IT Project Management V.S. Technical Roles

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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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At some companies the functional manager has the power, at others the PM does, and at others it is balanced. If a company's culture is to let the functional manager have the power (like freegeeks') then being a PM would be the worst job imaginable. Where I work the PM has a lot of power. A PM can't get someone fired but they can throw people off the project due to lack of performance, which is usually one step away from getting the axe.

Smart PMs lay out their plans and resource needs early on. If the people on the project determine how long things will take, and if the PM is smart enough to track progress and report problems to the functional manager, the PM pretty much cannot fail. They are still responsible for the project, but when the top executives have seen report after report showing the project team failing to hit their targets, the blame isn't put on the PM.

It's when PMs don't track how things are going and they wake up one day to realize it's a bad situation that they tend to take the rap.

This is what I'm talking about right here. These are the words of a successful project manager. kranky's post is the words of wisdom but the difference between resource manager and functional manager can be interchanged. A resource is a resource and it MUST be commited before hand. This is where the communication plan comes into play - nail that resrource to the wall, constantly - bi weekly, let all the key stakeholders know the resource (or in some cases their entire department) isn't meeting deadlines.

If the PM has no power, the project will sputter and fail. I am a project manager and when I say jump, you will jump. You and your boss and your bosses boss agreed that you will jump. Otherwise at each and every meeting the failure and issue will be flagged and visibility in this failure will be highlighted and then the shit rolls downhill to the resource. After about 4 days, the resource will jump and he will be begging the PM on just how high he must jump.

If a PM has no power, backing, or key stake holders it will fail or sputter. This is common problem when you make staff level people project managers. You need to give them the power and compensation to get shit done.
 
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Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
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A lot of wisdom in this thread. Let me highlight some key points:



This is very true. There is, in general, a shit-ton-and-a-half of disrespect for the PM profession, and in my opinion, it's well earned. Most PM's are, as someone else said, glorified secretaries/babysitters. The PM role was probably invented by a slacker VP who didn't feel like doing the less glamorous aspects of his job, such as project tracking and meeting with department leads/heads. That's not to say there aren't companies/projects that legitimately need PM's, but a lot of PM's exist because a Veep has his chin raised a little too high.

But if you're technically inclined and have direct experience in the fields of those on your project, you can tell when you're being BS'ed and when you're not. You'll be able to work more closely with these people, too, and provide a better service to them; one that goes beyond "are you done yet? I need to update my spreadsheet." You'll also inherently have more of their respect because you possess an actual skill that can produce something.



This man speaks the truth. The worst aspect of being a PM, no matter how good you are, is that you have more accountability than anyone on the projects, yet you have the least (read: ZERO) amount of authority. If someone isn't getting the job done, and you're at least talented enough to be able to pinpoint them as the problem (difficult if you don't have the technical background), the most you can do is start sending emails and copying their manager, their manager's manager, and your manager. Then you have to wait to see what those with authority over this other guy (who has authority) decide to do about it.

At the end of the day, though, if the project fails, it's usually your head that rolls down the street. The leads likely just move on to the next project. One of the largest obstacles a PM has is they're given deadlines/timelines before leads/SME's have actually assessed and staffed the project. So you're told the project has 6 months, THEN the project's leads are assembled at which point they tell you it's going to take 9 months due to critical path constraints (critical paths that you would have been able to work out on your own, had you had their background/expertise), and now you're fucked. You tell the VP, and he replies "get it done or I'll find someone who will." He's pissed at YOU. He's not even thinking of the leads' assessments. That sucks.



The key point here is that developers are far more in demand than PM's. PM's like to tell you that they're in the hottest field, but anyone being honest with themselves can see (and reason) that that's not the case at all. Consider a medium-sized IT project: You have 1 PM, say 2 - 4 developer leads/architects, and then 2 - 4 programmers for each lead. Just going by the numbers, does it really hold water that there are more PM jobs then technical jobs? "But they can be outsourced to India!" I've been hearing that for 10 years, and it's rarely the case... and I've had an Indian PM or two ;)

Also, turnover in the PM field is extraordinarily high. Over the years I see few developers get fired, but many leave because the water coming out of the water fountain isn't cold enough. They're in such high demand that they are highly mobile by choice. I rarely see PM's quit - though I see a ton of them get fired. Not because of personal faults or anything like that, it's just the do-or-die nature of the job. Turnover between the two fields is probably close to equal, and yes, you see a lot of PM job listings... but odds are, the guy who held that PM job before it was posted probably got fired. That developer posting? 50% chance it's a new position, 25% chance the guy who had it last got fired, and 25% chance the guy quit for greener pastures. Numbers pulled from my ass, yes, but highly influenced from what I've seen myself and heard from others (including PM's).

I can't speak for construction, telecom, etc., but in IT, PM salaries are on par with Technical Leads. As a Solutions Architect or Software Architect (similar but different roles), you can (and should) be making more. In my area, PM's and Leads make $90k - $100k. Solutions Architects are making in the neighborhood of $95k - $110k, and Software Architects are making $100k - $150k. That said, if your criteria for a career path is how to maximize your salary, you're going to be miserable. If you're thinking of being a PM as an IT exit strategy (and almost every one of us IT people has looked down that road), that's fine. Just know what you're getting into. If you haven't worked on many projects with a dedicated PM, then I strongly suggest that you find a way to get yourself on those projects so you can see firsthand what a PM's job entails. It's stressful as hell. A good PM is worth his weight in gold, but there are just so few of them.
This post is spot on, like all of it.

Good PMs are extremely rare, but I worked under one on a project recently and he was absolutely excellent. Very detailed oriented, nothing slipped by. I always had complete confidence that he understood the status of the project. He knew the right questions to ask, didn't procrastinate, and although was always professional he also was doggedly insistent on getting something resolved if it slipped.

Also, this PM was not one to be ignored. I didn't work for him, none of us did, but he reported directly to the guy who was the boss of our boss of our boss (literally). Nobody would ever laugh at a request and he had the full blessing of our bosses, so he was de facto boss. Also knows the business cold because has been working with it for a long time. I think a good PM can be quite powerful, but he obviously needs buy-in from either project contributor's manager or else they won't care to enforce things if their report starts slacking.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
As a PM, you'll find yourself dealing with multiple two hour long meetings with pointy haired bosses every day. Many of them think that they are technology experts because they know how to use an iPhone, and will try to tell you how to do your job even though they don't have a clue what you do.

If that sounds fun... well... you're insane but perhaps this is a good line of work for you.
 
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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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i bet you tell people to work all evening and weekend and then go home and do whatever you want

Honestly? Not my fucking problem.

The schedule and resource hours were agreed upon with the resource and their management. Yet another reason why a pm needs the control

What I am talking about is basic understanding. The pm doesn't beg. The pm says do. A fundamental failure is not giving the pm the power to move it forward.

If your pmis a secretary. Then you're doing it wrong. I say jump, you say yes sir.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,359
4,640
136
Otherwise at each and every meeting the failure and issue will be flagged and visibility in this failure will be highlighted and then the shit rolls downhill to the resource. After about 4 days, the resource will jump and he will be begging the PM on just how high he must jump.

This is what I was thinking too, when you laugh at your PM don't you realize that somewhere out there is a expense report and that PM has just put a little red number on it with your name next to it? Trust me, you don't want your name next to little red numbers. As that little red number with your name next to it grows, and it can grow incredibly fast, someone high up, someone whose title is just a three letter abbreviation, is going to start asking why is this person costing us so much money?

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned yet is that one of the required skills for being a really good PM is knowing how to get out of the way when the shit hits the fan.

Every PM eventually has a project go wrong on him. Deadlines are missed, budgets are exceeded, or something just doesn't work like it was sold to the company to. When that happens the average PM’s take the blame, and are often left looking for new jobs, the great PM’s have little red numbers with resources names next to them.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
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If your pmis a secretary. Then you're doing it wrong. I say jump, you say yes sir.

LOL!

Some of you guys really need to review organizational structures a little more -- PMBOK covers this in depth. Seriously. As kranky accurately pointed out, different organizations give PMs different levels of authority and most leave the real power in the hands of the functional manager. Every company I've ever worked for has done it that way. PMs were the guys who dabbled in Project and Excel, held status meetings, and provided reports.

And regardless of all of that, if you've had any PM training with the PMI methodology, you'd know that strong-arming isn't encouraged. People skills do count and if you act like a jerk, you're going to get shitcanned. If you're a PM and clear my time with my boss, no problem. I'll probably get everything done way ahead of any deadline. However, if you come to me with the attitude above, you're probably going to get laughed out of my office and my boss and his boss (who is the CFO, by the way) will hear about it and kick your ass.
 
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Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,392
1
0
Also, this PM was not one to be ignored. I didn't work for him, none of us did, but he reported directly to the guy who was the boss of our boss of our boss (literally). Nobody would ever laugh at a request and he had the full blessing of our bosses, so he was de facto boss. Also knows the business cold because has been working with it for a long time. I think a good PM can be quite powerful, but he obviously needs buy-in from either project contributor's manager or else they won't care to enforce things if their report starts slacking.

And herein lies the delicate balance: for a PM to be effective, he needs both buy-in from all superiors (not just his) as well as buy-in from the leads on his project. Both are tricky. Most VP's don't want to be hounded by the PM staff any more than the technical staff does (one reason it sucks to be a PM - everyone pretty much sees you as a PITA). As for the leads/archs, if you can't understand/relate to technical obstacles, they won't respect you or pay you any mind... and if you do have their boss' buy-in and you're still dumb as a brick, you'll see a LOT of turnover on the tech side of things. That's not to say that leads and architects shouldn't be expected to be able to communicate on a non-technical level, but they can't have the kind of discussions with their PM's that are absolutely necessary if the PM is just some schmuck with a foundation-less PMP.


If your pmis a secretary. Then you're doing it wrong. I say jump, you say yes sir.

LOL... you'd be the first PM I've ever met that had the authority to say jump, and the respect to actually evoke the desired result. But hey, all organizations are different and maybe you're that 1 in 1000. They're out there and they're good at getting results... but they generally don't get them by stomping their feet and yelling 'jump' ;)
 
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IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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And herein lies the delicate balance: for a PM to be effective, he needs both buy-in from all superiors (not just his) as well as buy-in from the leads on his project. Both are tricky. Most VP's don't want to be hounded by the PM staff any more than the technical staff does (one reason it sucks to be a PM - everyone pretty much sees you as a PITA). As for the leads/archs, if you can't understand/relate to technical obstacles, they won't respect you or pay you any mind... and if you do have their boss' buy-in and you're still dumb as a brick, you'll see a LOT of turnover on the tech side of things. That's not to say that leads and architects shouldn't be expected to be able to communicate on a non-technical level, but they can't have the kind of discussions with their PM's that are absolutely necessary if the PM is just some schmuck with a foundation-less PMP.

You bring up a good point. I may have mentioned this already in this thread (or perhaps it was another recent PM thread), but the PMs that get the respect are the ones that have some technical depth. I have a current project where an external contractor is involved, and they have a PM. This guy is a real pain -- you have to explain extremely basic concepts to him multiple times for him to get them, and I was constantly getting calls, emails, and visits to my office asking me to "sit down and get on the same page" which was his way of saying "I need you to explain this to me AGAIN."

Finally, I got fed up and told him that *I* was managing the project pilot and when we had a status or needed his input, I would involve him. Until then, don't call me, I'll call you. I haven't heard back since, and I think he was shocked I told him to shove off.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
2
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So you guys have any suggestions for resources that provide a crash course in what you need to know as a PM? I am finding that while much of my job ranges from the technician to supervisor level I am doing more and more PM. Right now I am putting together a proposal for a seven figure project where I will be doing 90% of the work but will need to coordinate with dozens of people around my company.
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,392
1
0
You bring up a good point. I may have mentioned this already in this thread (or perhaps it was another recent PM thread), but the PMs that get the respect are the ones that have some technical depth. I have a current project where an external contractor is involved, and they have a PM. This guy is a real pain -- you have to explain extremely basic concepts to him multiple times for him to get them, and I was constantly getting calls, emails, and visits to my office asking me to "sit down and get on the same page" which was his way of saying "I need you to explain this to me AGAIN."

Finally, I got fed up and told him that *I* was managing the project pilot and when we had a status or needed his input, I would involve him. Until then, don't call me, I'll call you. I haven't heard back since, and I think he was shocked I told him to shove off.

Heh... I had one of those recently, too. I just went to the Resource Manager (one of two guys to whom I am *ACTUALLY* accountable, much to 8 or 10 PMs' dismay), told him to get Habib Whatshisass off my back, and presto... no more meetings. VP stopped by to apologize for the PM's shens and then we talked football. From then on, I (the architect assigned to the project) coordinated with the three dev leads and the QA lead, as well as the client's architect/PM (who was one and the same... imagine that). Turns out our PM hadn't been asking the client the right questions (well, he tried... he hadn't been asking them the right way because he had no !@#$ing clue what he was talking about).

Anyway, when it was all said and done, it was amazing how fluidly a group of leads can and WILL communicate with one another, AS NEEDED, when a PM overlord isn't around to "facilitate" it.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
LOL!

Some of you guys really need to review organizational structures a little more -- PMBOK covers this in depth. Seriously. As kranky accurately pointed out, different organizations give PMs different levels of authority and most leave the real power in the hands of the functional manager. Every company I've ever worked for has done it that way. PMs were the guys who dabbled in Project and Excel, held status meetings, and provided reports.

And regardless of all of that, if you've had any PM training with the PMI methodology, you'd know that strong-arming isn't encouraged. People skills do count and if you act like a jerk, you're going to get shitcanned. If you're a PM and clear my time with my boss, no problem. I'll probably get everything done way ahead of any deadline. However, if you come to me with the attitude above, you're probably going to get laughed out of my office and my boss and his boss (who is the CFO, by the way) will hear about it and kick your ass.

I've lead you to water plenty times, but I can't make you drink. You can't shitcan me. I'm a consultant and my opinion is worth way more than yours.

Learn to play the game.

Your time has already been agreed upon, comitted, with all share holders whose performance evaluations are based on the success of the project. you WILL jump when I say jump. You WILL drop everything you are doing.
 
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IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
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I've lead you to water plenty times, but I can't make you drink. You can't shitcan me. I'm a consultant and my opinion is worth way more than yours.

Learn to play the game.

Don't count on it -- I got a whole company full of consultants shitcanned. Their president called and begged for a couple of years for our business back, and my response was always "Nope! See you later!"

Consultants present me with options and I tell them which ones to pursue. That's why we bring them in.

Your time has already been agreed upon, comitted, with all share holders whose performance evaluations are based on the success of the project. you WILL jump when I say jump. You WILL drop everything you are doing.

No, I won't. If you ask nicely I might do it, or if my boss says "Hey we need this done by x date," I'll do it. As the old expression goes, honey catches more flies than vinegar and if you are nice about it, you'll get more cooperation. Spreadsheet jockeys on power trips have no influence with me and if you need something and want to pretend you have influence, talk to my boss.

If a PM came to me and said the bolded, he'd have a big problem on his hands. And if it were a consultant PM that said that to me -- well, have fun in the unemployment line because I guarantee you, you wouldn't be consulting at my company any more with that attitude.
 
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TecHNooB

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
7,458
1
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I've lead you to water plenty times, but I can't make you drink. You can't shitcan me. I'm a consultant and my opinion is worth way more than yours.

Learn to play the game.

Your time has already been agreed upon, comitted, with all share holders whose performance evaluations are based on the success of the project. you WILL jump when I say jump. You WILL drop everything you are doing.

what type of consultant?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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Don't count on it -- I got a whole company full of consultants shitcanned. Their president called and begged for a couple of years for our business back, and my response was always "Nope! See you later!"

Consultants present me with options and I tell them which ones to pursue. That's why we bring them in.



No, I won't. If you ask nicely I might do it, or if my boss says "Hey we need this done by x date," I'll do it. However, if a PM came to me and said the bolded, he'd have a big problem on his hands. And if it was a consultant PM that said that to me -- well, have fun in the unemployment line because I guarantee you, you wouldn't be consulting at my company any more with that attitude.

You're not listening. You have no say in this as a resource. Take your experience and tell others what to do and how to do it

An outside consultsant carries much more weight than staff. That's why we get paid what we do.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
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You're not listening. You have no say in this as a resource. Take your experience and tell others what to do and how to do it

Believe me, I hear what you're saying. I'm just not sure that is REALLY what I want to do.

PMs have limited power in many/most companies. The functional managers have all the power. The PM is largely at their mercy and that sucks for the PM. That is something I would hate to be caught in.

An outside consultsant carries much more weight than staff. That's why we get paid what we do.

We bring in consultants. I sit them down and say "Here are the requirements. Give me x number of options, the pros and cons of each, and I will tell you which one to implement." Consultants are not given blank checks to do as they please under my watch. They're brought in because 1) Staff has more important projects 2) Staff has too much going on and we need staff augmentation 3) Staff hasn't been trained on something that needs to be done. The consultants ultimately answer to me and if you're a rock star, you're going to be rewarded. If not, well, I fire you. Plain and simple. I fired an entire company that had supplied us with consultants because of performance issues. In fact, I wanted to get rid of them even earlier but my boss overruled me until finally, I convinced him.
 

Gibson486

Lifer
Aug 9, 2000
18,378
2
0
You're not listening. You have no say in this as a resource. Take your experience and tell others what to do and how to do it

An outside consultsant carries much more weight than staff. That's why we get paid what we do.

You would make a great consultant for CDM.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
44
91
An outside consultsant carries much more weight than staff. That's why we get paid what we do.

That's humor right there.

I spent several years as an "outside consultant." An outside consultant's opinion isn't worth shit unless it happens to agree with what some Director already had in mind before he hired the consultant.

ZV
 

vshah

Lifer
Sep 20, 2003
19,003
24
81
I've worked at a software development company of about 50 employees that had one permanently staffed. At the media company I now work at with about 300 employees, we have 6 project managers working full time hours.

I tend to think as a software developer I can command better salaries than project managers can, but maybe I'm delusional. More to my concern is the rather out of control age discrimination in the development space. I'm hoping that levels off as we all age.

my former company seemed to actively push people who were 3-5 years in to a dev role to seek other opportunities with zero pay raises/bonuses while the guys who just joined are seeing 15% bumps for doing jack shit. its just cheap labor for them....they'd rather hire a new grad at 60k than keep you around at 100+
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
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Typical PM to Manager conversation goes sometimes like this:

PM: Freegeeks was on my project for the coming 2 weeks but he told me that he has been pulled of for at least 1 week, I'm not happy

Manager: we have a serious problem with customer impact, freegeeks is assigned now for regression testing in the lab, will take at least 5 working days, sorry

PM: but according to my planning he was mine for the whole week

manager: sorry for your planning but priorities and all that crap

PM: I'll escalate this to the VP

Manager: lets go together to the VP, lets see what he will find more important, 5 day slip on your project or 200.000 business customers with potential customer impact, SLA fines, bad press, customer relations breeding down his neck and all that other good stuff

PM: ok I go cry in my corner now and beg somewhere else for a resource
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,392
1
0
You're not listening. You have no say in this as a resource.

Actually, you're not listening. You've been told by multiple people that the leads on your project DO have a say. If they don't in your particular organization (which I seriously doubt - it would be a major first), then yours is an anomaly. Given that the "resource" actually knows the details of what needs done, what the constraints are, and most importantly - is the one actually capable of communicating with the other "resources" on your project, resources are listened to by everyone, especially the Resource Manager (who has more say than just about anyone, barring a VP or above).

When you and I are squaring off in front of the resource manager, the plain fact is that you don't have the expertise to make your point with him. I do.

Me: "The PM's timeline is unreasonable: we have these X other projects, these available developers, and other teams are facing similar issues. The deadline needs to move."

You: "But then I have to change my status to yellow!"

That's when my RM looks you square in the eye and says "we're doing what we can with what we've got. Deal with it." Then you leave in a huff and the RM and I will silently shake our heads, have a quick chuckle, and move on with our day.


An outside consultsant carries much more weight than staff.

And that's just plain delusional :biggrin: Consultants are extremely expendable and are there simply to facilitate a variable staffing model... it's rarely to augment experience. IndyColtsFan is right: if you kick up too much shit and piss everyone off, you can (and will) be replaced in the blink of an eye... the rub is that it just might come at the command of those you told to "jump".


That's humor right there.

I spent several years as an "outside consultant." An outside consultant's opinion isn't worth shit unless it happens to agree with what some Director already had in mind before he hired the consultant.

ZV

Yup. Been there, too... I don't care if your the #1 guy in your field on the planet... cause too many waves = SEE YA.