Israelis Doing It Right

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Narmer
Sheesh, I'm pointing out the relationship between who he is and what he stands for. To blindly hate others while others blindly hate you is a sign of self-hatred.

And that is a personal attack that you've admitted to. It's entirely irrelevant to this thread. Notice how my opinions are on Palestinians, Arabs, Israelis Jews and Muslims? Not on Narmer, Aimster or DarkThinker? Because I don't make personal attacks. I simply address the issue of the thread.

If we were discussing some sort of psychological study on gay political views, you might have some footing to generally say what you said. But here, it's nothing but a personal attack, attempting to belittle my views by attacking me personally.

You cheering the assault on children is disgusting enough to question your character. As a minority, if you cannot comprehend the racism and hatred exhibited by that article that you yourself posted then there is something seriously wrong with you. And I never questioned your sexual orientation so stop being so sensitive now considering you're all about death and destruction before.

When the children look like this it can be said that maybe they had it coming.
Looks like a threat to me.

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: Narmer
Why don't you read up on the Haaretz article: "The selling of the summit" by Aluf Benn posted on haaretzdaily.com 7/26/2001. You're a degree-holding intellectual so I'm sure you can find it.

Silly Narmer, Op-Ed != Article.

Regarding Camp David:
Wiki
ADL
Palestine Facts
JVL

I'll take my toilet paper diploma over your polemic indoctrination any day.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Narmer
Sheesh, I'm pointing out the relationship between who he is and what he stands for. To blindly hate others while others blindly hate you is a sign of self-hatred.

And that is a personal attack that you've admitted to. It's entirely irrelevant to this thread. Notice how my opinions are on Palestinians, Arabs, Israelis Jews and Muslims? Not on Narmer, Aimster or DarkThinker? Because I don't make personal attacks. I simply address the issue of the thread.

If we were discussing some sort of psychological study on gay political views, you might have some footing to generally say what you said. But here, it's nothing but a personal attack, attempting to belittle my views by attacking me personally.

You cheering the assault on children is disgusting enough to question your character. As a minority, if you cannot comprehend the racism and hatred exhibited by that article that you yourself posted then there is something seriously wrong with you. And I never questioned your sexual orientation so stop being so sensitive now considering you're all about death and destruction before.

When the children look like this it can be said that maybe they had it coming.
Looks like a threat to me.

Yeah, blame the children, not the parents:roll:. How old are you? Do you have kids?

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: Narmer
Why don't you read up on the Haaretz article: "The selling of the summit" by Aluf Benn posted on haaretzdaily.com 7/26/2001. You're a degree-holding intellectual so I'm sure you can find it.

Silly Narmer, Op-Ed != Article.

Regarding Camp David:
Wiki
ADL
Palestine Facts
JVL

I'll take my toilet paper diploma over your polemic indoctrination any day.

Are you disputing the facts in what I posted or not?

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Narmer
Sheesh, I'm pointing out the relationship between who he is and what he stands for. To blindly hate others while others blindly hate you is a sign of self-hatred.

And that is a personal attack that you've admitted to. It's entirely irrelevant to this thread. Notice how my opinions are on Palestinians, Arabs, Israelis Jews and Muslims? Not on Narmer, Aimster or DarkThinker? Because I don't make personal attacks. I simply address the issue of the thread.

If we were discussing some sort of psychological study on gay political views, you might have some footing to generally say what you said. But here, it's nothing but a personal attack, attempting to belittle my views by attacking me personally.

You cheering the assault on children is disgusting enough to question your character. As a minority, if you cannot comprehend the racism and hatred exhibited by that article that you yourself posted then there is something seriously wrong with you. And I never questioned your sexual orientation so stop being so sensitive now considering you're all about death and destruction before.

When the children look like this it can be said that maybe they had it coming.
Looks like a threat to me.

Oh yes, and I bet the 4-year old kid in Nebor's article that was playing in his house's yard building a little sand castle was hiding terrorists in it when he got his wrist and leg,broken and his stomach stomped by the SO COURAGEOUS officer, right?

OH and BTW is this or this any better?

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: sirjonk
...
It is only the Israeli decision to not conduct mass slaughter of civilians, a prinicple the 'oppressed' do not hold to.

No the Israelis do not hold to that, and that has been evident in Palestine and other places over and over and over...

You're confusing collateral damage with targetting civilians. If Israel attacks a valid military target, say a bombmaker's house, and civilians die in the strike, it is regrettable, and unavoidable since the bombmaker hides among civilians. Contrast that scneario with specifically targeting civilians, say at a wedding/bar mitzvah/nightclub and killing as many as possible. There is no such thing as collateral damage for a suicide bomber becauase everything and everyone is a target. [/quote]

If a truly serious attack that resulted in thousands of Israeli deaths was traced to the Palestinians, I'm not sure such restraint would be shown.

Why is that? A principle that flexes according to magnitude? So is their a certain threshold before everyone gets it? Some principle that is.

If you have a principle not to lie, but someone puts a gun to your head and says "say 2 plus 2 equals five or I'll kill you", you go ahead and hang on to your principle.

You miss the point again. Israel holds to its principle because it is able to do so and survive. Should thousands die, it becomes a 'better them than us' scenario not of Israel's making. And for the record, I actually believe Israel still wouldn't carpet bomb the palestinians if the scenario I hypothesized occurred. But they would likely be forced to mobilize into the region ala The Siege.

[/quote]

As to Palestinians being treated as 2nd class citizens, you realize they aren't Israeli citizens at all?

You realize the Jews are a continent off? It's easy to think about it with a clock that only spans 70 years or so. Truth is, Palestinians view Israel as an artificial state that got implanted in what is their land that they have lived in for the majority of history.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Mohammad originally had the Muslims pray toward Jerusalem, an olive branch to the Jews to show brotherhood, and only later when he was spurned by the Jews did he change prayer direction toward Mecca. You want to play the "who was there first" card, Muslims will lose that one every time, +1000 years.

Oh, and Israel is a recognized state, a member of the UN, and isn't going anywhere, Amedinijad's desires notwithstanding. You can live in the past if you wish, but dreaming about good old pre-Israel days is not going to get you out of living in a dirt camp.
[/quote]

You recognize that it is the Palestinian children who are taught in school to hate all Israelis, taught that killing any of them is justified under any circumstance, that there is no distinction between Israeli civilians and military? You also realize that Israeli children are not taught this?

What would you teach your children if a nation of people invaded your country and took your land by force and treated you like an animal in your own land?

At least you admit that's what they teach their children. But tell me how they will ever grow up and work for peace if they believe that every Israeli is the devil? Israelis do not believe every Palestinian is evil, and that is why they make overtures towards peace.

Another hypo: Both sides are offered a settlement that would result in peace. The reactions would be like this:
Israel: Yes! We want to live in peace and not be subject to bombings and rocket attacks.
Palestine: No, they are all evil. You can't trust them or make any deals.

That's what results in teaching your children that there can be no compromises.
[/quote]

That it was the Palestinians who balked when offered 95% of what they asked for at camp david?

It's a matter of principle. Would we as Americans be willing to accept to give up 1 of out of our states to give to an invading people? I think not.

If American had been invaded and after 50 years we were offered 95% of our land back if we would stop attacking our agressor, something tells me we'd take the deal, not die to the last man and live like refugees until we got back the last 5%. But that's my opinion. Good luck with yours.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

You guys are just feeding the troll. Leave him be.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Narmer
Sheesh, I'm pointing out the relationship between who he is and what he stands for. To blindly hate others while others blindly hate you is a sign of self-hatred.

And that is a personal attack that you've admitted to. It's entirely irrelevant to this thread. Notice how my opinions are on Palestinians, Arabs, Israelis Jews and Muslims? Not on Narmer, Aimster or DarkThinker? Because I don't make personal attacks. I simply address the issue of the thread.

If we were discussing some sort of psychological study on gay political views, you might have some footing to generally say what you said. But here, it's nothing but a personal attack, attempting to belittle my views by attacking me personally.

You cheering the assault on children is disgusting enough to question your character. As a minority, if you cannot comprehend the racism and hatred exhibited by that article that you yourself posted then there is something seriously wrong with you. And I never questioned your sexual orientation so stop being so sensitive now considering you're all about death and destruction before.

The enemy is the enemy. I feel that the palestinians are my enemy, so I see nothing wrong with killing and oppressing them. Of course I also think they're fools not to fight back with everything they have.

But they do fight back with everything they have, namely the suicide bombers that have been highly effective. Therefore, I assume that you disagree with Sinsear that they are savages then, right?

I never said they were savages. They're people just like anyone else, just they're the enemy. I'm simply saying that since the the Palestinians are fighting back with everything they have, Israel should show a similar lack of restraint and kill them all.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
No the Israelis do not hold to that, and that has been evident in Palestine and other places over and over and over...

You're confusing collateral damage with targetting civilians. If Israel attacks a valid military target, say a bombmaker's house, and civilians die in the strike, it is regrettable, and unavoidable since the bombmaker hides among civilians. Contrast that scneario with specifically targeting civilians, say at a wedding/bar mitzvah/nightclub and killing as many as possible. There is no such thing as collateral damage for a suicide bomber becauase everything and everyone is a target.

Go back to the article:

In the words of one soldier: "The truth? When there is chaos, I like it. That's when I enjoy it. It's like a drug. If I don't go into Rafah, and if there isn't some kind of riot once in some weeks, I go nuts."



The soldiers described dozens of incidents of extreme violence. One recalled an incident when a Palestinian was shot for no reason and left on the street. "We were in a weapons carrier when this guy, around 25, passed by in the street and, just like that, for no reason -- he didn't throw a stone, did nothing -- bang, a bullet in the stomach, he shot him in the stomach and the guy is dying on the pavement and we keep going, apathetic. No one gave him a second look," he said.

With women, one threw a clog at me and I kicked her here [pointing to the crotch], I broke everything there. She can't have children.

The arrested men were made to sit on the floor of the bus. They had been taken from their beds and were barely clothed, even though the temperature was below zero. The new recruits trampled on the Palestinians and then proceeded to beat them for the whole of the journey. They opened the bus windows and poured water on the arrested men.

He [the officer] suddenly starts running and we all run with him. He was from the combat engineers.

"He grabbed the boy. I am a degenerate if I am not telling you the truth. He broke his hand here at the wrist, broke his leg here. And started to stomp on his stomach, three times, and left. We are all there, jaws dropping, looking at him in shock...

"The next day I go out with him on another patrol, and the soldiers are already starting to do the same thing."

Thankfully as the person noted- these are dropping. But do you not classify this as heinous crime? And guess what - when something like this happens...it SPREADS. It spreads and everyone hears about it - and the effect is magnified by 1000X. In reverse it happens to us to: Do you realize how many on 9/11 believe that every Palestinian woke up to celebrate "death to america"! Information spreads like fire and gets ingrained in people's mind. Well..atleast the ones who knows what Palestinians are.

If you have a principle not to lie, but someone puts a gun to your head and says "say 2 plus 2 equals five or I'll kill you", you go ahead and hang on to your principle.

1) This isn't comparable analogy (Major point). 2+2 is factually NOT 5. There are VERY few facts that both sides agree on...and even for die hard Isreali supporters it must be understood that it is their POV and NOT fact. The situation deals very little with facts, so to bring an analogy based on such is not true.
2) Different people have different values on principles (a more minor point)

I have no idea what you are talking about. Mohammad originally had the Muslims pray toward Jerusalem, an olive branch to the Jews to show brotherhood, and only later when he was spurned by the Jews did he change prayer direction toward Mecca. You want to play the "who was there first" card, Muslims will lose that one every time, +1000 years.

What are you talking about? Do you think the issue about is "Muslim Palestinians" at all? Do you believe ALL Palestinians are Muslim? Do you think there is a problem with Jews who originally lived there? over 1400 years ago Palestinians in the area were probably Pagan, Christian, or Jews. There is no "Muslim Race" that spread out of Arabia and displaced the population in Palestine. Arabs spread for SURE - but they married into local peoples and integrated with them. this is why Arab culture is very varied.
There was a good BBC article on Octoberfest in Palestine, and interesting enough it casually mentioned in passing of him speaking to a Christian Palestinian who joined the Al Aqsa Marytrs.
The establishment of Israel was a situation of actually DISPLACING people who did live there.

Oh, and Israel is a recognized state, a member of the UN, and isn't going anywhere, Amedinijad's desires notwithstanding. You can live in the past if you wish, but dreaming about good old pre-Israel days is not going to get you out of living in a dirt camp.

I have never seen darkthinker ONCE say that Israel should and must be destroyed. He has discussed co existence and has stated this before. Where do you come out and say that? Guess what - I agree that Israel will most likely exist and have no problem trying to hammer out an agreement. Don't demonize what doesn't exist.

At least you admit that's what they teach their children. But tell me how they will ever grow up and work for peace if they believe that every Israeli is the devil? Israelis do not believe every Palestinian is evil, and that is why they make overtures towards peace.

I'd be interested in seeing actual views of Israelis - and SPECIFICALLY Arabs in Israeli Modern History. This there discussion of the ejection of Arabs, is there discussion of the Arabs who lived there? Considering how Israeli history is still so new - I would think Arab culture and history would be greatly discussed in length. Now I myself don't know - and people love to claim that- but is the Map of Israel in schools one that exist on 1967 borders, 1973 borders, 1949...or one that doesn't even mention Palestine at all? Considering how previous Israeli PM and leaders have made such racist and vulgar remarks at Arabs in genreal - I'm not expecting them to subtly teach their children something different. Of course that can't be extended to a population...which I why I challenge this.

Another hypo: Both sides are offered a settlement that would result in peace. The reactions would be like this:
Israel: Yes! We want to live in peace and not be subject to bombings and rocket attacks.
Palestine: No, they are all evil. You can't trust them or make any deals.

That's what results in teaching your children that there can be no compromises.

If American had been invaded and after 50 years we were offered 95% of our land back if we would stop attacking our agressor, something tells me we'd take the deal, not die to the last man and live like refugees until we got back the last 5%. But that's my opinion. Good luck with yours.

Don't necessarily speak for your America as if your voice is synonymous with it. I would, violently if need be, fight back for every inch of land, especially is unjustly taken away without considering our opinions, concerns, and cares.

By the way - one last point:

http://gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Read that. There is your "sweet heart" deal for you. Imagine the invader claiming a lot of the water rich areas for themselves, and trying to fracture the US as much as possible so that travel and economy is severly inhibited...the REAL question is "95% of WHAT". I can give you 95% of anything, but depending what I take of that 5%, it could be similar to giving you nothing

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Narmer
Sheesh, I'm pointing out the relationship between who he is and what he stands for. To blindly hate others while others blindly hate you is a sign of self-hatred.

And that is a personal attack that you've admitted to. It's entirely irrelevant to this thread. Notice how my opinions are on Palestinians, Arabs, Israelis Jews and Muslims? Not on Narmer, Aimster or DarkThinker? Because I don't make personal attacks. I simply address the issue of the thread.

If we were discussing some sort of psychological study on gay political views, you might have some footing to generally say what you said. But here, it's nothing but a personal attack, attempting to belittle my views by attacking me personally.

You cheering the assault on children is disgusting enough to question your character. As a minority, if you cannot comprehend the racism and hatred exhibited by that article that you yourself posted then there is something seriously wrong with you. And I never questioned your sexual orientation so stop being so sensitive now considering you're all about death and destruction before.

The enemy is the enemy. I feel that the palestinians are my enemy, so I see nothing wrong with killing and oppressing them. Of course I also think they're fools not to fight back with everything they have.

But they do fight back with everything they have, namely the suicide bombers that have been highly effective. Therefore, I assume that you disagree with Sinsear that they are savages then, right?

I never said they were savages. They're people just like anyone else, just they're the enemy. I'm simply saying that since the the Palestinians are fighting back with everything they have, Israel should show a similar lack of restraint and kill them all.

Riiight, like Hitler tried to do after a few Socialist/Communist Jews declared "war" on Germany? Hitler would've loved you.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: Narmer
I've been in the region before but I will never step foot in an apartheid state or one that believes in the anachronistic dogma of colonialism (read: Israel).

It's clear that you have a significant lack of knowledge and education on the history and current affairs of this region.

Its quite clear, teclis, the you use what knowledge you have to support a totally biased view.

In the original 1948 UN creation of the State of Israel, that it was intended that the Israli government be a government for all the existing population. And instead the government decided it would only be the government of the jewish people while making others second class citizens in the land of their birth.

Until the government of Israel rectifies that mistake and recognizes the right to return, the State of Israel will never know a moments peace. The conflict will soon celebrate its 60'th birthday, and there is no end in sight. And under the UN rules, all lands taken in the 1967 war
must go back.

One day, the US government will quit subsidizing Israel, and then maybe Israel will start to become serious about peace.

But when the currency of peace is in defusing hatreds, Israel is seeming doing everything to increase present hatreds.

 

[DarkThinker]

You're confusing collateral damage with targetting civilians. If Israel attacks a valid military target, say a bombmaker's house, and civilians die in the strike, it is regrettable, and unavoidable since the bombmaker hides among civilians. Contrast that scneario with specifically targeting civilians, say at a wedding/bar mitzvah/nightclub and killing as many as possible. There is no such thing as collateral damage for a suicide bomber becauase everything and everyone is a target.

Right they don't target civilians on purpose, and I am celebrating Hanukkah with you guys next time.
I have seen enough videos of innocent Palestinians being beaten and shot to know that is not true. And what about the war with Hizbollah last Summer? %90 of the cluster bombs fired into the South during the last 72 hours of the conflict after a UN brokered deal was reached what the heck was that about? Why did Israel use weapons internationally banned from being used in civilian areas such as cluster bombs? Why did Israeli commanders lie to their soldiers by telling them that the areas they are dropping the cluster bombs on are not civilian areas, meanwhile they were? Why does Israel till today still refuse to hand over anti-personnel mine and cluster bomb locations maps to UN and Lebanese mine clearing teams, these bombs have rendered life in the agricultural South extremely dangerous? What about the 1996 massacre in Qana Lebanon? 106 civilians dead while hiding from bombardment at a Fiji UN compound.

What about the Sabra and Shatella massacre, 800 unarmed civilians massacred in a cooperative ground mission between the Israeli army under Ariel Sharon's command and the Lebanese Forces (a Lebanese extremist Christian group).
You can't possibly tell me Israel doesn't target civilians deliberately, they have as big of a record in that area as anyone else and that's if not the top record ever.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Mohammad originally had the Muslims pray toward Jerusalem, an olive branch to the Jews to show brotherhood, and only later when he was spurned by the Jews did he change prayer direction toward Mecca. You want to play the "who was there first" card, Muslims will lose that one every time, +1000 years.

The direction of prayer had nothing to do with Jews, it had to do with holy locations in Jerusalem that the Abrahamic religions share.
You have my respect sirjonk that you admitted that Muhammad preached brotherhood with the Jews only for them to stab him in the back when they took the side of the stone worshipers in battle instead of staying neutral as they promised. And the change of the kiblah was not to spite the Jews, that's not how it is in the Quran. It came as a test from god to the Jews and Christians of that time, it's mentioned the Quran that Jews had the knowledge from the scriptures that were passed to them through the centuries that a prophet would come, and a change in the kiblah in order to manifest the importance of Mecca was imminent, but they ignored it and claimed it is not true.

You want to play the "who was there first" card, Muslims will lose that one every time, +1000 years.
Oh, and Israel is a recognized state, a member of the UN, and isn't going anywhere

Speaking of the UN, It has always amazed me how a secular body like the UN would give the Jews a land that belonged to others during that time period. Do you know of any other people the UN gave land to from other people that were living there just because some millennium ago some people of their same religion where living there??

However, Israel is here to stay, and a peace offer from the Arab league is on the table, I think they should take get it while it's hot.

Yes there were Jews living peacefully amongst the Palestinians before the shit hit the fan. But they were a minority compared to the Christian and Muslims communities and would have in no way have been entitled to their own country, sure they can own their own land and be citizens of the same nation but why are they expected to have their own country? Not every entity that owns land can create their own country you know?

And what about the Jews from Europe? Those are a different case from the Jewish inhabitants of Palestine who where there through time and their ancestors. You just can't live for +1000 years in another continent and then comeback and lay claim for a land that there might not even be blood links to. In our justice system here in the states, there are time limits for claiming things you know, because it makes sense. I would like to see you in a US court of law explain to a judge that person x had item y which belonged to you for 60 years, all these 60 years you didn't come forward to take it back, you most probably won't have it back. Someone versed in law might be able to give a better example than I did.

Same thing applies to Palestine. It took hundreds of years of sacrifice from Arabs (Muslims and Christians) to fight off the Crusaders and take the land back, it took a lot of pain for matters to reach natural equilibrium by which you had Muslims (the majority) in control of the land politically, while Christians and Jews (the minority) have right to own land and access holy sites just like things where during the times of the great Salah El-Din and everyone was happy. You even had Jewish people spread all over Arabic countries enjoying life like everyone else.

You can live in the past if you wish, but dreaming about good old pre-Israel days is not going to get you out of living in a dirt camp.

EXCUSE ME? Me living in a Dirt camp? Thankfully, my family is very well to do, we have multiple homes, property and businesses that span the US, Brazil, Germany, France and Lebanon, proudly built with our own hard work, not US tax payer's and lobby money mind you.

I am living a decent life as good as I could need it to be and FYI I am a Lebanese-American not a Palestinian.
I don't support the plight of the Palestinian people for myself, it would not affect me either way where I live TBH.

I support them because they are people that destiny has chosen them to be the center of hate by the powers of the world and had to turn to violence, blood lust and lack of decent social standards just to survive their reality, the reality that they have been sieged by cowardly hyenas who have been preparing for centuries to witness their demise and humiliation.

You know as a Jew/ Jewish-Supporter can't you relate from how Jewish people used to be treated in the past? Persecuted by super powers of their time (Pharaoh of Egypt, The Romans, The Germans)? Spread around the world with no home to go to?

Sure I criticize Palestinians all the time, for lack of organization, for extremism, for not being more civilized, for not being more open minded about things. But I don't know , when a person has been through half of the crap they have been through, no one knows how it could it affect your behavior and the society around you.

 

[eits]

nebor's not serious... it's just an act. he's trying to be like stephen colbert or something. is a phony persona. you guys are just falling for it.

this is obviously why israel and america are hated in the middle east... because israeli forces do things like this and never have to answer to it... and we back them. nebor's trying to show that by being outrageous.

 

[jonks]

You can live in the past if you wish, but dreaming about good old pre-Israel days is not going to get you out of living in a dirt camp.

EXCUSE ME? Me living in a Dirt camp? Thankfully, my family is very well to do, we have multiple homes, property and businesses that span the US, Brazil, Germany, France and Lebanon, proudly built with our own hard work, not US tax payer's and lobby money mind you.

This simple misunderstanding really exemplifies the feeling that we're unable to converse about anything. You, meant 'you in general' or 'one', i.e. "dreaming will not get one out of a dirt camp." The fact that we can't interact at the most basic level makes clear I should not bother addressing the complex. We aren't going to get through to each other on this medium. Point-counterpoint is futile when you address points I wasn't making, which occurred several times in the clipped section above. I won't reargue everything using different language, so I'm dropping out.