It used to be ok...

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FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
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266
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None of those things were ever okay

True enough. But during early time periods, there were things done that were ok by the standards of that time. Yes, we can (and should) look back and say that they weren't ok, but we have to look at things realistically. It doesn't mean that we have to like it. It doesn't mean that we can't look back and wonder, 'what the eff were they thinking?' glad we don't think that way anymore.

This is where we get in trouble and have people suggest stupid things like banning books written 100 years ago because the author used the N word. They used it back then. Glad it's highly discouraged now, but it's always dangerous to tamper with history because it offends somebody.
 
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Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,433
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This is where we get in trouble and have people suggest stupid things like banning books written 100 years ago because the author used the N word. They used it back then. Glad it's highly discouraged now, but it's always dangerous to tamper with history because it offends somebody.

The descendant of Laura Ingalls Wilder, (the author of the books that were the basis for the TV show "Little House on the Prairie," recently had an award posthumously awarded to Laura rescinded, because one of the books contained the passage: "When we first moved here, there were no people, only Indians".

That's one extreme.

But sometimes, people look to history for guidance. Maybe that lady did.
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
True enough. But during early time periods, there were things done that were ok by the standards of that time. Yes, we can (and should) look back and say that they weren't ok, but we have to look at things realistically. It doesn't mean that we have to like it. It doesn't mean that we can't look back and wonder, 'what the eff were they thinking?' glad we don't think that way anymore.

No, that's the point. They were never okay, even by "the standards of that time". Slavery was never okay, spousal abuse was never okay, child labor was never okay. There exists a clear historical record of people that expressed moral outrage at the time. There exists a clear historical record that the founding fathers knew that owning slaves was an abomination. The fact that they were legal and society permitted them does not change this. As an analog, locking children in cages today, allowing them to starve and die today is a moral outrage and also legal and socially permitted. If some future society looks back on these atrocities and believes they were "okay by the standards of that time" they will be just as wrong.

Nikhil Pal Singh has discussed this extensively, and cited the historical record. The idea that atrocities like slavery were ever considered to be okay is deeply corrosive and cannot be tolerated.

This is where we get in trouble and have people suggest stupid things like banning books written 100 years ago because the author used the N word. They used it back then. Glad it's highly discouraged now, but it's always dangerous to tamper with history because it offends somebody.

That is a completely different issue. For one thing, that word is one of the most powerful symbolic reminders of what this country did to black people. I've seen scholars that I respect suggest that the historical value of Twain's works are not worth exposing the reader to that word.
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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True enough. But during early time periods, there were things done that were ok by the standards of that time. Yes, we can (and should) look back and say that they weren't ok, but we have to look at things realistically. It doesn't mean that we have to like it. It doesn't mean that we can't look back and wonder, 'what the eff were they thinking?' glad we don't think that way anymore.

This is where we get in trouble and have people suggest stupid things like banning books written 100 years ago because the author used the N word. They used it back then. Glad it's highly discouraged now, but it's always dangerous to tamper with history because it offends somebody.
I am sorry but that sounds like a pile of manure that you are trying to shove up our asses!!

I could find no written proof online where it was ever "OK" to sell a child!! Every example I found had to do with legal apotion or the courts were involved in allowing the raising of child by someone other than the birth parents!!
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
I'm pro-everyone learn to mind their own fucking business.

It's a pretty sad existence, when your life is so meaningless, that you can only find validation by injecting yourself into the lives of strangers.

View attachment 14015

The deliberate and intentional death of innocent humans, at the hands of their parents no less, should rightly be everyone's business.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,041
136
I am sorry but that sounds like a pile of manure that you are trying to shove up our asses!!

I could find no written proof online where it was ever "OK" to sell a child!! Every example I found had to do with legal apotion or the courts were involved in allowing the raising of child by someone other than the birth parents!!
Don't forget about the slavery era.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Don't forget about the slavery era.
That has nothing to do with as some would say white babys born of priveledge!
We all acknowledge that during the days of slavery all sorts of hideous things were done to the slaves!
using slaves as an example that it was Ok to sell babies when in actuality slaves were not free people and were considered property thus your arguments hold no water other than to point out the horrors of slavery!
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
They didn't care too much, one was whipped to death for killing a sheep. Not a small fortune to the slave owners compared to the triple cost of using hired labor.

The point is that people didn't buy slaves to kill them. The object of slavery was not to kill slaves. They were deprived necessarily of their liberty, not their life.

The targets of abortion are deprived of both, necessarily.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,695
31,043
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Of course we wouldn't be satisfied with it. We'd prefer to outlaw it wherever it rears its head, as it is regarded as the worst example of cruelty and butchery the nation has ever countenanced.

However, as a practical matter, I don't see that happening soon, for the same reason I don't see the opposite, an enshrinement of Roe's standards into federal law, happening soon.

lol. this guy forgot about slavery.

but save the fetus....and force it into welfare!

your jesus weeps at your ignorance.
 
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Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
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The deliberate and intentional death of innocent humans, at the hands of their parents no less, should rightly be everyone's business.

The only human(s) involved in an abortion, are the pregnant chick and her doctor.
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
The only human(s) involved in an abortion, are the pregnant chick and her doctor.

Biologists, even those who consider themselves very pro-choice, disagree.

  • 2,899 American adults were surveyed and asked to select the group most qualified to answer the question of when a human’s life begins. The majority selected biologists (81%).
  • A sample of 5,502 biologists from 1,058 academic institutions assessed statements representing the biological view ‘a human’s life begins at fertilization’.
  • Each of the three statements representing that view was affirmed by a consensus of biologists (75-91%). The participants were separated into 60 groups and each statement was affirmed by a consensus of each group, including biologists that identified as very pro-choice (69-90%), very pro-life (92-97%), very liberal (70-91%), very conservative (94-96%), strong Democrats (74-91%), and strong Republicans (89-94%). Overall, 95% of all biologists affirmed the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization (5212 out of 5502).
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,433
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Biologists, even those who consider themselves very pro-choice, disagree.

  • 2,899 American adults were surveyed and asked to select the group most qualified to answer the question of when a human’s life begins. The majority selected biologists (81%).
  • A sample of 5,502 biologists from 1,058 academic institutions assessed statements representing the biological view ‘a human’s life begins at fertilization’.
  • Each of the three statements representing that view was affirmed by a consensus of biologists (75-91%). The participants were separated into 60 groups and each statement was affirmed by a consensus of each group, including biologists that identified as very pro-choice (69-90%), very pro-life (92-97%), very liberal (70-91%), very conservative (94-96%), strong Democrats (74-91%), and strong Republicans (89-94%). Overall, 95% of all biologists affirmed the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization (5212 out of 5502).
You trying to say that all those people are in the room when the girl has her legs in the air and the doctors is taking stuff out.

You really think the standard room can hold over 5000 people?
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
The point is that people didn't buy slaves to kill them. The object of slavery was not to kill slaves. They were deprived necessarily of their liberty, not their life.

The targets of abortion are deprived of both, necessarily.

The Venn diagram between people who ideologically oppose abortion and people who will defend slave owners is a circle. In both cases the core belief is that a certain type of person is less than human (slavery --> black people, abortion --> women) and therefore does not have the right of self determination.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
Biologists, even those who consider themselves very pro-choice, disagree.

  • 2,899 American adults were surveyed and asked to select the group most qualified to answer the question of when a human’s life begins. The majority selected biologists (81%).
  • A sample of 5,502 biologists from 1,058 academic institutions assessed statements representing the biological view ‘a human’s life begins at fertilization’.
  • Each of the three statements representing that view was affirmed by a consensus of biologists (75-91%). The participants were separated into 60 groups and each statement was affirmed by a consensus of each group, including biologists that identified as very pro-choice (69-90%), very pro-life (92-97%), very liberal (70-91%), very conservative (94-96%), strong Democrats (74-91%), and strong Republicans (89-94%). Overall, 95% of all biologists affirmed the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization (5212 out of 5502).

Hahahahahahahaha. For someone who claims to harbor "above average" intelligence, why did you choose to not read or scrutinize the pseudo-manuscript you posted? If I was going to post something, I would make sure I read it and thought about the contents before posting something that borders on academic fraud.

First of all, you do realize that "paper" has not been peer reviewed, correct? There's many reasons why it hasn't past muster and been published in an academic journal, even the abstract is fraudulent. How did Steven Jacobs come up with 95% that you purposefully placed in bold? Did you actually read and understand what he means by 95%? Let me break it down, because I read it. He made a composite outcome. He combined the responses of several questions of his "survey" to obtain 95%. What were the questions he included in his composite outcome?

Q1: "The end product of mammalian fertilization is a fertilized egg (‘zygote’), a new mammalian organism in the first stage of its species’ life cycle with its species’ genome "
Q2: “The development of a mammal begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”

95% of biologists did not affirm that "a human's life begins at fertilization." A significant proportion of that 95% value agreed with the idea that a new mammalian organism is created at fertilization. Nowhere in those two questions does the words human life appear, nor the phrasing of "a human's life begins at fertilization." That's obvious reason #1 why this junk survey has never achieved publication, it is a downright false statement he makes in his abstract.

Furthermore, how did he generate his survey? His methodology is sparse, incomplete, and simply doesn't make any sense. He claims that he magically contacted "62,469" biologists through email. No, he didn't have a listserv or mass email list to send it out to. He seriously claims that he looked up "biologists" on academic websites and emailed them. Am I really to believe he sat at his computer and emailed each one? If I were to assume it takes 1 minute to look up each "biologist," it would take him over 43 days of working 24-hours non-stop to achieve that number. Are you really that gullible? He also claims to have solicited "post-docs" from faculty pages. Post-docs are not faculty, and most don't even have a separate page on the websites of different academic institutions. So how did he solicit contact information from this group? It makes zero logistical sense.

How does he define a "biologist?" Does a virologist qualify? How about a bacteriologist? Structural biologist? Which one's did he select? He can't claim he emailed a bunch of experts in the field if he doesn't even know what area of biology they are experts in. His use of the term "biologist" is just trying to put lipstick on a pig, it is a buzz term trying to make it sound like he contacted experts in the field. But again, there's a reason why he doesn't include such key points in his methodology, it is clearly junk science. Look at his response rate, 12%. That is an utterly dreadful response rate, as many social science surveys of good academic rigor achieve 30-60% response rates. Look at the rest of his methodology. He claims he asked biology questions to solicit the expertise of the subjects, but nowhere does he include the data to validate his survey. Why did he refuse to include that validation data? Look at the author list. There is only one person willing to slap their name on this write-up, just "Steven Andrew Jacobs." It is almost unheard of for a PhD candidate to try to publish something in academia without having his degree mentor(s) as co-authors. There's a reason nobody else wanted authorship of his low-quality efforts, right from the onset from his abstract, one can tell it is fraudulent data.

Its pretty clear his write-up is garbage and everything is indicative of bad science. So why did you trust those results when you didn't even bother to read his inept and/or made-up attempt to describe biologists' views?
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
Hahahahahahahaha. For someone who claims to harbor "above average" intelligence, why did you choose to not read or scrutinize the pseudo-manuscript you posted? If I was going to post something, I would make sure I read it and thought about the contents before posting something that borders on academic fraud.

First of all, you do realize that "paper" has not been peer reviewed, correct? There's many reasons why it hasn't past muster and been published in an academic journal, even the abstract is fraudulent. How did Steven Jacobs come up with 95% that you purposefully placed in bold? Did you actually read and understand what he means by 95%? Let me break it down, because I read it. He made a composite outcome. He combined the responses of several questions of his "survey" to obtain 95%. What were the questions he included in his composite outcome?

Q1: "The end product of mammalian fertilization is a fertilized egg (‘zygote’), a new mammalian organism in the first stage of its species’ life cycle with its species’ genome "
Q2: “The development of a mammal begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”

95% of biologists did not affirm that "a human's life begins at fertilization." A significant proportion of that 95% value agreed with the idea that a new mammalian organism is created at fertilization. Nowhere in those two questions does the words human life appear, nor the phrasing of "a human's life begins at fertilization." That's obvious reason #1 why this junk survey has never achieved publication, it is a downright false statement he makes in his abstract.

Furthermore, how did he generate his survey? His methodology is sparse, incomplete, and simply doesn't make any sense. He claims that he magically contacted "62,469" biologists through email. No, he didn't have a listserv or mass email list to send it out to. He seriously claims that he looked up "biologists" on academic websites and emailed them. Am I really to believe he sat at his computer and emailed each one? If I were to assume it takes 1 minute to look up each "biologist," it would take him over 43 days of working 24-hours non-stop to achieve that number. Are you really that gullible? He also claims to have solicited "post-docs" from faculty pages. Post-docs are not faculty, and most don't even have a separate page on the websites of different academic institutions. So how did he solicit contact information from this group? It makes zero logistical sense.

How does he define a "biologist?" Does a virologist qualify? How about a bacteriologist? Structural biologist? Which one's did he select? He can't claim he emailed a bunch of experts in the field if he doesn't even know what area of biology they are experts in. His use of the term "biologist" is just trying to put lipstick on a pig, it is a buzz term trying to make it sound like he contacted experts in the field. But again, there's a reason why he doesn't include such key points in his methodology, it is clearly junk science. Look at his response rate, 12%. That is an utterly dreadful response rate, as many social science surveys of good academic rigor achieve 30-60% response rates. Look at the rest of his methodology. He claims he asked biology questions to solicit the expertise of the subjects, but nowhere does he include the data to validate his survey. Why did he refuse to include that validation data? Look at the author list. There is only one person willing to slap their name on this write-up, just "Steven Andrew Jacobs." It is almost unheard of for a PhD candidate to try to publish something in academia without having his degree mentor(s) as co-authors. There's a reason nobody else wanted authorship of his low-quality efforts, right from the onset from his abstract, one can tell it is fraudulent data.

Its pretty clear his write-up is garbage and everything is indicative of bad science. So why did you trust those results when you didn't even bother to read his inept and/or made-up attempt to describe biologists' views?

Jesus Christ this guy has a PhD from the University of Chicago. What in the actual fuck. https://humdev.uchicago.edu/directories/full/alumni
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
136
Its pretty clear his write-up is garbage and everything is indicative of bad science. So why did you trust those results when you didn't even bother to read his inept and/or made-up attempt to describe biologists' views?

Well, it's pretty clear as to why, because that bad science supports his irrational, fantasy-based view of things. It tells him the sweet lies he wants to hear.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
The Venn diagram between people who ideologically oppose abortion and people who will defend slave owners is a circle. In both cases the core belief is that a certain type of person is less than human (slavery --> black people, abortion --> women) and therefore does not have the right of self determination.
Why are you trying to convince yourself of this lie? It's shameful, really. You are not changing minds with disingenuous false statements such as this.
 
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Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
136
Why are you trying to convince yourself of this lie? It's shameful, really. You are not changing minds with disingenuous false statements such as this.

It's hyperbolic and untrue, to be sure.

Really, the point to be made is that the most vociferous opponents of abortion are distinctly callous to people once they're outside of the womb. They attack education and other social supports, cheer on pro-war politicians, scapegoat immigrants... they hate life, they've just been conditioned to believe that protecting an embryo lets them off the hook.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
You trying to say that all those people are in the room when the girl has her legs in the air and the doctors is taking stuff out.

You really think the standard room can hold over 5000 people?

No, I'm saying that biologists contend that the target of abortion is a human being.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,433
4,124
136
Why are you trying to convince yourself of this lie? It's shameful, really. You are not changing minds with disingenuous false statements such as this.

I'm working to see the false part..

There was a time when both blacks and women were thought to be the "property" of white men (owners).

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