.

The despots and kings have not reinvested their billions in education to produce anything meaningful in industry or intellectual property or agriculture. Instead they have bought London houses, exotic cars and building boondoggles. As the populations turn on them they will likewise turn on the west.

The ME future is grim.
Click to expand...

Aren't most of those problems caused by the fact that the ME is largely run by a handful of individuals looking for nothing more than a way to fatten their own bank accounts? Democracy in the Middle East will have its own problems, but if it succeeds before the oil runs out, then the people there might be able to turn the region into something that serves everyone longer term.
 
S

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
All these people saying the oil is going to run out. We're always going to have a reserve supply of the stuff, the price will go way up is all. Not only that, but there will always be a use for crude oil (plastics, petrochemicals, etc.).
 
bamacre

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Rainsford said:
Aren't most of those problems caused by the fact that the ME is largely run by a handful of individuals looking for nothing more than a way to fatten their own bank accounts? Democracy in the Middle East will have its own problems, but if it succeeds before the oil runs out, then the people there might be able to turn the region into something that serves everyone longer term.
Click to expand...

Well, they can't solve their problems unless they really understand what their problems are. And their problems are deeper than corrupt dictators.
 
GTaudiophile

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
If it's this "good" in the ME with all the oil revenues, one must wonder how great it will be when the wells go dry.
 
3chordcharlie

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Infohawk said:
It's definitely a move in the right direction but let's not jump to conclusions. It's going to take time IF they win. Think about post-Soviet Russia. It hasn't exactly gone according to plan.

Remember that a lot of this is about economic issues. Democracies do a better job with economic issues but it's never a silver bullet as we see in our own country.
Click to expand...

Even if we're being optimistic, think how long it took France or the USA to get from booting out their King to being a relatively proper country.
 
Nintendesert

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
Always hold out hope. This has been our goal since 9/11. Propping up these dictators in the middle east hasn't made us more safe. So now we'll try another approach, we'll help make them as inept and bureaucratic as we are by helping them all form democracies. They'll have too much bickering about policy to be of a threat to anyone else.
 
Murloc

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
65
91
OP is too optimistic.
You can't have a stable democracy if the people who live there never experienced it for years.
Next guy who gets elected, will start creating laws to allow him to stay there forever.
Hell, even in europe you can do that, although it's in Italy. Silvio Berlusconi is much more subtle than the north african dictators though, and is an able manipulator. He doesn't destroy the democracy but manipulates the people and hurts it with small laws that are not as outrageus as modifying the constitution. He's been escaping trials for all his crimes his whole life, and look where he is now. A fossil at the head of the state.

Also the dark ages you talk about aren't dark at all.
You could live your life, go abroad, study abroad, live where you wanted to, emigrate, choose your job etc.
In petrol places in the middle east people isn't exploited.
There are poor people of course, but a democracy won't make it easier for them.
 
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