IT jobs - why must all large raises come with changing companies?

[Homerboy]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: steppinthrax
Your employer can higher a kid and pay him half of what you make and he will probably do the job just as well (but require training).

Although I am not in IT, I just started my first real job and this statement really bothers me. It must be a very risky position to be in that a company could simply hire someone at half the cost who could do the job just as well.

I would hope that someone with several years experience in any professional field would have acquired enough experience that they could not be so easily replaced. Sure, your employer could always hire someone new, but would a kid really be able to do the job as effectively? Could you not develop experience that can't simply be taught to a new kid during a training session?

Everybody can be replaced in an instant. Nobody is THAT special that somebody else couldn't be brought in to immediately do their job.

Ever been through "reorgs"? Many times they'll lop multiple vice presidents off and half a department and a handful of middle managers, then replace them later.

Everybody can be replaced, rather quickly in fact.

There is a difference between a "reorg" and replacing you with some "kid off the street for half the pay"

 

[JasonCoder]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: steppinthrax
Your employer can higher a kid and pay him half of what you make and he will probably do the job just as well (but require training).

Although I am not in IT, I just started my first real job and this statement really bothers me. It must be a very risky position to be in that a company could simply hire someone at half the cost who could do the job just as well.

I would hope that someone with several years experience in any professional field would have acquired enough experience that they could not be so easily replaced. Sure, your employer could always hire someone new, but would a kid really be able to do the job as effectively? Could you not develop experience that can't simply be taught to a new kid during a training session?

Fact: someone just entering IT can double their salary within two years by turning mercenary. Probably take at least two job hops.

Fact: as already stated, most companies fail at keeping good people. But it's a balance, you can't keep asking for raises every time your skills get hot. That's just not how it is working for the man. If you want that kind of reward (which there's nothing wrong with) you have to go merc.

Myth: People that go mercenary are disloyal and not to be trusted. Loyalty is often a one way street nowadays. As in you're loyal and they don't give a shit about you.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: steppinthrax
Your employer can higher a kid and pay him half of what you make and he will probably do the job just as well (but require training).

Although I am not in IT, I just started my first real job and this statement really bothers me. It must be a very risky position to be in that a company could simply hire someone at half the cost who could do the job just as well.

I would hope that someone with several years experience in any professional field would have acquired enough experience that they could not be so easily replaced. Sure, your employer could always hire someone new, but would a kid really be able to do the job as effectively? Could you not develop experience that can't simply be taught to a new kid during a training session?

I work in IT, and I'm sure that my boss could easily hire someone out of college or from India for half of that they pay me. Who knows... with time they might be able to train that guy to do some of my more mundane job tasks almost as well as I do.

The real question is what they're going to do when that new guy screws up (as almost all new hires do), loses a few hundred thousand dollars worth of customer data, and doesn't know how to restore it. Hell... I wouldn't even be surprised if the new guy didn't even know that he needed to back it up in the first place.

All of a sudden, that new guy doesn't seem like such a bargain after all

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
I saw a job posting that I was qualified for, and on a whim sent in my resume. 1 hour later I had a reply email asking when would be a good time to call me. I get a phone call, immediately say "there's no point in going forward unless I hear what the pay is, I would prefer at least $X" where $X is 33% more than what I'm making now. Twenty minutes later I get another phone call offering me exactly $X (pending interviews I suppose). The new job would increase my commute from 25min to 1hr 15min.

If i was single, this would be a no brainer, but I'm married w/ a 2yo daughter, and we currently live close (within 10 minutes) to all of our immediate family...

unless you've just bought a house or your wife is working right there as well it still it a no-brainer. you go to work 5 or more times a week. how often do you see the rest of your family?


and yes, every job is like that. part of the reason the average worker changes jobs 5 times before 30 is because you get raises faster that way.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Allanv
The new job would increase my commute from 25min to 1hr 15min.

I do that trip twice a day I would never consider moving. The pay more than compensates for a couple of hours on the road.

Take that with sometimes i have to goto the other office which is 140 miles away.

What I did was negotiate starting work early and finishing early to miss the rush hour traffic

I have the same commute as you, and its definitely worth it.

 

[Phokus]

Hey joemonkey, i thought you were an engineer and i thought you liked your employer?

 

[amicold]

The commute seems it would be worth it, that's an additional third of your current income.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: amicold
The commute seems it would be worth it, that's an additional third of your current income.

After gas and maintenance (the car will need a LOT more maintenance) it's hardly worth it given that you effectively don't have a life anymore when you spend that much going to/from work. After all is said and done I spend about 8500 per year after taxes, just to get to/from work.

So for only 22K more, it isn't worth it.

 

[sygyzy]

Originally posted by: Anubis
you coudl always tell your current employer that company X will give you 33% more then what you currently make and see what they do to keep you

That's great advice if you don't expect to be working there 6 months later.

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: Phokus
Hey joemonkey, i thought you were an engineer and i thought you liked your employer?

I am (if you consider an MCSE a true engineer), and I do. However, if they aren't willing to pay what I'm worth, and someone else is, why shouldn't I leave? Isn't everyone just in their job until a better offer comes along?

Originally posted by: ElFenix
unless you've just bought a house or your wife is working right there as well it still it a no-brainer. you go to work 5 or more times a week. how often do you see the rest of your family?

We've lived in this house a little over 4 years. My wife works as a nurse in a flex position right now, only works when we can get a sitter (my mom or her mom mainly).

Originally posted by: JD50
I have the same commute as you, and its definitely worth it.

I had an hourish commute before, and getting home 1.5 hours before my daughter goes to bed vs. getting home 3 hours before my daughter goes to bed is a huge difference. My dad was home at 7pm or so every night when i was growing up, and I would prefer to be around more for my daughter than my dad was for me. However, time spent with family vs. quality of life provided by more $ is what this is really about i suppose

 

[nageov3t]

Dear Boss,

I've recently had a new job offer willing to pay me X; while I enjoy my current position, I'd really need Y to stay on. Please advise if I should start writing my letter of resignation or not.

XOXO

Joemonkey

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: Homerboy

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: steppinthrax
Your employer can higher a kid and pay him half of what you make and he will probably do the job just as well (but require training).

Although I am not in IT, I just started my first real job and this statement really bothers me. It must be a very risky position to be in that a company could simply hire someone at half the cost who could do the job just as well.

I would hope that someone with several years experience in any professional field would have acquired enough experience that they could not be so easily replaced. Sure, your employer could always hire someone new, but would a kid really be able to do the job as effectively? Could you not develop experience that can't simply be taught to a new kid during a training session?

Everybody can be replaced in an instant. Nobody is THAT special that somebody else couldn't be brought in to immediately do their job.

Ever been through "reorgs"? Many times they'll lop multiple vice presidents off and half a department and a handful of middle managers, then replace them later.

Everybody can be replaced, rather quickly in fact.

There is a difference between a "reorg" and replacing you with some "kid off the street for half the pay"

tell that to the circuit guys that were making $12-15 and hour and were replaced by the guys making $8 an hour earlier this year...or they could get their old job back at the lower pay rate...

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: steppinthrax
Your employer can higher a kid and pay him half of what you make and he will probably do the job just as well (but require training).

Although I am not in IT, I just started my first real job and this statement really bothers me. It must be a very risky position to be in that a company could simply hire someone at half the cost who could do the job just as well.

I would hope that someone with several years experience in any professional field would have acquired enough experience that they could not be so easily replaced. Sure, your employer could always hire someone new, but would a kid really be able to do the job as effectively? Could you not develop experience that can't simply be taught to a new kid during a training session?

I work in IT, and I'm sure that my boss could easily hire someone out of college or from India for half of that they pay me. Who knows... with time they might be able to train that guy to do some of my more mundane job tasks almost as well as I do.

The real question is what they're going to do when that new guy screws up (as almost all new hires do), loses a few hundred thousand dollars worth of customer data, and doesn't know how to restore it. Hell... I wouldn't even be surprised if the new guy didn't even know that he needed to back it up in the first place.

All of a sudden, that new guy doesn't seem like such a bargain after all

i work in IT as well as business systems analyst...in our industry, it is still cheaper to the company to pay someone in India to code it the first time, and then fix it twice then it is to pay someone in the States to do it right first time...if the company cares more about the bottom line than customer service, they have no problem making that decision.

 

[videogames101]

Ask for compensation for the increase in your travel costs.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: JD50
I have the same commute as you, and its definitely worth it.

I had an hourish commute before, and getting home 1.5 hours before my daughter goes to bed vs. getting home 3 hours before my daughter goes to bed is a huge difference. My dad was home at 7pm or so every night when i was growing up, and I would prefer to be around more for my daughter than my dad was for me. However, time spent with family vs. quality of life provided by more $ is what this is really about i suppose

Yea, pretty much. It also depends on the hours that you work. My commute is 1 hour and 20 mins with no traffic, and I always work off hours (either come in before 6 or work nights). If I lived closer to work but came in during normal hours I'd have just as long of a commute but I'd have about half the house, half the land, and not very good schools for my kids, or my wife would have to go back to work and someone else would be raising my kids(been there done that, no thanks). So for me, its worth it, but I can understand how a lot of people wouldn't want to do it.

 

[SunnyD]

Last raise I got was on the order of about 18% if I recall correctly, and that was me simply because I was shopping for a new job and presented an competing offer to my boss who sent it up the chain with my intention of staying if they would match the offer. I ended up leaving 7 months later for another job anyway (along with 20% more in pay).

All three of my raises at my previous job were double-digit percentage raises. You do NOT have to change jobs to get a decent hike in pay.

 

[Gunslinger08]

I've gotten double digit percentage raises two years in a row. Then again, I've done things that I won't be doing every year (certifications in our field, title change, etc).

 

[Allanv]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: Allanv
The new job would increase my commute from 25min to 1hr 15min.

I do that trip twice a day I would never consider moving. The pay more than compensates for a couple of hours on the road.

Take that with sometimes i have to goto the other office which is 140 miles away.

What I did was negotiate starting work early and finishing early to miss the rush hour traffic

Depends on how much you make I guess. As a consultant, hours on the road are lost billable hours, and I spend about 3 hours on the road now to travel 25 or so miles combined

I make a lot more thab I would working in my home town, that said all hours on the road are NON billable. However I do get 700 miles to a tank of Fuel. So that means the fuel bill is low and I can offset that against tax.

 

[kt]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Last raise I got was on the order of about 18% if I recall correctly, and that was me simply because I was shopping for a new job and presented an competing offer to my boss who sent it up the chain with my intention of staying if they would match the offer. I ended up leaving 7 months later for another job anyway (along with 20% more in pay).

All three of my raises at my previous job were double-digit percentage raises. You do NOT have to change jobs to get a decent hike in pay.

That may backfire at some point in your career. Your future employers will look at your job history and question whether you are worth their time. Your history of leaving a company will have a direct reflect on you. Sure you can come up with a great lie, but your job history will still be a tell tell sign (ie: employment length at each company and salary history).

 

[theeedude]

I am on the market for that exact reason. Many employers simply don't want to deal with the reality of the market when it comes to current employees, and the only way to get them to deal with it is to either leave or threaten to leave. Then they try to throw money at you on the way out to get you to stay. This bias for being willing to spend more money to bring in new employees than to retain existing ones is a bit silly considering how much money and time the companies have to spend training a new employee.

 

[Pothead]

Originally posted by: kt

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Last raise I got was on the order of about 18% if I recall correctly, and that was me simply because I was shopping for a new job and presented an competing offer to my boss who sent it up the chain with my intention of staying if they would match the offer. I ended up leaving 7 months later for another job anyway (along with 20% more in pay).

All three of my raises at my previous job were double-digit percentage raises. You do NOT have to change jobs to get a decent hike in pay.

That may backfire at some point in your career. Your future employers will look at your job history and question whether you are worth their time. Your history of leaving a company will have a direct reflect on you. Sure you can come up with a great lie, but your job history will still be a tell tell sign (ie: employment length at each company and salary history).

Some of us in IT actually do get double digit raises without getting promitions. It's a combination of a company and a person's work ethics.

 

[theeedude]

While we are on the subject, what's appropriate attire for IT (engineering) job interview in Silicon Valley? I heard khakis and button down shirt is the way to go, no tie.
Any comments?

 

[StageLeft]

My company has annual raises (normally), which appear tied close to inflation, though I have to say my free-market earnability goes up much quicker than that. I guess I'd need a promotion to get more money, since they do have some sense of pay grades/categories that would keep people somewhat locked into things. However, going from a 25 min to 75 min commute doesn't sound fun, and there is always the niceness of the known (if you like your job). In my case, my company is almost immediately next to a gym, so every single lunch hour I workout. This is a luxury they don't pay for but that I would need to receive at least a few hundred bucks/month to give up.

I do that trip twice a day I would never consider moving. The pay more than compensates for a couple of hours on the road.

Two hours is a damn lot of time to give up each day!

Most employers don't take easily to threats like this. Unless your job function has an incredibile amount of knowledge to a point if you left shit would erupt. I remember an employee did this and our boss simply said OK....., turn in your laptop, thumb drive, keys..... If the boss does increase your pay you may end up like what Glavinsolo said. Because think of it like this. Your employer can higher a kid and pay him half of what you make and he will probably do the job just as well (but require training).

If it's done in a non-threatening way and slanted like "I hate--HATE--to leave you guys, but I can make more money elsewhere and help pad my kids' college, etc. is there anything we can do to keep me here, as I want to stay so bad?". In regards to a trained kid doing what he does, well then he's not that important anyway. If a kid with some training could do what I do I'd be scared for my job, but I know one cannot.

Everybody can be replaced, rather quickly in fact.

Yes. But not by a trained kid.

This is all a bit silly anyway. Joemonkey is seemingly considering this after an afternoon of job hunting. It's very possible that there are other jobs that would give a similar raise without a terrible commute, so he'd be well served to hang around and keep an eye out for them instead.

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
This is all a bit silly anyway. Joemonkey is seemingly considering this after an afternoon of job hunting. It's very possible that there are other jobs that would give a similar raise without a terrible commute, so he'd be well served to hang around and keep an eye out for them instead.

I live in central Kentucky, about an hour from Lexington. not a whole heck of a lot here in BFE for those in IT, and the jobs that ARE close can pay low because they know to get a higher paying job you'd have to drive that hour to Lexington or surrounding areas, or move there. Lexington has Yum Brands, Lexmark, and Humana for example, and Georgetown is close to Lexington and that's where the Toyota plant that makes all the Camry's is located.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: spidey07

That's not a raise. That is a promotion and usually carries a substantial bump in pay, at least 10%.

I got a promotion while here once... what a joke that salary increase was. I really need to get outta here bad. The last time I got a real raise was when I switched into this company 8 years ago... 30%

SWITCHING COMPANIES FTW, but it depends on your priorities for the foreseeable future.