Israel's New Iron Dome System Minimizes Rocket Threats From Hamas And Iran

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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
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After factoring out the vast majority not intercepted because they are off target anyway, Hamas doesn't have enough rockets to make this system cost the Israelis any significant amount of money. Israeli deaths from Hamas rocket attacks have to date been minimal - 28 total since 2001 - even without a defense system. If Iron Dome had been in place since 2001 and had intercepted every rocket that caused death or injury, the cost would have been less than $1 million. Even if it had intercepted 4x that many due to the system erring on the safe side, the cost still would have been minimal.

- wolf
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
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I'd love to hear the math behind this one :D

Yeah I'm a little skeptical too, but I'm trying to be polite and give the IDF the benefit of the doubt, we don't pay for everything, just .9999714%, the rest comes from the underground Palestinian organ harvesting program. So they're somewhat self-sufficient.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
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Though I took a long way around (typical!) by trying to set the stage of what is in motion in the Mid-East, there are really only a couple of factors that ultimately must be considered.

The first is that the Palestinian terrorism, when it is not being directed upon themselves, means to disrupt the democratic system and economic success that Israel represents. Israel is a marked contrast to the thuggish, theocratic and nihilistic alternative represented by the Palestinians themselves, and they can't bear the comparison.

The means the Palestinians employ - kidnappings, suicide bombings, rocket attacks on civilian population, the use of their children as involuntary shields and martyrs - are abhorrent and attention getting, but they have not stopped the viability of the social and economic experiment of the Israeli state.

The Israelis could certainly choose total war and steamroll the Palestinian militaries at the the cost of large civilian casualties. They limit themselves to limited incursions and only after extreme provocations. And, thus far, they have self-limited themselves by focusing on strong defensive measures, including systems such as Iron Dome.

No country, no people can tolerate such attacks and the Israelis have taken an extraordinarily moderate path in response. But it is questionable as to how long they can maintain such a path in the face of certain attacks from close proximity.

Second, the Israelis face an existential threat from Iran, the greatest state sponsor of attacks against Israel and one that is actively developing weapons of mass destruction. They are physically a more distant enemy, of course. As a large country with WMD capacity, Iran would have the wherewithal to destroy the economic viability of the Israeli state while being insulated themselves by distance, size and dispersion of cities, population and infrastructure.

The most common discussion is of delivery of Iranian WMD by ballistic missile. Lots of technical problems with that, but devote enough resources to it and Iran will eventually come up with something more effective than what they have right now. For now, it seems Iron Dome will be effective enough to stop any attack of that type for the forseeable future.

A single small nuclear device's EMP, delivered by a suicide aircraft at high altitude over the small state will destroy Israel, even if the blast effects will not. Iron Dome can target that delivery platform as well, though it remains to be seen how they will integrate IFF systems to allow Iron Dome to do so.

If the West does not act in concert, if the Obama Administration has come to accept a nuclear armed Iran, if other Gulf states come to accept a nuclear armed Iran - Israel must act alone or accept its own eventual destruction.

In a couple of months Iron Dome may offer the kind of effective shield for the Israeli homeland that will allow them to pursue a more definitive approach to external threats.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Sammy Sez, "Personally, I'll be very amused if Israel, with this unique system, completely defuses Hizballah and Hamas. That would be just another testament to the fact you CAN win against terrorism."

And I tend to disagree with the amusement aspects, if there is one thing we have learned into the entire almost 62 existence of the State of Israel, is that Israel does nothing to defuse the tensions and continues to earn the hate of their surrounding neighbors. And no matter how overwhelming Israeli force is, it does nothing to solve the terrorists problems plaguing Israel.

The danger of the Iron Dome system lies in Israelis feeling safer and hence more eager to earn new and fresher hatreds by doing even more outrageous things that will keep the conflict going and going and going.

With Arab oil wealth expected to grow in any near terms future, the Iron Dome will only attract more Arab sponsors determined to fund ways around the Iron Dome.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
The danger of the Iron Dome system lies in Israelis feeling safer and hence more eager to earn new and fresher hatreds by doing even more outrageous things that will keep the conflict going and going and going.

Like what, for instance? Not much in recent times beats the Palestinians for doing outrageous things.

With Arab oil wealth expected to grow in any near terms future, the Iron Dome will only attract more Arab sponsors determined to fund ways around the Iron Dome.

Lots of conjecture that Saudi Arabia and others support an Israeli strike against Iranian nuclear weapon development facilities. Sort of like the Arab states' support of the U.S. attacking Iraq. And Iran is not Arab.

The Arab League includes Algeria, Bahrain, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, the Palestine Liberation Organization, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. Iran is not part of the fraternity.

Take a guess at how many of those actually support and/or are allied with Iran.

And while you are at it, consider how popular Palestinians are wherever they go. Lots of lip service paid to the Palestinians' self imposed plight, not so much remaining sympathy for their craziness.
 
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SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
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Yeah I'm a little skeptical too, but I'm trying to be polite and give the IDF the benefit of the doubt, we don't pay for everything, just .9999714%, the rest comes from the underground Palestinian organ harvesting program. So they're somewhat self-sufficient.

Again I'm not quite sure what the US has to do with this system. It was entirely developed by Israel, by an Israeli company (not the IDF). If anything, the US seems to be interested in purchasing it themselves.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
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Sammy Sez, "Personally, I'll be very amused if Israel, with this unique system, completely defuses Hizballah and Hamas. That would be just another testament to the fact you CAN win against terrorism."

And I tend to disagree with the amusement aspects, if there is one thing we have learned into the entire almost 62 existence of the State of Israel, is that Israel does nothing to defuse the tensions and continues to earn the hate of their surrounding neighbors.

Both Egypt and Jordan are at peace with Israel, and most of the Arab world has some degree of relations with Israel, although not always in a formal way. I'd hardly call it "regression" from the point at 1948 where the entire Arab nations united to destroy Israel, eh?

Many Arab nations were pretty lenient about the Israeli strikes in Lebanon back in 2006. They are much more afraid from Iran/Hizballah/Syria than from Israel, and now Egypt started escalating matters with Hamas and Hizbullah themselves.

And no matter how overwhelming Israeli force is, it does nothing to solve the terrorists problems plaguing Israel.

Really? Lets see: No suicide bombers; No rockets ever since the Lebanon war and the Cast Lead; Israeli causalities for 2009 are at a low of many years, fractions of the numbers during the Oslo process. Arafat is dead, Palestinians are divided and fighting among themselves. I think Israel did pretty good there, buddy. At least the number say so.

The danger of the Iron Dome system lies in Israelis feeling safer and hence more eager to earn new and fresher hatreds by doing even more outrageous things that will keep the conflict going and going and going.

Outrageous things such as what? Building?

With Arab oil wealth expected to grow in any near terms future, the Iron Dome will only attract more Arab sponsors determined to fund ways around the Iron Dome.

Arabs have grown pretty tired of the Palestinians, don't know if you noticed that.

Lemon friend, if you think that any terrorist punk should get what he wants just because you read somewhere that terrorism can not be defeated, I feel sorry for you.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
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What if Hamas sent up 200 rockets at the same time. Not that these things to much damage anyway as they are unguided. Still a false sense of security in my opinion.

kinda like wearing your seatbelt eh?
big rig will crush u!
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
The danger of the Iron Dome system lies in Israelis feeling safer and hence more eager to earn new and fresher hatreds by doing even more outrageous things that will keep the conflict going and going and going.

I think you have this totally backwards. Every rocket that does get through and kills Israeli civilians results in retaliation from Israel against the Palestinians. The culmination of the last several years of attacks was the Israeli assault on Gaza which had a major polarizing effect on the Palestinians. Every attack that Israel can neutralize is one less Israeli retaliation, fewer Palestinians killed, and less tension in the region.

Israel's walls and other defense systems are the best thing that could ever have happened for the peace process.

- wolf
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
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The Iron Dome is a missile and mortar interception system that fire two interceptor missiles at a incoming target, each missile costing ~$26,000. The radar system can determine which missiles to target and which ones hit open fields.

There is also the possibility of a laser interception system which should take two years to set up.

For ICBM's Israel is working on the Arrow system that will intercept missiles from places such as Iran and is expected to be ready in 2014.

For Israeli armor they have the Trophy system ready and installing it on all new tanks and starting to equip current tanks. It is a system that uses radar to detect and track incoming ATGM's & RPG's firing a shotgun like blast of projectiles to detonate the warhead before it reaches the tank. APC's are also being equiped with a "lighter" version.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
The Iron Dome is a missile and mortar interception system that fire two interceptor missiles at a incoming target, each missile costing ~$26,000. The radar system can determine which missiles to target and which ones hit open fields.

There is also the possibility of a laser interception system which should take two years to set up.

For ICBM's Israel is working on the Arrow system that will intercept missiles from places such as Iran and is expected to be ready in 2014.

For Israeli armor they have the Trophy system ready and installing it on all new tanks and starting to equip current tanks. It is a system that uses radar to detect and track incoming ATGM's & RPG's firing a shotgun like blast of projectiles to detonate the warhead before it reaches the tank. APC's are also being equiped with a "lighter" version.

Arrow is already operative as far as I know, there are several running batteries. It's constantly upgraded, much like the Patriots.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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The disproportionate rape of Gaza and Lebanon has done much to motivate future generations of terrorists and their sponsors. Especially since Israel now faces quite serious war crimes allegations regarding Gaza.

As for the idiot who tries to assume that Iran is somehow not part of Arab world, guess again. Especially when Iran has a homegrown arms industry, more dedicated to their own self defense, but like all arms producing nations, there is a national temptation to sell the surplus to pad the balance of trade wealth of nations.

It hardly makes me proud to be an American when the USA is the number one arms exporting nation. And the number one supporter of terrorism, edit that, the number one supporter of freedom fighters as if there is a dimes worth of difference.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
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The disproportionate rape of Gaza and Lebanon has done much to motivate future generations of terrorists and their sponsors. Especially since Israel now faces quite serious war crimes allegations regarding Gaza.

Whenever met with undisputed facts, or a logical dead end, some people like to bring up the "motivate future generations of terrorists". It's like claiming executing a murderer would cause his children to be criminals, and nearly as bad as claiming that giving terrorists what they want won't encourage terror.

Aside of that, I'm puzzled as for how you determined Israel's actions were disproprtionate. How is that measured? Compared to other countries? Compared to the number of Israeli causalities? Compared to the value of Israeli citizens lives? Compared to the amount of UN condemniation?

These "serious war crimes allegations" would come to nothing, ultimately, and we both know that.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
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The disproportionate rape of Gaza and Lebanon has done much to motivate future generations of terrorists and their sponsors. Especially since Israel now faces quite serious war crimes allegations regarding Gaza.

What would consider to be a proportionate response to an opponent that?

  • Hides among civilians
  • Ensures that there is no distinction between them and the civilians
  • Use internationally recognized symbols to hide behind
  • Attacks from civilian areas and then scoots while a response is mounted;
  • Many times has civilian support.
  • Has no qualms on using children or women as sacrifices

The Israels are not the people that were told to turn the other cheek.

They are fighting for their lives against an enemy that is sworn to destroy them.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
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Well if it gives Israel one less excuse to shoot civilians or bomb hospitals then I'm all for it.

Of course you all realize that for every $35,000 rocket the US taxpayer is doling out $34,999 to Israel.

But I digress.

I would even support paying $40k for every $35k rocket.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Sammy Sez, "Personally, I'll be very amused if Israel, with this unique system, completely defuses Hizballah and Hamas. That would be just another testament to the fact you CAN win against terrorism."

And I tend to disagree with the amusement aspects, if there is one thing we have learned into the entire almost 62 existence of the State of Israel, is that Israel does nothing to defuse the tensions and continues to earn the hate of their surrounding neighbors. And no matter how overwhelming Israeli force is, it does nothing to solve the terrorists problems plaguing Israel.

The danger of the Iron Dome system lies in Israelis feeling safer and hence more eager to earn new and fresher hatreds by doing even more outrageous things that will keep the conflict going and going and going.

With Arab oil wealth expected to grow in any near terms future, the Iron Dome will only attract more Arab sponsors determined to fund ways around the Iron Dome.

This is coming from the guy who admits to being a bleeding heart pro-Palestinian sympathizer....
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Again I'm not quite sure what the US has to do with this system. It was entirely developed by Israel, by an Israeli company (not the IDF). If anything, the US seems to be interested in purchasing it themselves.

Well the IDF will be deploying them and therefore will be buying them presumably. That will not be the responsibility of the designer/manufacturer.

Whatever makes the Israeli's feel safer and doesn't negatively impact anyone else is great.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Proportional would have been play 'who has the better rockets.' For every rocket shot into a civilian area Israel shoots one back into theirs.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
Well the IDF will be deploying them and therefore will be buying them presumably. That will not be the responsibility of the designer/manufacturer.

Whatever makes the Israeli's feel safer and doesn't negatively impact anyone else is great.

IDF is only given US aid to buy US made products from US companies. This surely doesn't classify.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,302
2,513
136
The interceptor missile will cost around $35k for a mass production round which is around the cost of a anti-tank missile. Western armies regulary fire these to blow holes in walls and kill snipers. Even countering a attack by 10,000 rockets would only cost $350 Million and as already pointed out it will only engage rockets that are going to hit near populated areas.

It will be interesting to see if Hamas and the usual suspects will step up there attacks before the system if fully operational.