It?s Crunch Time for Israel on Iran

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Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Mr. Bolton, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of ?Surrender Is Not an Option: Defending America at the United Nations? (Simon & Schuster, 2007).

John Bolton and the American Enterprise Institute are UN-American whores who spewed their war mongering through Murdoch's media propoganda mills. They're high on my list of those who should be tried and convicted for the crimes committed by the Bushwhackos.

Rupert Murdoch owns the Wall Street Journal, and now, they're pimping yet another war. One would think they'd learned from pimping the Bushwhackos' war of lies in Iraq. But then, Rupert probably made money off that war so he's probably trying to improve the outlook for his investments.

What Israel eventually does in its own defense will be up to them. I can only hope that, if they chose to undertake operations against Iran, their actions are based on strong evidence that will stand up to scrutiny after the fact and NOT by mad rants from fear mongering war pimps like John Bolton, the American Enterprise Institute and Rupert Murdoch's media droids. :thumbsdown: :|
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
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lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
While Iran does has a nuclear program, its stated purpose is the peacetime use for electrical power generation.

There is zero proof the Iran wants nuclear weapons and the go or no go point for Iranian nukes is still years into the future.

Because Iran has approval from the IAEA, their program is and remains UN approved.

And unlike Syria or Iraq, Iran has many deeply buried nuclear facilities, making any Israeli attack very difficult if not impossible unless Israel is willing to use nukes.

But if Israel attacks anyway, the US and Obama will have no choice but to cut off all foreign aid to Israel, while Israel would face an international trade embargo that would collapse its own economy.

That is such a laughably intellectually dishonest statement, I think the only appropriate reply is that hitler only wanted czechoslovakia for piece in out time.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Time to admit that besides the US & friends foreign interference, Israel is the most disruptive force in the Mid East.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
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Originally posted by: soccerballtux
You can call it all you want but the truth is clearly visible. Israel is not a problem. Iran is.

They were such bullies...right. They were such bullies that nobody else cared they had nukes. It wasn't until Iran started talking about their nuclear program that everyone else had to have one, too. Nobody cares if Israel has them, because they know they're moderate, not crazy Islamic nutjobs (Iran).
While you obviously would like to pretend otherwise, here is a brief history of others concern with Israel's nukes, for those who prefer reality. And sure, Iran is run by Muslim clerics, but it is Israel's Prime Minster and his stenographers invoking the Biblical boogieman of "Alamek" in their rhetoric against Iran.

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Google this guy, he's been wanking to the idea of Israel attacking Iran for literally years now. He's a broken record. Not to say Israel won't eventually attack Iran, as a broken clock is right sometimes, too, but this guy is a huge war hawk.
That isn't even the half of it. He was one of the big players in luring us into invading Iraq, and was trying to goad us into confrontations with Cuba and Syria too.

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Sure, Iran hasn't been feverishly pursuing nuclear weapons and repeatedly threatening to wipe out the US, Israel, etc with said nuclear weapons.
Right, they really haven't.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Time to admit that besides the US & friends foreign interference, Israel is the most disruptive force in the Mid East.

Yeah, cause in the last 50ish years while other nations in the region have started a dozen or so attacks on other countries, and this isn't including local actions like the numerous lebanese civil wars or turk and iraq attacks against the kurds, israel has started how many wars against other nations?
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
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Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Time to admit that besides the US & friends foreign interference, Israel is the most disruptive force in the Mid East.

John Walker Lindh? How are you posting from prison?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
When I take the time to read posts like the ones above, I know people right now are living in parallels within the multiverse.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
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Originally posted by: OCguy
Anyone who doesn't believe that Israel will ensure Iran does not obtain a nuclear weapon is not a knowledgeable student of history.

They won't. That I can almost guarantee you. If the Iranians want nuclear weapons, no one will stop them, not even us.

Wars are expensive. Bailouts are expensive. Healthcare is expensive. Our creditors are getting impatient.

The best way to ensure there isn't a war with Iran is to bring them in from the cold. Increase trade with them and make them a responsible partner in world affairs. If Israel could stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons, they would've tried by now. But Iran has powerful countermeasures that even the Israelis are afraid of.

Remember, despite their supposed hatred of each other, these two nations traded weapons in the 1980s.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Sure, Iran hasn't been feverishly pursuing nuclear weapons and repeatedly threatening to wipe out the US, Israel, etc with said nuclear weapons.
Right, they really haven't.

Wow, really? Talk about living in a fantasy land and denying reality. Do we really need to link the numerous times that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has proclaimed that the US/Israel/Britain/the West are "the Great Satan" and vowed to obliterate us from the earth? Really?

:roll:
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: dphantom
Let me propose a scenario some may not have thought of...
I think you have the gist of what might be the Israeli air war plan.

I would also think a bit more outside the box of an attack limited to air strikes.

Israel has a great tech development infrastructure as well as a very competent special operations capability.

Since the most important Iranian development facilities are now underground, I could see Israeli special operators doing covert emplacement of low or no yield suitcase nukes and/or long term contaminant munitions at key sites for remote or timed detonation.

This localization minimizes collateral damage, may be more effective than air strikes under defensive pressure, minimizes Israeli casualties and makes it harder for the Iranians to get world approval for the inevitable retaliatory strike if the Israelis don't claim credit for the hit.

A few successful emplacements may be all that is required to slow down the Iranian development effort for a few more years and give everyone time for an Iranian change of government and/or counter-revolution to take place.

Another option would be to use unmanned aircraft systems en masse to get to a wide variety of targets and to overwhelm the air defense systems that are going to be active. Question here is what is going to be the launch platform and how many platforms can they get into range to be effective?

Even a few conventional weapons, if they can be effectively placed, will destroy a centrifuge farm. Those devices are very vibration sensitive and basically destroy themselves if not stable.

My real concern is not with the Israeli strike, effective or not, but the mess that happens after. But better the mess after, than doing nothing. (I borrowed that from you know whom. :D )

My observations:

I think the naval component will be rescue/recovery and possible SAM suppression/naval interdiction while the strike package goes in and comes back out.

UAV I don't see as viable. Unless a close in Arab state allows a launch pad, UAVs don't have the range. And Israel does not have the naval force to put a large UAV flight in the air.

Israeli nukes are not an option IMO.

Special Forces also unlikely as ingress and egress will be very difficult and there is a pretty high probability of losing one or more with the attendant propoganda fiasco. I would certainly have teams in place though for rescue/recovery.

Losing a strike fighter is much less likely than taking casualties on a Special Forces team.

Israel has plausible denial after the strike even though everyone and their brother will know who did it provided there are no recoverable pieces of evidence ala the Syrian nuke site strike.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
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Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Sure, Iran hasn't been feverishly pursuing nuclear weapons and repeatedly threatening to wipe out the US, Israel, etc with said nuclear weapons.
Right, they really haven't.

Wow, really? Talk about living in a fantasy land and denying reality. Do we really need to link the numerous times that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has proclaimed that the US/Israel/Britain/the West are "the Great Satan" and vowed to obliterate us from the earth? Really?

:roll:

He's not even the supreme leader and those are just words. The "great satan" phrase has been around since 1979 and we still traded with them in the 1980s.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: PJABBER
When I take the time to read posts like the ones above, I know people right now are living in parallels within the multiverse.

Like your appreciation of Palin post... that gave me the urge to vomit?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Sure, Iran hasn't been feverishly pursuing nuclear weapons and repeatedly threatening to wipe out the US, Israel, etc with said nuclear weapons.
Right, they really haven't.

Wow, really? Talk about living in a fantasy land and denying reality. Do we really need to link the numerous times that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has proclaimed that the US/Israel/Britain/the West are "the Great Satan" and vowed to obliterate us from the earth? Really?
If you care to discuss reality, please post whatever quotes you believe back your claim that Ahmadinejad has "vowed to obliterate us from the earth".
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Time to admit that besides the US & friends foreign interference, Israel is the most disruptive force in the Mid East.

Yeah, cause in the last 50ish years while other nations in the region have started a dozen or so attacks on other countries, and this isn't including local actions like the numerous lebanese civil wars or turk and iraq attacks against the kurds, israel has started how many wars against other nations?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel has in fact started wars against Jordon, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and regularly invades, as collective punishment, places like Gaza. And has agents engaging in assassinations all over the mid-east. And has so angered it surrounding neighbors, inspiring many wealthy Arabs to fund and support anti-Israel terrorism because of Israel's basic brutalization of the Palestinian people,

In contrast, Iran, in the past 30 years has engaged in only one war after giving the Shah the ole heave ho, and that was a self defensive war when when Iraq invaded them. And need I remind you, that when 911 happened, Iran was the only country in the mid-east who had pro US rallies in support of the USA.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Sure, Iran hasn't been feverishly pursuing nuclear weapons and repeatedly threatening to wipe out the US, Israel, etc with said nuclear weapons.
Right, they really haven't.

Wow, really? Talk about living in a fantasy land and denying reality. Do we really need to link the numerous times that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has proclaimed that the US/Israel/Britain/the West are "the Great Satan" and vowed to obliterate us from the earth? Really?
If you care to discuss reality, please post whatever quotes you believe back your claim that Ahmadinejad has "vowed to obliterate us from the earth".

Wow, really? Are you so lazy that you can't Google it yourself? Or do you not want to try because it would wake you up to reality?

Here, I'll do the work for you...a few links I found within like five seconds of searching.

Ahmadinejad: Iran will "bring down" Western foes

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Newly re-elected President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Thursday his next government "would bring down the global arrogance," signaling a tougher approach by Tehran toward the West after last month's disputed election."

"But I have told the enemies ... that this nation ... will strike you in the face so hard you will lose your way home," he said in comments translated by English-language Press TV.


Ahmadinejad says Israel will soon disappear

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad predicted on Monday that Muslims would uproot "satanic powers" and repeated his controversial belief that Israel will soon disappear, the Mehr news agency reported.

"I must announce that the Zionist regime (Israel), with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion and betrayal is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene," he said.

"Today, the time for the fall of the satanic power of the United States has come and the countdown to the annihilation of the emperor of power and wealth has started."
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Sure, Iran hasn't been feverishly pursuing nuclear weapons and repeatedly threatening to wipe out the US, Israel, etc with said nuclear weapons.
Right, they really haven't.

Wow, really? Talk about living in a fantasy land and denying reality. Do we really need to link the numerous times that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has proclaimed that the US/Israel/Britain/the West are "the Great Satan" and vowed to obliterate us from the earth? Really?
If you care to discuss reality, please post whatever quotes you believe back your claim that Ahmadinejad has "vowed to obliterate us from the earth".

Wow, really? Are you so lazy that you can't Google it yourself? Or do you not want to try because it would wake you up to reality?

Here, I'll do the work for you...a few links I found within like five seconds of searching.

Ahmadinejad: Iran will "bring down" Western foes

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Newly re-elected President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Thursday his next government "would bring down the global arrogance," signaling a tougher approach by Tehran toward the West after last month's disputed election."

"But I have told the enemies ... that this nation ... will strike you in the face so hard you will lose your way home," he said in comments translated by English-language Press TV.


Ahmadinejad says Israel will soon disappear

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad predicted on Monday that Muslims would uproot "satanic powers" and repeated his controversial belief that Israel will soon disappear, the Mehr news agency reported.

"I must announce that the Zionist regime (Israel), with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion and betrayal is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene," he said.

"Today, the time for the fall of the satanic power of the United States has come and the countdown to the annihilation of the emperor of power and wealth has started."
oooh, I'm skeered:roll:

 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Time to admit that besides the US & friends foreign interference, Israel is the most disruptive force in the Mid East.

Yeah, cause in the last 50ish years while other nations in the region have started a dozen or so attacks on other countries, and this isn't including local actions like the numerous lebanese civil wars or turk and iraq attacks against the kurds, israel has started how many wars against other nations?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel has in fact started wars against Jordon, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and regularly invades, as collective punishment, places like Gaza. And has agents engaging in assassinations all over the mid-east. And has so angered it surrounding neighbors, inspiring many wealthy Arabs to fund and support anti-Israel terrorism because of Israel's basic brutalization of the Palestinian people,

In contrast, Iran, in the past 30 years has engaged in only one war after giving the Shah the ole heave ho, and that was a self defensive war when when Iraq invaded them. And need I remind you, that when 911 happened, Iran was the only country in the mid-east who had pro US rallies in support of the USA.

1967 is the only war Israel started and was a premeptive strike before those states you listed could invade which they were within days of doing. 1973, Israel did not prempt and was almost overrun. The various Lebanon/Gaza incursions were all in retaliation for others starting the war, not Israel.

 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: PJABBER
I think the Israelis will hit Iran sooner or later unless the government in Iran is overthrown by a more moderate regime or the Iranians immediately stop their nuke program under a very strict international monitoring program. Doesn't look like those two things are going to happen, though, does it?

If the Israelis don't act and Iran gets the Bomb, there will be a huge arms race in the Mid-East that will see countries like Saudi Arabia and Syria move quickly toward having nukes themselves. If the U.S. is seen as a paper tiger, which it is right now under Obama, both allies and enemies will not trust that the U.S. will have the will to do anything but talk, talk, talk until it is too late.

Another scary aspect to consider in all this is that Obama may think he needs to prove his street creds as a warrior or as a transcendent global leader by some military action. Who knows who he is going to target if he does?

WTF did GWB&Co do while NK obtained and tested nukes? Why weren't you here in P&N full of faux outrage? Never mind, I already know the answer. :disgust:
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: dphantom
Let me propose a scenario some may not have thought of...

My observations:

I think the naval component will be rescue/recovery and possible SAM suppression/naval interdiction while the strike package goes in and comes back out.

UAV I don't see as viable. Unless a close in Arab state allows a launch pad, UAVs don't have the range. And Israel does not have the naval force to put a large UAV flight in the air.

Israeli nukes are not an option IMO.

Special Forces also unlikely as ingress and egress will be very difficult and there is a pretty high probability of losing one or more with the attendant propoganda fiasco. I would certainly have teams in place though for rescue/recovery.

Losing a strike fighter is much less likely than taking casualties on a Special Forces team.

Israel has plausible denial after the strike even though everyone and their brother will know who did it provided there are no recoverable pieces of evidence ala the Syrian nuke site strike.

All good points, but I think the complexity of the mission based on the number of important targets and distances involved forces the Israelis to be creative.

Of course, they could send in multiple waves of aircraft over a period of 12 hours or even multiple days, especially if they have remote basing available, but that is certainly not the most likely scenario. Surprise and a quick in and out still is the way it will likely go, concurrently or followed by a response to the Iranian surrogates like Hezbollah that will become active in advance of any direct Iranian response.

I keep going back to the idea that there are likely less than a dozen key sites that absolutely need to be hit to degrade the Iranian nuke program to the point it will not reconstitute for a reasonably long period. If the Israelis can do that and embarrass the Iranians, like they did the Syrians, to the point they don't want to admit being hit, they would achieve the requisite breathing space.

I do expect the limited use of some ground deployed special forces for targeting, damage assessment and a contingency SAR capability. If this is the case, those same operators are likely to have already conducted at least one reconnaissance and survey mission in the AO. The planning for this has been ongoing for years and they could have used that time to also emplace or pre-position special weapons as primary or backup to take out strategic targets at the required time.

I am not saying this has to be a James Bond mission. SF would be helpful to take down power stations, C&C, scientists critical to any reconstitution effort and the like through direct action and the use of remotely detonated leave behind munitions at key soft infrastructure sites that don't have the same level of security as strategic sites. It is not like the Iranians have huge stockpiles of spare parts for electric power plants lying around.

Knowing the Israelis, I would also expect Iran to be hit with a substantial EW package, not just for masking but also to remove C&C for quite some time.

High risk/high reward missions to be sure, but if I were doing the planning I would want to insure the strategic objective was met on the first go by all means possible. Trying to get it right on a retry will be a lot tougher.
 

zoiks

Lifer
Jan 13, 2000
11,787
3
81
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: her209
Does Iran have biological/chemical weapons?

All you want to know about Iran's military, look under Special Weapons for WMD, including chemical and biological.

GlobalSecurity.org - Iran

Israel does and get a free ticket for having them.
I fucking hate the way they control the US and most of the world. Say anything that sound slightly detrimental to them and they'll yell 'he's an anti-semite'.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Time to admit that besides the US & friends foreign interference, Israel is the most disruptive force in the Mid East.

Yeah, cause in the last 50ish years while other nations in the region have started a dozen or so attacks on other countries, and this isn't including local actions like the numerous lebanese civil wars or turk and iraq attacks against the kurds, israel has started how many wars against other nations?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel has in fact started wars against Jordon, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and regularly invades, as collective punishment, places like Gaza. And has agents engaging in assassinations all over the mid-east. And has so angered it surrounding neighbors, inspiring many wealthy Arabs to fund and support anti-Israel terrorism because of Israel's basic brutalization of the Palestinian people,

In contrast, Iran, in the past 30 years has engaged in only one war after giving the Shah the ole heave ho, and that was a self defensive war when when Iraq invaded them. And need I remind you, that when 911 happened, Iran was the only country in the mid-east who had pro US rallies in support of the USA.

Lol, invading gaza. I guess you have op ed articles ready to go for the US regularly invading virginia and california.


And it's glad to see you can't debate my point by only focuing on the actions of one of the countries in the area. Better yet, next time you should focus your defense of anti-israeli policy by statng kuwait has never invaded another; that being one less than irans one.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: zoiks
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: her209
Does Iran have biological/chemical weapons?

All you want to know about Iran's military, look under Special Weapons for WMD, including chemical and biological.

GlobalSecurity.org - Iran

Israel does and get a free ticket for having them.
I fucking hate the way they control the US and most of the world. Say anything that sound slightly detrimental to them and they'll yell 'he's an anti-semite'.

Well, what do you call those who blame Jews for all our ills?
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: zoiks
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: her209
Does Iran have biological/chemical weapons?

All you want to know about Iran's military, look under Special Weapons for WMD, including chemical and biological.

GlobalSecurity.org - Iran

Israel does and get a free ticket for having them.
I fucking hate the way they control the US and most of the world. Say anything that sound slightly detrimental to them and they'll yell 'he's an anti-semite'.

Well, what do you call those who blame Jews for all our ills?

You misunderstand. It's not ALL Jews he wants to exterminate, just Israel.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: lupi

Lol, invading gaza. I guess you have op ed articles ready to go for the US regularly invading virginia and california.

It wasn't Virginia or California, troll boy. It was New York. :shocked:

Bush Weighed Using Military in Arrests

By MARK MAZZETTI and DAVID JOHNSTON
Published: July 24, 2009

WASHINGTON ? Top Bush administration officials in 2002 debated testing the Constitution by sending American troops into the suburbs of Buffalo to arrest a group of men suspected of plotting with Al Qaeda, according to former administration officials.

Some of the advisers to President George W. Bush, including Vice President Dick Cheney, argued that a president had the power to use the military on domestic soil to sweep up the terrorism suspects, who came to be known as the Lackawanna Six, and declare them enemy combatants.

Mr. Bush ultimately decided against the proposal to use military force.

A decision to dispatch troops into the streets to make arrests has few precedents in American history, as both the Constitution and subsequent laws restrict the military from being used to conduct domestic raids and seize property.

The Fourth Amendment bans ?unreasonable? searches and seizures without probable cause. And the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 generally prohibits the military from acting in a law enforcement capacity.

In the discussions, Mr. Cheney and others cited an Oct. 23, 2001, memorandum from the Justice Department that, using a broad interpretation of presidential authority, argued that the domestic use of the military against Al Qaeda would be legal because it served a national security, rather than a law enforcement, purpose.

?The president has ample constitutional and statutory authority to deploy the military against international or foreign terrorists operating within the United States,? the memorandum said.

The memorandum ? written by the lawyers John C. Yoo and Robert J. Delahunty ? was directed to Alberto R. Gonzales, then the White House counsel, who had asked the department about a president?s authority to use the military to combat terrorist activities in the United States.

The memorandum was declassified in March. But the White House debate about the Lackawanna group is the first evidence that top American officials, after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, actually considered using the document to justify deploying the military into an American town to make arrests.

Most former officials interviewed for this article spoke only on the condition of anonymity because the deliberations about the case involved classified information. They agreed to talk about the internal discussions only after the memorandum was released earlier this year.

New information has recently emerged about the deliberations and divisions in the administration over some of the most controversial policies after the Sept. 11 attacks, like the decision to use brutal interrogation methods on Qaeda detainees.

Former officials in the administration said this debate was not as bitter as others during Mr. Bush?s first term. The discussions did not proceed far enough to put military units on alert.

Still, at least one high-level meeting was convened to debate the issue, at which several top Bush aides argued firmly against the proposal to use the military, advanced by Mr. Cheney, his legal adviser David S. Addington and some senior Defense Department officials.

Among those in opposition were Condoleezza Rice, then the national security adviser; John B. Bellinger III, the top lawyer at the National Security Council; Robert S. Mueller III, the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; and Michael Chertoff, then the head of the Justice Department?s criminal division.

?Frankly, it was a bit of a turf war,? said one former senior administration official. ?For a number of people, crossing the line of having intelligence or military activities inside the United States was not worth the risk.?

Mr. Bush ended up ordering the F.B.I. to make the arrests in Lackawanna, near Buffalo, where the agency had been monitoring a group of Yemeni Americans with suspected Qaeda ties. The five men arrested there in September 2002, and a sixth arrested nearly simultaneously in Bahrain, pleaded guilty to terrorism-related charges.

Scott L. Silliman, a Duke University law professor specializing in national security law, said an American president had not deployed the active-duty military on domestic soil in a law enforcement capacity, without specific statutory authority, since the Civil War.

Senior military officials were never consulted, former officials said. Richard B. Myers, a retired general who was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in a recent interview that he was unaware of the discussion.

Former officials said the 2002 debate arose partly from Justice Department concerns that there might not be enough evidence to arrest and successfully prosecute the suspects in Lackawanna. Mr. Cheney, the officials said, had argued that the administration would need a lower threshold of evidence to declare them enemy combatants and keep them in military custody.

Earlier that summer, the administration designated Jose Padilla an enemy combatant and sent him to a military brig in South Carolina. Mr. Padilla was arrested by civilian agencies on suspicion of plotting an attack using a radioactive bomb.

Those who advocated using the military to arrest the Lackawanna group had legal ammunition: the memorandum by Mr. Yoo and Mr. Delahunty.

The lawyers, in the Justice Department?s Office of Legal Counsel, wrote that the Constitution, the courts and Congress had recognized a president?s authority ?to take military actions, domestic as well as foreign, if he determines such actions to be necessary to respond to the terrorist attacks upon the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, and before.?

The document added that the neither the Posse Comitatus Act nor the Fourth Amendment tied a president?s hands.

Despite this guidance, some Bush aides bristled at the prospect of troops descending on an American suburb to arrest terrorism suspects.

?What would it look like to have the American military go into an American town and knock on people?s door?? said a second former official in the debate.

Chief James L. Michel of the Lackawanna police agreed. ?If we had tanks rolling down the streets of our city,? Chief Michel said, ?we would have had pandemonium down here.?

The Lackawanna case was the first after the Sept. 11 attacks in which American intelligence and law enforcement operatives believed they had dismantled a Qaeda cell in the United States.

In the months before the arrests, Mr. Bush was regularly briefed on the case by Mr. Mueller of the F.B.I. and George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence. The C.I.A. had been tracking the overseas contacts of the Lackawanna group.

In a Wall Street Journal op-ed article in March, Mr. Yoo defended his 2001 memorandum and its reasoning, saying that after Sept. 11 the Bush administration faced the real prospect of Qaeda cells undertaking attacks on American soil. ?The possibility of such attacks raised difficult, fundamental questions of constitutional law,? he wrote, ?because they might require domestic military operations against an enemy for the first time since the Civil War.?

Here are portions of that memo:

Nor is it necessary that the military forces on our soil be foreign. Suppose that an armed and violent group of United States citizens seized control of a part of the country during the Civil War. Federal Armed Forces must be free to use force to put down this insurrection without being constrained by the Fourth Amendment, even though force would be intentionally directed against persons known to be citizens.
.
.
In light of the well-settled understanding that constitutional constraints must give way in some respects to the exigencies of war, we think that the better view is that the Fourh Amendment does not apply to domestic military operations designed to deter and prevent further terrorist attacks.
.
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First Amendment speech and press rights may also be subordinated to the overriding need to wage war successfully.

Like his bosses, your thankfully EX-Traitor In Cheif and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers and war criminals, John Yoo is a perverted, facist dictatorial piece of shit who doesn't understand that the test of our system of government is how it works to preserve our rights under the worst of times. It is NOT a system to be casually discarded at the whim of a dictatorial leadership. :thumbsdown: :|