Italy's Populists Promising To Kick Out 500K Migrants

[cytg111]

So, because this is P&N and we love debate, I will pose a question. Given the current humanitarian crisis with an ongoing civil war in Libya, and the "strain" of migrants on Italy's economy, at what point does it become more feasible for Italy to annex Libya, declare it an overseas territory, install a functioning government, and deport all Libyan migrants (since the fall of Qaddafi) back to Libya? When does that become the more humanitarian solution, given the lives that would be likely lost in the attempt to gain control?

At what point should the EU consider similar action in Syria? What implications would that have for Russia, Iran, etc.?

I dont know what the right answer is. I do know if Italy, Germany, GB and the rest of the EU keeps taking refugees in, the far right will grow as a counterweight until Bannon and Putins wet dreams come true and we fall apart at the seams. I have already lost(temporarily i can hope) one very good friend to the alt-right, he is just lost, and its more common than you think. We need intelligent solutions to our problems not the skinhead rhetoric of the alt right.
To the point, sarcastic or not; I wouldnt annex anything, I might put money down for a 50 year lease though.

 

[hal2kilo]

You getting hard, Mister whitey?

I was going to ask him the same thing. He's seems really excited to keep people trapped in a life of misery.

 

[Thebobo]

lets see we start the wars that end up with so many refugees than run away.

God bless the USA for fucking up some many lives.

 

[Starbuck1975]

So, because this is P&N and we love debate, I will pose a question. Given the current humanitarian crisis with an ongoing civil war in Libya, and the "strain" of migrants on Italy's economy, at what point does it become more feasible for Italy to annex Libya, declare it an overseas territory, install a functioning government, and deport all Libyan migrants (since the fall of Qaddafi) back to Libya? When does that become the more humanitarian solution, given the lives that would be likely lost in the attempt to gain control?

At what point should the EU consider similar action in Syria? What implications would that have for Russia, Iran, etc.?

This is the tough question no one wants to answer.

I’ll raise the stakes. Global warming is going to exasperate this problem even more as habitable zones decrease and drought leads to widespread famine. Syria is just a taste of what is to come.

Also, identity is a strong political force. There has to be a solution that allows western nations to be both humanitarian and retain their cultural identities. Simply absorbing refugees will inevitably lead to the rise of nationalism. Tribalism and identity is a powerful and exploitable political force.

However, western nations do not have a credible record for installing functioning governments in absence of total military conquest.

 

[Jhhnn]

So, because this is P&N and we love debate, I will pose a question. Given the current humanitarian crisis with an ongoing civil war in Libya, and the "strain" of migrants on Italy's economy, at what point does it become more feasible for Italy to annex Libya, declare it an overseas territory, install a functioning government, and deport all Libyan migrants (since the fall of Qaddafi) back to Libya? When does that become the more humanitarian solution, given the lives that would be likely lost in the attempt to gain control?

At what point should the EU consider similar action in Syria? What implications would that have for Russia, Iran, etc.?

You really don't understand. The migrants aren't Libyans but rather people from sub-saharan africa. Lack of govt control lets them use Libya as a transit corridor.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2018/03/22...-saharan-africans-moved-to-europe-since-2010/

It's an entirely different thing than Syria. It was the US invasion of Iraq & subsequent events that set off that migration.

 

[dainthomas]

The new government of Italy is promising to kick out 500,000 migrants. The people of Italy don't want them in the country and they are costing the country too much tax dollars. They have no right to be there. This is also a big screw you to the EU who is allowing these refugees into Europe. Hopefully other countries follow Italy and stand up for themselves.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...declare-want-kick-half-million-migrants-edge/

Isn't Italy below replacement level for reproduction (like Japan, Russia etc). You'd think they would want migrants, as a shrinking population is a fantastic way to crater your economy.

 

[Herr Kutz]

Italy should ask if Japan wants them.

 

[pmv]

I honestly don't know what the solution is with regard to migration/refugees (the two are, or should be, different things, but they have unquestionably gotten mixed up, and in any case they can be a continuum - extreme poverty can be as dangerous as war).

I don't even have a good grasp of the facts - how many of those coming across the Med are escaping full-on war zones or failed states, versus those from countries that simply have difficulty economically supporting their (increasing) population? I don't know. (And African countries' population continues to grow, even as that in most of the world has leveled off)

It seems bad to not be sure about something in a context where it's such a polarising issue.

And all the solutions that do seem at least logical and worth trying, turn out to be politically impossible.

E.g. a proper system for accepting refugees and immigrants at an EU level rather than leaving it to each nation state individually, seems just common sense. The present situation leaves some countries like Italy dealing with a huge share of the problem, while the nations of Eastern Europe, and my own, carefully, and cynically, opt out of having anything to do with it. It also leads to refugees wandering across EU borders trying claiming asylum in different countries in the hope one says yes, which is not a sensible way to do it.

But the EU seems utterly unable to set up such a system. Because it's stuck in this bizarre half-way-house between being a single nation and a collection of independent states but with a common currency and no borders. I still maintain the EU is an utterly peculiar entity that has repeated crises built in to its very nature. (Also,like the US it has a constitution that is both hard to change and flawed, but unlike the US that constitution goes into a lot of specific detail at the level of policy, building neo-liberalism into the heart of the creature)

Dealing with the 'push factors' that drive people out of their countries of origin seems the only real solution, but nobody seems to have a clue how to achieve that either.

Also, as well as the Iraq fiasco, the destabilising of Libya (thanks Cameron, Sarkozy, and whoever it was who was running Italy at the time - oh, and Hillary, cheering it on from the sidelines) seems to have helped make the problem worse. Apparently there are now slave markets operating in that country. Another great success for Western intervention.

It's just a utter mess. I favour a very liberal immigration policy for the UK. Though more for non-EU people than EU migrants (the way I see it, those escaping the Eurozone's messed-up economic policies have far more power to stay at home and fix their own problems than do those fleeing actual wars - I don't see why the UK should be a safety valve for the failings of EU politicians...plus Britain didn't build its empire in Europe). I don't think absorbing a lot more migrants is unmanageable if only we had a government capable of managing anything (if anything, my fear is many of the African migrants, from what I've seen, are wanna-be entrepreneurs and small businessmen, and hence potential Conservative voters)

But it's obvious that a large majority of the population disagree, and every time there's another ISIS outrage attitudes harden (which I presume is part of the point of those attacks)

 

[ivwshane]

I've got no issues with immigration, but what's happening in the Mediterranean is a problem.

Yes and the problem is these people don't have their own safe country to live in.

The options are; take them in and integrate them into the host's society (something humans have been doing for thousands of years)
Or make their country safe again

Both have their pros and cons. Hell, we could even do both!

 

[Vic]

Good for the Italians. Why should the people be expected to support the migrants when so many of the natives are steuggling? (as is the Italian economy)

Because it doesn't work that way. Even if all the migrants were kicked out, the struggling natives would still be struggling.

 

[Vic]

That’s not how it works, but not surprising that is your perception of service, or that you want other people to fight your fight for you.

The way it works is that red state families use the military as a way to kick their adult kids out of the house on the government dime, and then they pretend their motive was patriotism.

 

[Vic]

Considering italy's aging population and lowering native population growth, it would seem that an influx of immigrants would be a good thing for a struggling economy and not a bad thing. Or are you of the opinion that as people get older and their productivity go down, the economy improves?

At the core of the so-called 'conservative brain defect' is the patently false belief that everything, literally everything, is a zero sum game. That equal rights for others somehow means less rights for them. That immigrants can only dilute a nation's wealth,etc. It's horseshit, but they believe it because it's intuitive on the microeconomic level, and it's what they're told to believe.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The way it works is that red state families use the military as a way to kick their adult kids out of the house on the government dime, and then they pretend their motive was patriotism.

Yes, that’s exactly the way it works. I suspect if a true fascist threat emerged, we wouldn’t be seeing you on the front lines either

 

[Jhhnn]

The way it works is that red state families use the military as a way to kick their adult kids out of the house on the government dime, and then they pretend their motive was patriotism.

Aww, c'mon. Joining the military is an advancement path for a lot of young Americans so inclined. It's a way to get ahead if you don't get killed or maimed in the process.

 

[glenn1]

Aww, c'mon. Joining the military is an advancement path for a lot of young Americans so inclined. It's a way to get ahead if you don't get killed or maimed in the process.

It's a national service path as well. Not a whole lot of 18 year olds have the skills or education to "do something for the good of the country" as a federal employee or if they did it would be doing something like cleaning bathrooms at a national park. Enlisting in the military is quite literally the most "work your way up" way of providing that service, and Uncle Sam also deems it in the nation's benefit to pay for the education of those 18 year olds to make them smarter (and presumably easily trainable and thus eventually more lethal) soldiers. It's a mutually beneficial relationship in most cases.

 

[Vic]

Yes, that’s exactly the way it works. I suspect if a true fascist threat emerged, we wouldn’t be seeing you on the front lines either

Pointless fear-based shaming a la McCartyism. I expect better from you. Meanwhile, the true fascist threat is from within, particularly from the crowd who believes that cashing government paychecks makes them superior to their fellow American citizens.

 

[Vic]

Aww, c'mon. Joining the military is an advancement path for a lot of young Americans so inclined. It's a way to get ahead if you don't get killed or maimed in the process.

It's like government paid college, except with corrupt defense contractors.

 

[Vic]

It's a national service path as well. Not a whole lot of 18 year olds have the skills or education to "do something for the good of the country" as a federal employee or if they did it would be doing something like cleaning bathrooms at a national park. Enlisting in the military is quite literally the most "work your way up" way of providing that service, and Uncle Sam also deems it in the nation's benefit to pay for the education of those 18 year olds to make them smarter (and presumably easily trainable and thus eventually more lethal) soldiers. It's a mutually beneficial relationship in most cases.

"Federal Service guarantees citizenship! Would you like to know more?"

 

[Starbuck1975]

Pointless fear-based shaming a la McCartyism. I expect better from you. Meanwhile, the true fascist threat is from within, particularly from the crowd who believes that cashing government paychecks makes them superior to their fellow American citizens.

If the fascist threat is truly from within, perhaps you should be on the streets fighting it instead of pissing on the people who will step up to defeat it.

 

[Vic]

If the fascist threat is truly from within, perhaps you should be on the streets fighting it instead of pissing on the people who will step up to defeat it.

If and when our country actually faces a genuine threat, I will be among the first to step up to defeat it.
Meanwhile, government service doesn't elevate anyone above criticism and accountability.

 

[ivwshane]

Yes, that’s exactly the way it works. I suspect if a true fascist threat emerged, we wouldn’t be seeing you on the front lines either

If you need an army to fight fascism, its no longer a threat, its a reality. Fascism doesn't happen by a quick and obvious invasion, it happens when a country, collectively, turns a blind eye to things like humanitarian issues, destroying or delegitimizing the press and tearing down long standing institutions.

 

[thilanliyan]

Isn't Italy below replacement level for reproduction (like Japan, Russia etc). You'd think they would want migrants, as a shrinking population is a fantastic way to crater your economy.

They don't want people from "sh!t-hole" countries...Norweigans on the other hand...come on in!!!!!! 😀

 

[ivwshane]

If the fascist threat is truly from within, perhaps you should be on the streets fighting it instead of pissing on the people who will step up to defeat it.

Step up to defeat it? You mean enable it. As you pointed out, the military consists of mostly people from red states. You know, states controlled by Republicans who elected our current traitor in chief, who support such policies as removing children from their parents and putting them in detention centers.

Both sides though, right?

 

[Victorian Gray]

Ah the Australian model....

Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[KMFJD]

Out of sight, out of mind.

Brutally effective