It should be dishonorable since they refused lawful orders.

[maluckey1]

That's what should happen, but there was no way the pols were going to stand for that. None of this is surprising to me.

Dishonorable discharges for COVID vaccine refusal off the table as military separations begin

Only discharges of honorable or general under honorable conditions will be allowed under the new defense authorization bill.

www.militarytimes.com

The authorization bill, finalized by Congress on Wednesday, mandates that “any discharge of a servicemember on the sole basis that the member failed to obey a lawful order to receive a vaccine for COVID-19 shall be an honorable discharge, or a general discharge under honorable conditions.”

In this case, the politicians are right.

As I posted earlier...it's best to get these guys out as fast and easy as possible for the good of the unit. There's no real excuse for not taking the vaccine, especially considering that they already got a dozen in basic training. That being said, it doesn't make them dirtbags. It does make them undesirable in general for military service.

I wouldn't have had someone like that around my team. They'd be sweeping the motorpool or pulling 24/24 CQ or daily KP until PAC processed the discharge.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Send them to the Russian Front!

so, this is all about 3k serviceman, right?

Didn't Biden just say that he is sending 3k troops over to Eastern Europe?

....May have already happened!

Oh vell, he almost got it.

 

[skyking]

Maluckey is right. ( and also experienced, thanks for chiming in 🙂 )
Get them out of there ASAP and move on. Zin too brings up a fine point about Flynn et al. He still rides his golden parachute, and to go after a little guy for not getting a shot seems ill advised.

 

[fskimospy]

Maluckey is right. ( and also experienced, thanks for chiming in 🙂 )
Get them out of there ASAP and move on. Zin too brings up a fine point about Flynn et al. He still rides his golden parachute, and to go after a little guy for not getting a shot seems ill advised.

Getting them out is a good idea, I agree. Giving them honorable discharges is not. It should be an OTH so that they are not entitled to most veterans’ benefits.

 

[maluckey1]

Getting them out is a good idea, I agree. Giving them honorable discharges is not. It should be an OTH so that they are not entitled to most veterans’ benefits.

People can, and do change. Painting a group with a wide paintbrush isn't necessarily a good thing to do. It won't make them better citizens after they get out, nor will it help morale in a volunteer fighting force. Quick and painless for the unit, and the remaining soldiers.

There's truly no reason to go any further. They served their time honorable thus far, but for whatever reason (likely hysteria or even politics) no longer feel that the military or country has their back. If that's the case it's bad for morale, and any discharge that's not "honorable" will take additional time as it typically requires secondary or upline COC review. That's time where these bad influences are hanging around the unit, taking the billet of a potentially better soldier/airman/marine etc. that can't be there because of MTOE restrictions.

I know it's only 3000 members, but that's 3000 people who are in billets, doing nothing productive, and may have already served in actual combat or deployed Title 10 somewhere. A case by case review may find a few dirtbags that deserve punishment, but they should have enough without vaccine refusal to make it stick, and this won't matter.

Maybe my confirmation bias is showing, but I find it hard to think that all 3000 vaccine refusers are scum.

M

 

[fskimospy]

People can, and do change. Painting a group with a wide paintbrush isn't necessarily a good thing to do. It won't make them better citizens after they get out, nor will it help morale in a volunteer fighting force. Quick and painless for the unit, and the remaining soldiers.

There's truly no reason to go any further. They served their time honorable thus far, but for whatever reason (likely hysteria or even politics) no longer feel that the military or country has their back. If that's the case it's bad for morale, and any discharge that's not "honorable" will take additional time as it typically requires secondary or upline COC review. That's time where these bad influences are hanging around the unit, taking the billet of a potentially better soldier/airman/marine etc. that can't be there because of MTOE restrictions.

I know it's only 3000 members, but that's 3000 people who are in billets, doing nothing productive, and may have already served in actual combat or deployed Title 10 somewhere. A case by case review may find a few dirtbags that deserve punishment, but they should have enough without vaccine refusal to make it stick, and this won't matter.

Maybe my confirmation bias is showing, but I find it hard to think that all 3000 vaccine refusers are scum.

M

I strongly disagree! First, honorably discharging these folks will be absolutely detrimental to morale, much more than correctly punishing them. Plenty of people who enlist later regret it, but there's something to the idea that everyone knows if you signed up, you do your time. Now the remaining soldiers and sailors who did the right thing and got the vaccine but maybe would rather have started college early see their insubordinate shipmates getting rewarded with an honorable discharge. Terrible for morale as people see bad conduct rewarded. This is directly contrary to good order and discipline. As far as serving their time honorably, no, they didn't. They disobeyed a direct order.

There's no need to keep these individuals in their units as they are being processed out, my base had a shore restriction barracks, for example. This is basic NJP, the same way popping positive for drug use would be.

I have no idea if these people are scum or not and I don't have any personal ill will towards them, I am simply acting on the principle that willful insubordination should not be rewarded in the military, it should be punished. I hope they do change in the future but I think part of what makes people change is discovering their actions have consequences.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Insubordination is not honorable.

 

[maluckey1]

I strongly disagree! First, honorably discharging these folks will be absolutely detrimental to morale, much more than correctly punishing them. Plenty of people who enlist later regret it, but there's something to the idea that everyone knows if you signed up, you do your time. Now the remaining soldiers and sailors who did the right thing and got the vaccine but maybe would rather have started college early see their insubordinate shipmates getting rewarded with an honorable discharge. Terrible for morale as people see bad conduct rewarded. This is directly contrary to good order and discipline. As far as serving their time honorably, no, they didn't. They disobeyed a direct order.

There's no need to keep these individuals in their units as they are being processed out, my base had a shore restriction barracks, for example. This is basic NJP, the same way popping positive for drug use would be.

I have no idea if these people are scum or not and I don't have any personal ill will towards them, I am simply acting on the principle that willful insubordination should not be rewarded in the military, it should be punished. I hope they do change in the future but I think part of what makes people change is discovering their actions have consequences.

Coming up hot on urinalysis isn't remotely the same. Rather bad example, but I get your point. BTW, even drug failures and DUI were still on my books until actually signing out of the unit. Even in confinement (house or other) they were on my books. The only way to get them off is reassignment....and who wanted them? There they stayed until some REMF from PERSCOM got around to clearing them for out-processing

I don't know what kind of unit you were in, and my experience was mostly as an NCO in various combat/line units, so my reality may not be yours.

I can say that in any of my old units, less than one fuck would be given to any of these vaccine protesters, and nobody would care what happened to them so long as they were GONE. We're all volunteers, so if someone wanted out, we helped them get out. We left the money aspect to the bean counters at FORSCOM, and they can fight with USAREC for letting these guys in. I had better things to do with my time.

As far as college tuition? A degree is mostly worth nothing but a check in the box for the Army (most every officer has at least one degree, as do many/most NCO's). Maybe getting out and going to college, then getting a job would make the protesters less of an idiot.....likely not, but it's possible. Not my concern once they're out of sight, out of mind. I'd treat these idiots just like the kids that get into religious cults that make them incompatible with combat.....put them out.

 

[fskimospy]

Coming up hot on urinalysis isn't remotely the same. Rather bad example, but I get your point. BTW, even drug failures and DUI were still on my books until actually signing out of the unit. Even in confinement (house or other) they were on my books. The only way to get them off is reassignment....and who wanted them? There they stayed until some REMF from PERSCOM got around to clearing them for out-processing

I don't know what kind of unit you were in, and my experience was mostly as an NCO in various combat/line units, so my reality may not be yours.

I was an E-5 on the USS Valley Forge, worked on communications and cryptography. My ship took part in the invasion of Iraq but the Iraqi Navy was not exactly a formidable adversary so obviously my experience is not comparable to yours in that regard.

I can say that in any of my old units, less than one fuck would be given to any of these vaccine protesters, and nobody would care what happened to them so long as they were GONE. We're all volunteers, so if someone wanted out, we helped them get out. We left the money aspect to the bean counters at FORSCOM, and they can fight with USAREC for letting these guys in. I had better things to do with my time.

I personally didn't enjoy my time in the Navy very much and if they had given me an option to get out with an honorable discharge and all my benefits I surely would have taken it. That (rightly) wasn't an option though, I signed on the dotted line and took the oath, so I did the job. There's nothing in the oath about 'until the United States asks you to do something you'd rather not'.

As far as college tuition? A degree is mostly worth nothing but a check in the box for the Army (most every officer has at least one degree, as do many/most NCO's). Maybe getting out and going to college, then getting a job would make the protesters less of an idiot.....likely not, but it's possible. Not my concern once they're out of sight, out of mind. I'd treat these idiots just like the kids that get into religious cults that make them incompatible with combat.....put them out.

I don't know if it would make them any less of an idiot but it would give them a benefit worth well over $100,000. There's a reason the military recruits so hard on the GI Bill benefits - they are worth a lot of money and people really want them!

Bottom line, it is wrong to reward insubordination with six figure benefits paid in tax dollars. Make them an example.

 

[FirNaTine]

Well usually you can't but there's a few classes of discharge, split into if you get VA benefits or not:

You get VA benefits for these:
1) Honorable - generally speaking this means you finished your enlistment and did at least a passable job.
2) Medical - speaks for itself
3) General - you didn't do anything super wrong but you were kind of a shitbag.

You don't for these:
4) Other than honorable - you committed some significant violation of the rules, but usually not anything that would be considered criminal on the outside. Overwhelmingly this is for using drugs.
5) Bad conduct/dishonorable - I never really got the difference between these two. They usually mean you committed a fairly serious crime.

The way I understand it is BCD is usually for something that would be misdemeanor in the civilian world, DD for felony level charges. The DD also disqualifies you from owning firearms as a civilian as well as a lot of jobs. DD's also require a higher level hearing to occur. Types of court martial BCD can be a midlevel trial, DD requires the highest.

 

[trenchfoot]

For informational purposes:

Types of military discharges explained - Delaware Gazette

There are many different types of United States military discharges. Contrary to popular belief, there are not only the two most well-known discharges, which are characterized as honorable and dishonorable. There are many more types of discharges, most of which are presented here. Most military...

www.delgazette.com

 

[trenchfoot]

Well there's this thing called discretion where a service member's past performance, conduct, awards, prospects for advancement time in service/grade is taken into account when the time comes for deciding how to handle their disobedience.

Not saying it directly applies as to whether or not a service member is discharged or not and what severity is applied, just saying that a guy that's a year out from retiring that had a stellar career as far as contributing to the unit's pride, integrity and morale will be given more leeway and accommodations than a guy whose service record is so bad to the point where commanders are looking for reasons to get him/her out as expeditiously as possible.

Just saying that within the culture of the military, there is this grey area where things can happen sight unseen if it's to the benefit of the unit, it's commander and the branch of service the member serves in.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

I maintain that the best approach is to transfer all objectors to one unit to serve out their time. You can't object to or refuse a transfer.

 

[hal2kilo]

For informational purposes:

Types of military discharges explained - Delaware Gazette

There are many different types of United States military discharges. Contrary to popular belief, there are not only the two most well-known discharges, which are characterized as honorable and dishonorable. There are many more types of discharges, most of which are presented here. Most military...

www.delgazette.com

For the convenience is also used for military personnel that win a great big lotto winning. They realize that you may not be that motivated as you used to be, for the sacrifices that you may never have to endure as a civilian.

 

[Maxima1]

I sincerely hope that's not the case as medical discharges give you full benefits and this 'medical condition' is the direct result of insubordination.

You might be right that they land on that anyway for political reasons, but it's a terrible idea from a good order and discipline perspective. It means anyone who enlisted last year and would really like to get started on college with their tuition substantially paid for can just refuse to get vaccinated and then start in the summer with 60% of their tuition paid for. Hell, I probably would have taken that deal if it were available.

Lots of people can start while in the military. Many positions are civilian-like with regular hours, so you can take advantage of tuition assistance (which pays up to I think $250 per unit). That covers a lot of universities, and they have essentially the whole online US higher education system to look into because they don't have to pay non-resident tuition. In addition, they can also get some additional money from a Pell Grant early on, since they are considered independent with only base pay counting as income.

As far as college tuition? A degree is mostly worth nothing but a check in the box for the Army (most every officer has at least one degree, as do many/most NCO's). Maybe getting out and going to college, then getting a job would make the protesters less of an idiot.....likely not, but it's possible. Not my concern once they're out of sight, out of mind. I'd treat these idiots just like the kids that get into religious cults that make them incompatible with combat.....put them out.

I agree that college is largely signaling for many positions, but what's your point there? It's a gatekeeper for many jobs, so who wouldn't want it paid for?

Not true! With the post-9/11 GI bill you are eligible for a 40% benefit in as soon as 3 months, assuming your conditions of separation aren't bad.

And that's not all. Getting out at 181 days or more, you could possibly get 150 credits paid for (no income limitation), including graduate level if you were a resident of Texas, entered service in Texas, or declared it as your home of record.

Hazlewood and Education Services

www.tvc.texas.gov

The Hazlewood Act is a State of Texas benefit that provides qualified Veterans, spouses, and dependent children with an education benefit of up to 150 hours of tuition exemption, including most fee charges, at public institutions of higher education in Texas. This does NOT include living expenses, books, or supply fees.

 

[KMFJD]

Bit of a related update, it appears that Joe Biden has finally relented,good and needed change , Fort Bragg should be nervous af

Biden Overhauls Military Justice Code, Seeking to Curb Sexual Assault (Published 2023)

The largest overhaul of the Uniform Code of Military Justice since its creation in 1950 removes commanders’ authority over cases of sexual assault and a handful of other high-profile crimes.

www.nytimes.com

President Biden gave final approval on Friday to the biggest reshaping in generations of the country’s Uniform Code of Military Justice, stripping commanders of their authority over cases of sexual assault, rape and murder to ensure prosecutions that are independent of the chain of command.

By signing a far-reaching executive order, Mr. Biden ushered in the most significant changes to the modern military legal system since it was created in 1950. The order follows two decades of pressure from lawmakers and advocates of sexual assault victims, who argued that victims in the military were too often denied justice, culminating in a bipartisan law mandating changes.

 

[APU_Fusion]

Bit of a related update, it appears that Joe Biden has finally relented,good and needed change , Fort Bragg should be nervous af

Biden Overhauls Military Justice Code, Seeking to Curb Sexual Assault (Published 2023)

The largest overhaul of the Uniform Code of Military Justice since its creation in 1950 removes commanders’ authority over cases of sexual assault and a handful of other high-profile crimes.

www.nytimes.com

President Biden gave final approval on Friday to the biggest reshaping in generations of the country’s Uniform Code of Military Justice, stripping commanders of their authority over cases of sexual assault, rape and murder to ensure prosecutions that are independent of the chain of command.

By signing a far-reaching executive order, Mr. Biden ushered in the most significant changes to the modern military legal system since it was created in 1950. The order follows two decades of pressure from lawmakers and advocates of sexual assault victims, who argued that victims in the military were too often denied justice, culminating in a bipartisan law mandating changes.

More woke shit from the left /s