issue shifting into first

[cprince]

Car: '87 BMW E30 2.7L I6 225K+ 5spd manual

I just replaced the clutch slave cylinder and bleed the system.

Occasionally, from complete stop, I put the car into first, but it seems like something is not catching as the car moves very slowly. It's also more difficult to put the car into first or second versus 3rd, 4th, and 5th. I read somewhere that it's better to put the car into first before it comes to a complete stop, but I don't want to hold the clutch down the whole time waiting for the light to change. Any suggestions? Thanks.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Um, there's no mechanical reason that the car would move "slowly". If 1st wasn't engaging you'd have a grinding sound from the dog teeth but it wouldn't move "slowly". The only thing that would cause the car to move "slowly" would be clutch slip. Or 1st is disengaged entirely and the car is simply rolling forward from gravity.

As for the difficulty, that's because you have 225,000 miles on the transmission and the synchros for 1st and 2nd are worn. Perfectly normal for an older manual transmission.

ZV

 

[AMCRambler]

I agree with Zenmervolt. Your clutch is most likely worn out and needs to be replaced. I know on my old Ford I was looking at 1200-1500 bucks for the dealer to do one. I don't know what a BMW would cost, but get ready to open up your wallet, chum.

 

[cprince]

Originally posted by: AMCRambler
I agree with Zenmervolt. Your clutch is most likely worn out and needs to be replaced. I know on my old Ford I was looking at 1200-1500 bucks for the dealer to do one. I don't know what a BMW would cost, but get ready to open up your wallet, chum.

But I don't understand why it happens occasionally--like a hit and miss thing--and not all the time. Also, reverse works fine--no slipping.

 

[boomerang]

How was it acting before you replaced the slave and bled the system?

 

[bruceb]

I agree with Zenmer and AMCRambler .. your clutch and sycnhros are shot. Replace them, along with a new pilot bearing and throwout bearing and your tranny should work like brand new. Depending on what they see when they remove the clutch, you may need the flywheel resurfaced as well. You are looking at about $1000 or so for all this work.

 

[cprince]

pretty much the same way. I noticed that it gotten a little better since I replaced the slave cylinder.

 

[cprince]

Originally posted by: bruceb
I agree with Zenmer and AMCRambler .. your clutch and sycnhros are shot. Replace them, along with a new pilot bearing and throwout bearing and your tranny should work like brand new. Depending on what they see when they remove the clutch, you may need the flywheel resurfaced as well. You are looking at about $1000 or so for all this work.

I only paid $500 for the car--so I'm not paying $1000 for somebody else to do it. I want to do it myself, but I don't know how to(cheaply) get the car off the ground high enough to take out the transmission.

Edit: I also like to do it myself because it would be a good learning experience and fun

 

[bruceb]

You can get the car off the ground either with ramps or jack stands and a floor jack. Consult service manual for proper support locations.
To pull a manual tranny out, you will need about 18 or so inches of height to get it under the frame rails.

What you do is this:

Disconnect battery
Remove clutch slave clyinder
Jack up and support car
Remove driveshaft (for a rear wheel drive car)
Remove starter
Remove shifter from inside the car
On some cars, part of the exhaust is in the way.
Remove transmisission to bell housing bolts. (support tranny with a jack and chains)
Remove tranny crossmember.
Lower tranny out of car.
Remove clutch pressure plate, clutch disc.
Remove pilot bearing (special puller needed to get it out) .. replace with new one
Remove throw out bearing from clutch release fork .. replace with new one

To install, tap in new pilot bearing, then using a clutch alignment tool
install the clutch disc and pressure plate. Tighten per sequence & torque value in shop manual.
Reinstall tranny .. you will need to play with the angle and also rotate the output shaft in
order to line up the clutch splines.
Reinstall starter, exhaust and drive shaft, shifter, battery, slave

As you can see it is labor intensive, but fairly easy once you did it a time or two.

Note: If this is a front wheel drive car, it is much more complex to get it out.

FYI: A mechanic will bill you for about 5 to 6 hours for this job. And that does
not include overhauling the synchros inside the transmission. Or parts

 

[RGUN]

Change the fluid in the transmission. If the clutch were slipping that bad you would definitely notice symptoms of it slipping at higher throttle openings. My car is relatively new and sometimes has difficulty grabbing first.

Something to help, just before you shift into first, leave the transmission in neutral, let out the clutch, depress the clutch, then shift into first - it should be much easier.

 

[cprince]

Originally posted by: RGUN
Change the fluid in the transmission. If the clutch were slipping that bad you would definitely notice symptoms of it slipping at higher throttle openings. My car is relatively new and sometimes has difficulty grabbing first.

Something to help, just before you shift into first, leave the transmission in neutral, let out the clutch, depress the clutch, then shift into first - it should be much easier.

thanks for the advice. I tried to change the fluid yesterday, but the drain plug is stuck pretty good.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: RGUN
Change the fluid in the transmission. If the clutch were slipping that bad you would definitely notice symptoms of it slipping at higher throttle openings. My car is relatively new and sometimes has difficulty grabbing first.

Something to help, just before you shift into first, leave the transmission in neutral, let out the clutch, depress the clutch, then shift into first - it should be much easier.

Changing the fluid in a manual transmission will not cause the car to move "slowly" when taking off in first. The only two reasons for that symptom are a clutch that is not fully engaging or 1st being missed entirely and the car rolling forward in neutral.

ZV

 

[RGUN]

I was not addressing that, I was addressing difficulties to get the car into gear. I want to know if the one problem is just causing a perception of another.

 

[thomsbrain]

If you did what RGUN suggested at a stoplight in a car with no synchros, you'd grind the gears like crazy. So don't do what he suggested.

As for the synchros, leave the car in gear until you reach a complete stop, and don't let off the clutch. Shifting into first should be a lot easier then because stopping the car in gear stops both the input and output shafts. Taking it out of gear at speed or letting off the clutch in neutral leaves the input shaft spinning and makes the synchros' job a lot harder because you are relying on the synchros to grind that shaft to a complete halt before the gear can be engaged. It wears them out faster and if they are worn out (seems to be the case), they may not be up to the task anymore. So the solution is to not give them that task. It's like the old doctor joke: Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." Doctor: "Don't do that."

Changing the transmission fluid never hurts for shift smoothness, though. Some cars need it changed pretty frequently. If the plug is stuck, try tapping the end of your wrench with a rubber mallet or a hammer with a shirt wrapped around it or something. Sometimes they just need a sharp hit to come loose.

 

[RGUN]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
If you did what RGUN suggested at a stoplight in a car with no synchros, you'd grind the gears like crazy. So don't do what he suggested.

As for the synchros, leave the car in gear until you reach a complete stop, and don't let off the clutch. Shifting into first should be a lot easier then because stopping the car in gear stops both the input and output shafts. Taking it out of gear at speed or letting off the clutch in neutral leaves the input shaft spinning and makes the synchros' job a lot harder because you are relying on the synchros to grind that shaft to a complete halt before the gear can be engaged. It wears them out faster and if they are worn out (seems to be the case), they may not be up to the task anymore. So the solution is to not give them that task. It's like the old doctor joke: Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." Doctor: "Don't do that."

Changing the transmission fluid never hurts for shift smoothness, though. Some cars need it changed pretty frequently. If the plug is stuck, try tapping the end of your wrench with a rubber mallet or a hammer with a shirt wrapped around it or something. Sometimes they just need a sharp hit to come loose.

Thanks -- anyway, try what I mentioned. Often times my car will absolutely refuse to go into first gear, from a dead stop while I maintained clutch pressure, or from jumping in and starting it, wont go into first. Double clutching it into first always gets it going, so see if that works for you.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
If you did what RGUN suggested at a stoplight in a car with no synchros, you'd grind the gears like crazy. So don't do what he suggested.

As for the synchros, leave the car in gear until you reach a complete stop, and don't let off the clutch. Shifting into first should be a lot easier then because stopping the car in gear stops both the input and output shafts. Taking it out of gear at speed or letting off the clutch in neutral leaves the input shaft spinning and makes the synchros' job a lot harder because you are relying on the synchros to grind that shaft to a complete halt before the gear can be engaged. It wears them out faster and if they are worn out (seems to be the case), they may not be up to the task anymore. So the solution is to not give them that task. It's like the old doctor joke: Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." Doctor: "Don't do that."

What the OP is describing is a "lock out" that is due to the dog teeth not being in a position to mesh perfectly. This happens quite often in some cars when attempting to engage reverse from a complete stop (as reverse is often a straight-cut gear without synchronization, at least in older cars, and, as such, is more prone to being difficult to engage when the vehicle is stopped).

What RGUN suggested, namely to release the clutch briefly to spin the input shaft, absolutely will help and is good advice provided that you don't slam the lever into gear too quickly afterward. By spinning up the input shaft, you give the dog teeth a chance to align in such a way that they mesh. Even on a non-synchro transmission this can help, though you have to wait a second or two before you can try again to allow the input shaft to come back to rest. Since the OP's car will definitely have a fully synchronized transmission the suggestion should be fine. What wears the synchros is rapid shifting, not necessarily big differences in rotational speed for the input shaft and a slow, smooth shift into 1st while the input shaft is spinning slowly should not be an issue even for moderately worn synchros.

RGUN, you make a good point about your initial recommendation and I was too trigger-happy in my objection.

ZV

 

[cprince]

Thank you all very much for your suggestions. This is the first time that I have driven a manual transmission car--and that's why I bought the car. The clutch is definitely worn because I have to let the pedal almost all the way out before it engages. I noticed that it slips when I rev up the engine and then release the clutch pedal. If I increase the gas while releasing the clutch pedal, then the car drives fine. I'll drive it until it's completely worn out and put a new clutch in myself. It'll be a good learning experience

 

[Possessed Freak]

If I am at a stop, I find it easier to shift into first by shifting into second then to first. But my problem is the shifter just not sliding in (almost like it is hitting a joint and refusing to go to the left).

My "Mighty Saturn" is also the first stick shift I have driven and it is up there in mileage so is probably experiencing the same wear issues as yours. (I plan to kill mine in a 24 Hour Lemons event next year)

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: cprince
Thank you all very much for your suggestions. This is the first time that I have driven a manual transmission car--and that's why I bought the car. The clutch is definitely worn because I have to let the pedal almost all the way out before it engages. I noticed that it slips when I rev up the engine and then release the clutch pedal. If I increase the gas while releasing the clutch pedal, then the car drives fine. I'll drive it until it's completely worn out and put a new clutch in myself. It'll be a good learning experience

Go out on a highway and put the car in 5th at cruising speed. Then floor the throttle without downshifting. If there is slip then it means the clutch is completely worn out now (or that it's mal-adjusted).

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Possessed Freak
If I am at a stop, I find it easier to shift into first by shifting into second then to first. But my problem is the shifter just not sliding in (almost like it is hitting a joint and refusing to go to the left).

My "Mighty Saturn" is also the first stick shift I have driven and it is up there in mileage so is probably experiencing the same wear issues as yours. (I plan to kill mine in a 24 Hour Lemons event next year)

In your case, it sounds like the linkage is slightly knackered. If it wasn't sliding forward into 1st, it would sound like the dog teeth lock-out I described earlier, but if it's not even wanting to move left then it's linkage.

ZV

 

[cprince]

I drove it to work and back today. On the way to work it seemed okay, but I went to an empty parking lot to test out the clutch and it also seemed to be catching. However, on my way home, the clutch slips big time. I was revving the engine at 4K on 4th gear at 40mph. So maybe the clutch slips when it's hot? Does this even make sense?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: cprince
I drove it to work and back today. On the way to work it seemed okay, but I went to an empty parking lot to test out the clutch and it also seemed to be catching. However, on my way home, the clutch slips big time. I was revving the engine at 4K on 4th gear at 40mph. So maybe the clutch slips when it's hot? Does this even make sense?

Yup, heat will make a clutch slip more. It's probably slipping a little bit all the time and getting worse as it heats up.

Time for a new clutch. You'll want to replace the pressure plate and throw-out bearing at the same time, and be sure to have the flywheel resurfaced. Generally you will want to use new flywheel bolts as well rather than re-using the existing ones.

ZV

 

[cprince]

thanks for the replies. Do you have any suggestions on how to cheaply and safely lift the car high enough to pull out the transmission? I don't really want to spend $1K on a hydraulic scissor lift.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

jack and 4 jack stands.