It looks like the FX Ultra really is dead!!

[cmdrdredd]

heh look...if you look at the damn pictures SIDE BY SIDE you can see that the ATI "LQ" is actually the same as Nvidia's "HQ" driver or no driver error it's the same thing!

 

[CoolLight]

Originally posted by: EdipisReks
if nvidia can release the 5800 for less than $230 in less than 3 weeks, then i will buy one. if, if if,

Why not spend $40 more to get a 9700Pro or same price for a 9700 non-Pro, they are much faster than the 5800 non-Ultra one.

 

[CoolLight]

Originally posted by: ketchup79
I don't think you get it. Gainward's press release said they will have a card with a fan on it that makes about as much noise as a human heartbeat, in other words, you can't hear it, in 2D or in 3D. The card hardOCP got was a reference card, and the fan did not run at all in 2D, so the noise from that would be zero.

Also, there is no reason to Equalize the IQ, as nVidia's FSAA should work just fine when the card is actually released. It was released for review with beta drivers, just because nVidia wanted to give everyone an idea of how this card will perform. Can you imagine how bad ATI's flagship card with mature drivers would look if it lost out to the Geforce FX with beta drivers?

LOL on you. IF Gainward are so successful on cooling as they claimed, we don't need any CPU, GPU coolers anymore, just put several "human heartbeat" fan in your case, they will work as perfect as water cooling. Gainward just renovate and introduce a whole new generation of air cooling, if that doesn't mean a ridiculous huge heatsink attached.

If Zalman claimed it with a huge heatsink, I would believe them. Gainward, no way!

 

[bgeh]

Originally posted by: Dean
Got this from www.hardocp.com

GFFX Ultra No More:
As we noted here Thursday, the GeForceFX 5800 Ultra will never make it to retail. Those of you that PreBuy the cards will still get an Ultra model with the FX Flow cooling unit. Those who don't will have the opportunity to get the non-Ultra version (400/800) off the retail shelves for a price of US$300.00 although the price is not confirmed.

Anyone have a working Voodoo5 6000 they want to trade for a working v1.1 GFFX 5800 Ultra? Drop me a line.

damn......and i thought i had just found the vacuum cleaner of my choice

 

[Shah4u]

I Think GFX Sucks

Radon 9700 pro is the best choice in term of price and performance

Beside who wants to buy a 399$ card when ur getting more performance in 325$

My System

Pentium !!! 1.2Ghz
Azza 815E Mainboard with Taliun Support
Kingston PC133 SDRAM
ATI Radon 9700 Pro(Simply Cool:roll
3DMARK 2001 SE Scores:10345

 

[nRollo]

"In a year, nVidia has gone from being the market leader to being a distant, slightly pathetic pretender to the throne"
This isn't really true.
1. We don't know the HardOCP thing is true. Even if it is, they're still making 100,000 copies of nHoover that are faster than anything ATI has now.
2. The GF FX non ultra may be a competitive part with the 9700. The ultra was 10% faster, perhaps the non will be 10% slower. For the most part, at that level of performance, you can't really notice 10%.
3. Although my 9700Pro has been rock solid for me on a KT266A and PE board, a visit to Rage 3d will show you not everyone shares my experience. You see less "you need psu X to run this vga " with nVidia
4. If you're a UT2003 junkie (me) the very low minimum fps issue with the Radeon 9700 Pro might tempt you to go FX. 10% less top end for much higher bottom end (like the 4600 had) might be enough to sway a person
Minimums EDIT: I guess I was wrong about this one, but the non ultra still isn't exactly a Xabre...
5. nVidia still owns market share and actually gained on ATI during the delay. That says a lot about their user loyalty, business saavy.

I think we need more info before we all start running through the streets bellowing,"nVidia is done! Expect doors to close soon!"
Some people need to calm down and realize nVidia is in a MUCH stronger and more diversified position than 3dfx was.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo
"In a year, nVidia has gone from being the market leader to being a distant, slightly pathetic pretender to the throne"
This isn't really true.
1. We don't know the HardOCP thing is true. Even if it is, they're still making 100,000 copies of nHoover that are faster than anything ATI has now.
2. The GF FX non ultra may be a competitive part with the 9700. The ultra was 10% faster, perhaps the non will be 10% slower. For the most part, at that level of performance, you can't really notice 10%.
3. Although my 9700Pro has been rock solid for me on a KT266A and PE board, a visit to Rage 3d will show you not everyone shares my experience. You see less "you need psu X to run this vga " with nVidia
4. If you're a UT2003 junkie (me) the very low minimum fps issue with the Radeon 9700 Pro might tempt you to go FX. 10% less top end for much higher bottom end (like the 4600 had) might be enough to sway a person
Minimums EDIT: I guess I was wrong about this one, but the non ultra still isn't exactly a Xabre...
5. nVidia still owns market share and actually gained on ATI during the delay. That says a lot about their user loyalty, business saavy.

I think we need more info before we all start running through the streets bellowing,"nVidia is done! Expect doors to close soon!"
Some people need to calm down and realize nVidia is in a MUCH stronger and more diversified position than 3dfx was.

If t he NV35 is as late and as big of a disappointment as the FX DustBuster, nVidia IS done.



Here's a CHRONOLOGY of the FX that may explain WHY it is to be "canned" (from the NVNews Forum - good work from that poster!:

Originally posted by poursoul
this has to be the worst launch of a video card (hell any computer hardware!) in the history of man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



As much as I hate to say it, I'll probably have to agree with you poursoul. But now that I've looked back at the past, it's not that surprising. I've compiled a chronological listing of key news posts dating back to last August that mention the NV30 - http://www.nvnews.net/cgi-bin/searc...gi?keyword=nv30

Unfortunately, we lost four months of news prior to August. In that news, I recall NVIDIA's CEO mentioning that the NV30 might be out as early as August of 2002.


UPDATE - May 1, 2002 - http://news.com.com/2100-1040-896850.html


This is subject to interpretation since the statement was made by the author of the article and not NVIDIA. More precisely, the phrase "from a new graphics chip slated to arrive in August" could have meant the AGP 8X version of the GeForce4.

"Also on Monday, Nvidia raised its financial outlook for the just-ended quarter, and Huang said he sees continued market share gains this year leading to more growth. Some of that will come from a new graphics chip slated to arrive in August."


END OF UPDATE


START OF NEWS POSTS


8/23/2002 - Credit Suisse First Boston analyst Tim Mahon, in a research note on Thursday afternoon, said that NVIDIA has come under criticism from analysts for declining to specify when its next-generation graphics chip, known as NV30, will ship, other than to say there will be some availability this holiday season.


8/28/2002 - Interview with Huang at SFGate.com - "We believe we have overcome the challenge. We believe we're ready to go into production. We're very confident that NV30 (Nvidia's next-generation chip) will be available for you this Christmas season."


9/7/2002 - Hiroshige?s Weekly International News - http://home.attbi.com/~bobcraig4/ka...translation.htm (Thanks to Bob Craig for the translation).

This is exactly what Nvidia?s [current] case amounts to. In other words, if the NV30 is to appear during this year, it will be conditional that the first samples are good, and that ?risk production? is performed. Because of this, if there is to be a critical bug found in the first silicon of the NV30, Nvidia?s schedule would not only be delayed, but they would take on economic damages also.


9/16/2002 - NVIDIA Needs NV30 - According to business analysts at Zacks Investment Research, NVIDIA is on their exclusive list of Stocks to Sell Now.

When that happens (the NV30 debuts), and when the technology sector in general gets back on its feet, NVDA should put together some better performances that more adequately reflect its potential. Until that time, investors may want to hold off on beginning or deepening a position in NVDA.


9/23/2002 - AnandTech visits NVIDIA - The engineers were hard at work on NV30; because of the delays there has been a lot more testing and validation work on the part that should help NVIDIA considerably once all of the manufacturing issues settle. We caught a glimpse of NV30 running off of the IKOS box.


10/24/2002 - CNET - Nvidia chips to make tardy debut - Graphics chip leader Nvidia is expected to unveil the fastest PC graphics processor yet at the Comdex trade show next month, but analysts say the new chip may be too little, too late.

Nvidia was expected to have its NV30 processor, to be sold as the GeForce 5, on the market by now. But problems stemming from shifting to a new chipmaking process have bumped back the chip by several months. Analysts now expect Nvidia to have a handful of new chips on the market by Christmas, but volume shipments won?t begin until early next year.

"Basically, they missed the cycle," Hans Mosesmann, a Prudential Securities analyst, said of Nvidia. "Really (the NV30) is a fall product that's now been pushed out for all intents and purposes to the spring."

The NV30 "is a great product," Mosesmann said. "It's going to be better, but not good enough...It's going to have to be twice as fast as the 9700 for people to look at it and think about switching." (Bear in mind that Mosesman is a Prudential Securities analyst. His knowledge concerning the performance of high-end graphics cards may be limited )


11/5/2002 - AnandTech - "NVIDIA was over today showing Matthew and I something very impressive that you'll be able to read about in the coming week(s)."


11/7/2002 - Last fall's earnings conference call NVIDIA's CEO stated - "we expect to begin production shipments (of NV30) in our January quarter." (Note that January quarter does not imply January, 2003).

We also learned that NVIDIA had been developing NV30 test chips since February 2002.


11/15/2002 - The Inquirer - NV30 "30% faster" than Radeon 9700 Pro.


11/18/2002 - NVIDIA took a beating on Wall Street today as shares dropped by almost 22%. My (MikeC) take on the situation is that when Prudential analyst Hans Mosesmann cut his rating on NVIDIA to sell, investors paniced.


11/18/2002 - NV30 debuts at COMDEX. DigiTimes reports that mass production of the NV30 chip is expected to begin by year-end and volume shipments in the first quarter of 2003.


11/19/2002 - Merril Lynch - "We believe the highly anticipated (graphics processing unit) is worthy of the attention as it delivers 2.5 (times) to 3 (times) the performance of the company's previous top-of-the-line processor, GeForce4 Ti 4600, according to industry benchmarks," Merrill Lynch analyst Joe Osha said in a research note Tuesday.

"With the NV30 finally here, we believe there is one less risk to owning the stock," Osha said.


11/20/2002 - Merril Lynch - "We spent some time with NVIDIA?s senior management at Comdex yesterday, and came away convinced that although short-term challenges remain, NVIDIA is on the right track to resume growth. With the worst now behind it, we believe NVIDIA?s valuation is too compelling to ignore, and we are reiterating our buy recommendation and $20 price target.

It will be very important for NVIDIA to successfully ramp the lower-cost versions of NV3X in time to hit the April 2003 quarter.


12/6/2002 - DigiTimes reports that TSMC's 0.13-micron processes at Fab 6 has reportedly reached a yield rate of 70% and that NVIDIA's GeForce FX (NV30) is in "small-volume test production."


2/3/2003 - Huang (NVIDIA's CEO) is confident that Nvidia will end up back on top. "Tiger Woods doesn't win every day. We don't deny that ATI has a wonderful product and it took the performance lead from us. But if they think they're going to hold onto it, they're smoking something hallucinogenic."

(Note that indirectly, Huang is admitting that NVIDIA has lost this round to ATI).


END OF NEWS POSTS


GEFORCE FX REVIEWS


AnandTech - http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1779&p=1

"So there you have it, NVIDIA's response to ATI's Radeon 9700 Pro - but does anyone else feel unfulfilled by the GeForce FX? A card that is several months late, that is able to outperform the Radeon 9700 Pro by 10% at best but in most cases manages to fall behind by a factor much greater than that. Granted the problems that plagued the launch of the FX weren't all up to NVIDIA's control, after all the decision to go 0.13-micron was made 1 - 2 years ago based on data that was available at the time. ATI took a gamble on producing a 0.15-micron part and NVIDIA did the same on their 0.13-micron NV30, and it looks like ATI guessed right."


ExtremeTech - http://www.extremetech.com/article2...3,846356,00.asp

"GeForceFX certainly puts nVidia back into contention with ATI, but Radeon 9700 Pro looks strong versus GeForceFX, and these results show just how much performance ground nVidia had lost to ATI when Radeon 9700 Pro first shipped. But ATI's solid outing here versus GeForceFX should give nVidia pause, since it appears likely that GeForceFX in fact will not return the performance lead to nVidia."


HardOCP - http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDIx

"The Bottom Line: The GeForceFX 5800 Ultra is a very hot and noisy beast that may give you a bit of an edge over the current king of the hill, the ATI 9700 Pro in some applications. If you are an NVIDIA fanboy, this of course has your name all over it. At the current US$400.00 price point, the GFFX simply does not seem worth it to us. If NVIDIA can work some driver magic and pull an extra 20% increase in frame rate out of the bag like we have seen in the past, they had best start pulling. Either that or pull out the NV35 chipset, and quick."


Tom's Hardware - http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphi...0127/index.html

(Tom's review was authored by a reviewer that runs an NVIDIA based fan site).

"NVIDIA takes the crown! No question about it - the GeForceFX 5800 Ultra is faster than the competition from ATI's Radeon 9700 PRO in the majority of the benchmarks. However, its lead is only slight, especially compared to the distance that ATI put between its Radeon 9700 PRO and the Ti 4600. Still, when compared to its predecessor, the GeForce4 Ti, the FX represents a giant step forward."


END OF REVIEWS


There are two upcoming events that we should pay attention to. The first one will be the debut of 3DMark03 next week followed by NVIDIA's conference call with investors.

What will happen if major investors begin to lose confidence in NVIDIA?

Their investors may be willing to "look the other way" for the time being since the move to .13-micron was risky. At this point, I believe the NV35 could make or break NVIDIA's graphics business sector.

 

[Ketchup]

Originally posted by: Rollo
"In a year, nVidia has gone from being the market leader to being a distant, slightly pathetic pretender to the throne"
This isn't really true.
1. We don't know the HardOCP thing is true. Even if it is, they're still making 100,000 copies of nHoover that are faster than anything ATI has now.
2. The GF FX non ultra may be a competitive part with the 9700. The ultra was 10% faster, perhaps the non will be 10% slower. For the most part, at that level of performance, you can't really notice 10%.
3. Although my 9700Pro has been rock solid for me on a KT266A and PE board, a visit to Rage 3d will show you not everyone shares my experience. You see less "you need psu X to run this vga " with nVidia
4. If you're a UT2003 junkie (me) the very low minimum fps issue with the Radeon 9700 Pro might tempt you to go FX. 10% less top end for much higher bottom end (like the 4600 had) might be enough to sway a person
Minimums EDIT: I guess I was wrong about this one, but the non ultra still isn't exactly a Xabre...
5. nVidia still owns market share and actually gained on ATI during the delay. That says a lot about their user loyalty, business saavy.

I think we need more info before we all start running through the streets bellowing,"nVidia is done! Expect doors to close soon!"
Some people need to calm down and realize nVidia is in a MUCH stronger and more diversified position than 3dfx was.

Those are some very good points rollo. There is a lot more to a video card manufacturer than their flagship card (try 98% of sales.) I am afraid nVidia is going to be around for a while, no matter how much all of you hate them.

 

[Ketchup]

Originally posted by: CoolLight

Originally posted by: ketchup79
I don't think you get it. Gainward's press release said they will have a card with a fan on it that makes about as much noise as a human heartbeat, in other words, you can't hear it, in 2D or in 3D. The card hardOCP got was a reference card, and the fan did not run at all in 2D, so the noise from that would be zero.

Also, there is no reason to Equalize the IQ, as nVidia's FSAA should work just fine when the card is actually released. It was released for review with beta drivers, just because nVidia wanted to give everyone an idea of how this card will perform. Can you imagine how bad ATI's flagship card with mature drivers would look if it lost out to the Geforce FX with beta drivers?

LOL on you. IF Gainward are so successful on cooling as they claimed, we don't need any CPU, GPU coolers anymore, just put several "human heartbeat" fan in your case, they will work as perfect as water cooling. Gainward just renovate and introduce a whole new generation of air cooling, if that doesn't mean a ridiculous huge heatsink attached.

If Zalman claimed it with a huge heatsink, I would believe them. Gainward, no way!

Big companies like Gainward don't lie in press releases, it just isn't done. They would have a very nice-sized lawsuit on their hands if they did. Why is it so hard for you (and many others) to believe that Gainward is telling the truth? I am sure you love ATI, but don't start bashing nVidia because they are releasing a card that is faster than your beloved 9700.

 

[nRollo]

"this has to be the worst launch of a video card (hell any computer hardware!) in the history of man."
No, I think that would be the V5-6K.

"If t he NV35 is as late and as big of a disappointment as the FX DustBuster, nVidia IS done. "
You may be an "elite member" but you don't know much about business apparently.

When is the last time Matrox had the fastest card? They're not "done". For a long time, ATI had by far the largest market share, and they never had the fastest card in those days. I don't think 3dfx ever had the highest market share, yet they often had the fastest cards.


Sheesh, how old are you?

 

[mrzed]

Big companies like Gainward don't lie in press releases, it just isn't done. They would have a very nice-sized lawsuit on their hands if they did. Why is it so hard for you (and many others) to believe that Gainward is telling the truth? I am sure you love ATI, but don't start bashing nVidia because they are releasing a card that is faster than your beloved 9700.

What exactly would be the basis of this suit? It is not the same as lying in advertising. In order for a lawsuit to be successful, there have to be damages of some sort.

Who would be damaged by this card on release not being 7db?

And there is some difference between lying and wishful thinking. If your theory about press releases and lawsuits is correct, why not go back and dig up a few of the Nvidia press releases about the FX from anytime before the last 4 weeks, then start one of your own?

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: Rollo
"In a year, nVidia has gone from being the market leader to being a distant, slightly pathetic pretender to the throne"
This isn't really true.
1. We don't know the HardOCP thing is true. Even if it is, they're still making 100,000 copies of nHoover that are faster than anything ATI has now.
2. The GF FX non ultra may be a competitive part with the 9700. The ultra was 10% faster, perhaps the non will be 10% slower. For the most part, at that level of performance, you can't really notice 10%.
3. Although my 9700Pro has been rock solid for me on a KT266A and PE board, a visit to Rage 3d will show you not everyone shares my experience. You see less "you need psu X to run this vga " with nVidia
4. If you're a UT2003 junkie (me) the very low minimum fps issue with the Radeon 9700 Pro might tempt you to go FX. 10% less top end for much higher bottom end (like the 4600 had) might be enough to sway a person
Minimums EDIT: I guess I was wrong about this one, but the non ultra still isn't exactly a Xabre...
5. nVidia still owns market share and actually gained on ATI during the delay. That says a lot about their user loyalty, business saavy.

I think we need more info before we all start running through the streets bellowing,"nVidia is done! Expect doors to close soon!"
Some people need to calm down and realize nVidia is in a MUCH stronger and more diversified position than 3dfx was.

1)It's not faster or did you miss the AT review here...also don't forget we can clock out 9700Pros very very high. This adds performance above that 10% you keep talking about.
2)It's not 10% faster...who runs any games today without some level of AA/AF? I don't and alot of users here don't either. That 10% is non existant at high resolutions or any iteration of AA/AF.
3)it's not really ATi's fault for the instability. Many boards that have issues are overvolting the Core or Vdim etc. It's more a BIOS or MB issue than a Video or AGP or even a PSU issue. I've used a 9700Pro on a Intel chipset (i845D) with a 300Watt no name brand PSU from CrapUSA.
4)I don't think the min fps is enough...the averages are still higher on the 9700Pro. This is what peple will look at in reality. Consumer A will walk into CompUSa or BestBuy and buy the 9700Pro because it scored better in UT2003 tests. The tests he looked at were averages. It's hard to measure the min in most games.
5)I've been reading little snipits of a major OEM dropping the FX line from their upcomming lineup. I dunno specifics just rumors of this kind. I don't think any ground was gained in the low end marketplace, but the bleeding edge consumer is no doubt ATI territory right now.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: mrzed

Big companies like Gainward don't lie in press releases, it just isn't done. They would have a very nice-sized lawsuit on their hands if they did. Why is it so hard for you (and many others) to believe that Gainward is telling the truth? I am sure you love ATI, but don't start bashing nVidia because they are releasing a card that is faster than your beloved 9700.

What exactly would be the basis of this suit? It is not the same as lying in advertising. In order for a lawsuit to be successful, there have to be damages of some sort.

Who would be damaged by this card on release not being 7db?

And there is some difference between lying and wishful thinking. If your theory about press releases and lawsuits is correct, why not go back and dig up a few of the Nvidia press releases about the FX from anytime before the last 4 weeks, then start one of your own?

OMG I sue Nvidia..they have made a video card that burst my eardrum!!! *sarcasm*

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo
"this has to be the worst launch of a video card (hell any computer hardware!) in the history of man."
No, I think that would be the V5-6K.

"If t he NV35 is as late and as big of a disappointment as the FX DustBuster, nVidia IS done. "
You may be an "elite member" but you don't know much about business apparently.

When is the last time Matrox had the fastest card? They're not "done". For a long time, ATI had by far the largest market share, and they never had the fastest card in those days. I don't think 3dfx ever had the highest market share, yet they often had the fastest cards.


Sheesh, how old are you?

I'll try again . . . IF nVidia is late AGAIN with NV35 (and it is as big a disappointment as the FX) they are "done" as market leader.

Clear enough?

 

[Ketchup]

Oh, it's clear enough, we just don't believe you!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ketchup79
Oh, it's clear enough, we just don't believe you!

No worries . . . I just think 400 million dollars bringing a product to market and then abandoning it is not good "business" and unworthy of market leader . . .

 

[Ketchup]

I agree, but it happens all the time. How much do you think the networks spend on sitcoms that don't make it?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ketchup79
I agree, but it happens all the time. How much do you think the networks spend on sitcoms that don't make it?

Nvidia isn't that huge of a company to take a near half-billion dollar "hit" like MS can do with X-box. A few hundred million here and a couple of hundred million dollars there sure adds up.

That's why I said a SECOND "flop" would be disasterous to their standing as market leader and perhaps even their survival. Anyway. . . it's all opinion . . . we'll see.

Anyway, I wish them well as I hope we have some competition for ATI.

 

[Ketchup]

My only complaint is I don't see a blunder yet like everyone else seems to. It hasn't been confirmed the FX has been canned, and we don't know if it will be any faster when it hits retail, and what kind of cooling it will have (unless all the cards use nVidia's reference design.) I just wish everyone would settle down and actually wait for the thing to hit the market. It almost sounds like everybody wants nVidia to fail.