I don't care what you say anymore because you're incapable of having a rational conversation regarding Israel. But I do respect your perserverance, good or bad. I think I'll feel sorry for you for now.
I don't care what you say anymore because you're incapable of having a rational conversation regarding Israel. But I do respect your perserverance, good or bad. I think I'll feel sorry for you for now.
Isreal was not officially declared a State by the UN till 1947! Isreal never fought a war trying to wipe out all the Arabs. It was the Arabs that wanted to wipe out all of the Isreali people. Lets get real and look at reality. In the 70's the Palestinians would not even recognize Isreal as a country, and most countries still have a problem with that. Isreal won the war, so the land is theirs to do with as they want. To the victor goes the spoils of war.
Lets see at the same time, they defeated Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and the Palestinians who were all plotting against them. The other countries had all the oil and all the money and they who were not fighting Isreal were supporting the War against Isreal. With all this going on, you really think Isreal stood a chance without our help?
It is time for everyone to realise what the real truth is. Dont be brainwashed by the stupid media. Are you some kind of zombie slave to your TV? Learn to think for yourself!
Lets see at the same time, they defeated Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and the Palestinians who were all plotting against them. The other countries had all the oil and all the money and they who were not fighting Isreal were supporting the War against Isreal. With all this going on, you really think Isreal stood a chance without our help?
It is time for everyone to realise what the real truth is. Dont be brainwashed by the stupid media. Are you some kind of zombie slave to your TV? Learn to think for yourself!
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
:roll: US media is nothing but one big israeli government PR campaign, quit being such a guilt ridden PC american wasteoid and lose the propaganda machine already, you folks are not only wrong on just about everything but you make us look like manipulated fools with this pro-israeli regime one-sided garbage.
Get up to speed with the rest of the world, it is a two-way street.
MiniDoom
Diamond Member
- Jan 5, 2004
- 5,305
- 0
- 76
I love how all these Americans and Canadians (Steeple and Smackdown and others) living on stolen Indian land b!tch about Israel stealing land from poor Arabs who are treated worse by their neighboring fellow Muslim nations. If you want me to take anything you all say seriously you would lead by example and move back to where your family came from. Otherwise you have no right to judge Israel. Yes Israel has done allot wrong and I get sick when I hear about innocent Palestinians getting killed, but they could have a better life if they didn?t buy into the radical Islam hatred.
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
What part of "It is a two-way street" did you not understand? The blame falls on both parties shoulders and I as an american have nothing to do with the genocide of native americans, that was a looong time ago and I was not even born here anyhow.
MiniDoom
Diamond Member
- Jan 5, 2004
- 5,305
- 0
- 76
Two way street? All I ever see you post in is anti-Israeli threads. You never condemn Palestinians attacks on innocent Israelis. There are plenty of Israelis who second-generation and didn?t choose to live there. It?s now their home. All I?m saying is I wish you would be fair minded, and have the passion to fight for equal right in your home country first. I?m sure if Indigenous Americans started to blowup restaurants and clubs you would understand what Israelis have to deal with.
BTW ? are you or your government really innocent from crimes committed against Indians? Yes the genocide happened many years ago but most tribes will never get their home land back. They where pushed to undesirable places like North Dakota and Oklahoma. The still need to answer to the US government and the Bureau of Indian Affairs under Clinton stole $40 Billion.
This is typical: when you have nothing to say, just assert that there is this big Zionist conspiracy; doing that puts you in the same group with other users here (such as Jhhnn), and with the President of Iran.
Perhaps you dont recall the Al-Durah incidient, but I doubt much of the media reported the other findings regarding the staging. We don't even need to go that far back, as the recent conflict in Lebanon is a perfect example where the media was nothing more than Hezbollah's bitch, accepting fabricated events as news (the ambulance incident), publishing photoshopped and "mis-labeled" photos, and taking guided tours by Hezbollah media guys to learn the truth. The only person I remember being upfront about what was going on was CNN's Anderson Cooper.
Seriously, the only thing you don't see on the media here is the hate propaganda going on in the Middle East, whether it is against jews, or whether it targets the West in general, or the USA specifically. However, there was a rare exception.
I'm extremely dissapointed and sad at what has happened - NOT ONE SINGLE POINT DISCUSSED THE TOPIC AT HAND.
Why did you not address the main topic at hand, and instead attempt (And successfuly) to derail a VERY important topic. Discuss about THIS topic - not jumping to "Defensive Mode"...the sad part is I tried to write this to engage debate and constructive discussion.
Maybe the hardest part that two sides with different goals can never actually reach an agreement is because 99.9% jumps to the same predictible issues --> something which occurs on BOTH SIDES
Why did you not address the main topic at hand, and instead attempt (And successfuly) to derail a VERY important topic. Discuss about THIS topic - not jumping to "Defensive Mode"...the sad part is I tried to write this to engage debate and constructive discussion.
Maybe the hardest part that two sides with different goals can never actually reach an agreement is because 99.9% jumps to the same predictible issues --> something which occurs on BOTH SIDES
The one issue you raise brings a lot of baggage with it; as you can witness by Lemon law's remark reply, there are some assumptions that people take for granted.
I raised an important question that none of the people has so far dared touch: was the land supposed to be kept in a pristine state?
Furthermore, the link I provided gave some important insight into development since 1967, but that is usually ignored, and all we keep hearing is "stolen land", etc, etc.
Why do Israeli people always have to defend Israel no matter what? Never have I seen a negative comment from an Israeli about Israel. It must be perfect.
Stop caring what the rest of the world thinks. Why do you all have to make it so the world has to feel sorry for you? I say this because I do not see one negative comment about Israel from any Israeli. Why the hell do you all have to defend it all the time?
You have the biggest economic system in the general area and you have a massive army. Your economy is not based off of oil and you are pretty much a democracy. With those advancements you need to take the BS people spit at you. Otherwise you cannot be labeled in the same category as the mighty U.S, who starts illegal wars and is run by an idiot. See it's not so bad saying negative things about your country.. I mean it's true. Doesn't make me less patriotic.
You want to make a difference then start with your neighbors. We are the U.S. Stop relying on us to hold your hand. You're all grown up and living at home with a Ferrari. Time to move out and let go of our hand, but maybe we don't want to let go. In that case shame on us for holdidng you back from growing up.
My point is, do not sit here and justify 100% all the military actions Israel has taken against the Arabs. If this is the case then someone needs to hire Israel to train the U.S military.
No country is perfect. No leader is perfect. Every country has flaws. No military is perfect.
& in most cases
No one side's actions are entirely justified over the other sides. Fighting wrong with wrong is childish (read above)
Stop caring what the rest of the world thinks. Why do you all have to make it so the world has to feel sorry for you? I say this because I do not see one negative comment about Israel from any Israeli. Why the hell do you all have to defend it all the time?
You have the biggest economic system in the general area and you have a massive army. Your economy is not based off of oil and you are pretty much a democracy. With those advancements you need to take the BS people spit at you. Otherwise you cannot be labeled in the same category as the mighty U.S, who starts illegal wars and is run by an idiot. See it's not so bad saying negative things about your country.. I mean it's true. Doesn't make me less patriotic.
You want to make a difference then start with your neighbors. We are the U.S. Stop relying on us to hold your hand. You're all grown up and living at home with a Ferrari. Time to move out and let go of our hand, but maybe we don't want to let go. In that case shame on us for holdidng you back from growing up.
My point is, do not sit here and justify 100% all the military actions Israel has taken against the Arabs. If this is the case then someone needs to hire Israel to train the U.S military.
No country is perfect. No leader is perfect. Every country has flaws. No military is perfect.
& in most cases
No one side's actions are entirely justified over the other sides. Fighting wrong with wrong is childish (read above)
We are talking about how 40% of the settlement land that WAS analyzed was PRIVATE PALESTINIAN LAND.
This does NOT deal with
a) Jordan or Egypt's actions b) War on Terrorists from Israeli perspective or the Resistance from the Palestinian Perspective c) Recognition of Israel by various Arab Groups.
If it does please explain CLEARLY why Israel is allowed to take the land, because honestly just because "The Egyptians left it alone and Israel developed portions of it" does not mean that it revokes the fact of who the land really belongs to. Its absolutely irrelevant.
We are looking at land that is defined by Israel as private Palestinian land. And we have to remember this comes from the Israeli Government - the same government that uses/used tactics to attempt to disenfranchise Palestinians in the past, so if they say the land belong to Palestinians then we can assume its a very safe bet that it is indeed land that belongs to them!
It doesn't matter whether or NOT Egypt treated it like crap or whether Jordan did, or whether Israel developed it. Israel developing part of the land does not vindicate it from the fact that it is blatantly building on Palestinian land.
Look dna - unlike some other rabit pro israel supporters (Which you definitely are because I haven't noticed any instances in which you were critical for Israel's actions (if you are then I'm sorry I didn't notice)) you at least spend a lot of time to discuss and search for links about a topic in which you are indeed passionate about - which shows that you are interested in dialoge which I think is the first great step.
But you have to realize that certain of Israel's actions are absolutely wrong and reprehensible. This is the only way that a real bridge can be made. You cannot possibly justify or rationalize why Israel has the right to engage in these blatantly absurd actions and still be considered an honest broker for peace. Israel isn't purely an angel - and neither are the Palestinians. The truth isn't that the Palestinians are all terrorists, or that many of Israel's actions amount to genocide...the real situation is somewhere in between. Actions of the Palestinians, such as Suicide bombings, are morally bankrupt and should NOT be encouraged (We can understand WHY they may lead to that, but nowhere does such an action imply acceptance of that sick act) and actions of Israel show that it truly is in a quest to absorb as much land as possible at the expense of Palestinians, and these actions should never be defended. Learning to recognize at least some realities in a situation that can contain a lot of grey is the only way to get at the real core of the issue...
and any real peace is going to demand the 1967 lines, regardless of the side that went to war...because amends ultimately have to be made - and for Israel to live in security would need the Palestinians to live in their own secure atmosphere., so that corrupt Arab governments cannot point to Israel as the malady to all of their respective people's problems.
Now if you can clearly explain to me why Israel's actions are justified in building on private Palestinian land I would be glad to listen - but please stay on topic. If you want to think about it more -- go ahead. Peace will never be achieved unless the Palestinians get a fair deal as well (And Israel isn't going anywhere and has more than what it originally was given)
Not sure but doesn't the fact that God gave you land sort of preempt any claim to privately own land by those who did not receive the gift?
I don't think God needs to wait for the close of escrow for a free and clear title search.
I don't think God needs to wait for the close of escrow for a free and clear title search.
This is precisely the problem with the issue: it lacks perspective. A bombastic affirmation that 40% of the land is "stolen" is no more than a case of "lies, damn lies, and statistics".
The West Bank is 5640 km² worth of land, and those "40%" are in fact 61 km², which translates to 1%.
Sure, you can assert this topic doesn't deal with other matters, and that we should focus only on expropriated land. However, just like in the case of eminent domain, an individual's property is taken (with compensation) in order to benefit a larger group. I'm not trying to make a direct comparison, but a missing piece of information is whether the land was previously used, and how it was used.
See, no matter what you wish to talk about, you end up at the old premise that the situation is Israel's fault, and that if we were back at the 1967 lines, then we will achieve utopia.
Well, there were 20 years worth of pre-1967 lines, where there was no advancement towards a "Palestinian State"; the PLO and pre-PLO organizations operating from the West Bank were not trying to get a state, because if they were, then they should've been fighting th Jordanians. An intersting pargraph in Wikipedia says a lot:
I know you're just going to jump up and say this is irrelevant, but I believe it is very much relevant. I agree that as of 1967 the residents of the West Bank were in limbo, but what we should ask if whether the "loss" of 1% of land was worth the advancements made after the area ended up under Israel's control, and prior to meddling by the PLO and other radical groups that didn't do much beisdes creating security issues that led to tough Israeli responses.
Dna, you are right in thinking that people on this board are rabidly (and unreasonably) anti-Israeli. Israel is simply a country in a very difficult geopolitical position, and because of that has made some mistakes. They aren't evil, they are just trying to survive.
Hell, look at what America did after 9/11. That was one terrorist attack, and from that we've invaded two countries, imprisoned hundreds (thousands?) of people without trial, tried to abrogate the geneva convention, and suspended a chunk of our own due process. Compared to that and considering what Israel has been through, they have been the model of maturity and restraint.
That doesn't change the fact that regardless of who "owns" the land, (through reference to the UN partition, or through the power of Jeebus) chances are good that in order to achieve any lasting peace, Camp David style, Israel will end up returning that land to someone else. The act of building these settlements on it, regardless of how much that may be their legal right to do so, is an act that makes that land for peace process more difficult. That's why it's a bad idea.
Also, improvements made in the west bank is probably a bad way to justify occupation. It is also how the european powers justified colonialism... to save those poor dirty africans from themselves.
Hell, look at what America did after 9/11. That was one terrorist attack, and from that we've invaded two countries, imprisoned hundreds (thousands?) of people without trial, tried to abrogate the geneva convention, and suspended a chunk of our own due process. Compared to that and considering what Israel has been through, they have been the model of maturity and restraint.
That doesn't change the fact that regardless of who "owns" the land, (through reference to the UN partition, or through the power of Jeebus) chances are good that in order to achieve any lasting peace, Camp David style, Israel will end up returning that land to someone else. The act of building these settlements on it, regardless of how much that may be their legal right to do so, is an act that makes that land for peace process more difficult. That's why it's a bad idea.
Also, improvements made in the west bank is probably a bad way to justify occupation. It is also how the european powers justified colonialism... to save those poor dirty africans from themselves.
I never stated 40% of West Bank. I said 40% of Settlement land...land which has settlements built on it...that seemed fairly clear to me.
The reason I say this topic doesn't deal with that - is because ultimately those are rationalizations for the theft of this land, which you can't dance around. Whether or not the land was developed does not justify its taking. Whether or not the land was "useful" to people does NOT matter - because you simply can't say what it was used for. Remember, Palestinians were disenfranchised from land through this tactic --> locking them out for 3 years and then declaring it "state land" because it was not worked on.
If I take your ram from your PC and allege that I am putting it to better use than you did, it does not change the fact that is YOUR ram. Who cares if you just played IM and did some light web browsing? It doesn't matter if I was running intensive simulations or anything else. I can't sit and talk about HOW useful it has made things for me, HOW much better I can make thing for me, HOW much it has increased productivity...but it doesn't change the fact that what I did is wrong. And to top it off- saying "Hell, its just the ram - 99% of the other PC material is there" simply does not justify what has occured.
Eminent domain? You mean the thing that most Americans are (rightfully) against? What does eminent domain matter here? Its ultimately an issue between A government and its citizens? Can we take some of Canada or Mexico because "it benefits the American people"? Can we take another people's land because "we can utilize it better". If we take that land and lock them out- how does it even benefit those whome we stole it from? What you are arguing is simply that so as long as someone can justify the land that is taken...go ahead and do it.
I know you stated it isn't a direct comparison...but in this instance it isn't even an indirect comparison.
The crux of the problem is that you are intentionally avoiding bringing any perspective to the issue; you saw a bomastic number, and you seized upon it. Furthermore, the language that you use is the same that is used by others to promote the folklore that the catalyst for the conflict was "stolen" land, i.e. the string of wars that began in 1948 was a result of land theft.
Dwelling upon the issue of "stolen" land is nothing more than being inflammatory, while, if we consider the global picture, things look a bit different: over a period of 40 years 1% of land expropriated for settlements (no details regarding prior use, or compensation) -- this after one major war, and non-stop terrorism. Are you even surprised that Israeli started wondering whether this pece-for-land thing will ever become a reality?
This table shows that it is not as if right after 1967 Israel started expropriating land left-and-right, and building settlement after settlment; no, it took around a decade to get on that track, and I imagine that ongoing terrorism, and the war in 1973 in particular, have done wonders to the population's willigness to keep the West Bank in a pristine state for just-in-case someone will be willing to reach an agreement.
To reiterate: you're talking about 1% over 40 years, while ignoring benefits that followed the end of the Jordanian occupation. If everything Israel has done in the West Bank is wrong, then you must be a little bit nostalgic about the Jordanian occupation, when the majority of people didn't have running water, electricity, and were kept uneducated.
There goes your integrity as far as I'm concerned. Well, whatever you want to use to rationalize the expulsion of communities that lived there for many years, even though they were not involved in the conflict.
All the talk of the 1967 lines is nonsense, since those advocating that essentially want to get control prior to stopping any armed "resistance". We've seen plenty of double speak in the past, and this is no different, with the most recent example being the supposed cease-fire that took Hamas only a few hours to break (link).
The "State of Palestine" has no sovereignty over any land. All they have is "claims" on land. Basically, they want land that now belongs to Israel.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 24K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter