Israeli Soldiers Ravage Bethlehem

BoltCase

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Oct 21, 2001
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This is an interesting article from the Washington times, the Israelis are really seeking revenge more than anything else. They've killed 200 so far, many are civilians. I just read today that they fired missiles at a refugee camp, that should make the civilian casualities even higher.

The Israelis are putting their anger on ALL palestinians, Muslims or Christians, doctors or clerics. *Sigh*

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Israeli Forces Inflict Widespread Damage in Bethlehem
Residents Describe Operation As Driven by Hatred, Revenge
An Israeli soldier takes cover behind a truck in the West Bank town of Bethlehem. (AFP)

By Keith B. Richburg
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, April 8, 2002; Page A10


BETHLEHEM, West Bank, April 7 -- When Israeli troops banged on the door of the Christmas Lutheran Church and International Center compound, the Rev. Mitri Raheb, the pastor and noted theologian, was confronted with a dilemma many Palestinians face each day: leave his residential quarters to talk to the troops and risk being arrested, or worse, stay huddled inside with his family and allow the soldiers to ransack his office.

He took what he called the "calculated risk" and went out -- to find the soldiers bashing in the door. "I have all the keys!" he shouted at them in Hebrew, then English. "You can ask me as gentlemen, and I will open all the doors!"

Instead, he said, the soldiers bashed in 31 doors and smashed 57 windows in the three-story compound as they searched for gunmen and weapons. In one office, he said, they ripped out a computer hard drive and demolished a refrigerator, tearing out its wiring. They broke windows in a ceramics workshop and a small gift shop. They left bullet holes in sinks.

"They are not searching for people or ammunition," said Raheb, a German-trained scholar and native of Bethlehem. "They hate to see any positive sign of life in our town. . . . They want to see us as the underdog. They don't want to see us as equal to them."

"It's this evil power of revenge," he said. "I think it's hatred. They entered, and their aim was to destroy as much as possible."

The extent of the destruction in Bethlehem became apparent today as reporters were able to wander through the city, which Israeli has declared a closed military zone, to the edge of Manger Square. About 200 Palestinians, including armed fighters, and 60 clergy members are hunkered down in the adjacent Church of the Nativity, the site where Jesus is believed to have been born.

Bethlehem, which was spruced up with $200 million in foreign donations for the millennium celebrations, now has many shops with broken windows and doors ripped from hinges. Cars have been crushed by tanks, or their windshields have been shattered.

Late Saturday, Israeli soldiers blew up at least nine cars parked at Bethlehem's farmers' market. The blast collapsed the market's roof and the ensuing blaze damaged some nearby shops. The area, littered with incinerated shells of cars, was still smoldering today. The Israeli military said Palestinians had rigged cars to explode as soldiers passed by.

A stone monument from Cologne, Germany, erected at the entrance to Bethlehem's Old City for the 2000 millennium celebrations, was reduced to rubble, apparently crushed by a tank, residents said. Treads from tanks and armored personnel carriers have ripped up the pavement and broke open pipes, leaving water gushing into the streets.

"All this destruction! These people don't fear God!" an elderly woman wailed as she walked through the marketplace.

William Hazbooun, a 47-year-old engineer, runs a small secondhand appliance shop adjacent to the farmers' market that was badly damaged by the fire. He said that when Israeli troops moved into Bethlehem in 1967, during the war, there was minimal damage and barely a shot fired. "Nothing happened in '67," he said. "They just came here walking."

Talal Hamdan's shop was demolished by a tank shell that brought the roof down. "I lost 60,000 shekels [about $13,000] worth of merchandise," he said.

Raed Jaber, 27, inherited a small clothing shop from his father. He lives in Hebron, about 12 miles south of Bethlehem, but has been trapped in his shop with three others for five days because of a curfew enforced by the Israeli military. "These are just acts of revenge," he said of the Israeli soldiers' actions. "Their intention is to destroy Palestinian lives and livelihood. But we won't leave. We'll stay here."

Capt. Jacob Dallal, an Israeli army spokesman, said that the soldiers were operating under strict orders to limit damage to civilian property, but that "a certain amount of disruption may occur."

"You're dealing with a war in an urban setting," he said. "It's very difficult. There's no way this can be without any damage."

Jessica Montell, executive director of the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, said property destruction was a serious problem made worse because the soldiers in Palestinian territories can operate with impunity. "There's no accountability. There's no investigation," she said. "It's like boys with no supervision who go crazy. There's no sense that these are human beings like them, who are victims. It's hard to find any security justification for what appears to be vandalism and wanton destruction."

Along with the destruction, Palestinians here spoke of what they considered unnecessary humiliation by the Israeli troops, despite President Bush's call Thursday for the Israeli army to show "compassion" and "concern about the dignity of the Palestinian people."

Raheb, the Lutheran pastor, said some of the Israeli soldiers searching his compound heard him speaking in Arabic on his telephone, and shouted "Dirty Arab!" and "Why are you speaking Arabic? It's an ugly language."

Maher Abu Aker, 24, said that he was detained for 24 hours by Israeli troops who blindfolded him and bound his wrists with tight cuffs. He said he was not fed for 24 hours, and had to sleep with 35 others in a small room on a concrete floor.

He said a soldier brought blankets for the group because of the nighttime cold but then poured water over the blankets. "After the blankets were wet, we could not use them," Abu Aker said. "We just put them aside" and slept on the floor.

Abu Aker, who works in his father's mechanics shop, said he was ordered to chant vulgar slogans about the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, but refused. He said he was slapped on the head and kicked in the legs while being interrogated. He said he was then released because he has never been a gunman and never been in trouble.

"I was really humiliated," he said. "It wouldn't have felt as bad if I were a fighter. They arrested me two or three times before. It seems they don't learn, they just keep doing this. We had old people, doctors in our group -- we all received the same treatment."

The B'Tselem group went to Israel's High Court today seeking an order granting Palestinian detainees access to lawyers and an end to alleged torture of detainees. B'Tselem and three other human rights groups that joined the case said Palestinians at the Ofer detention camp had their toes broken during interrogation.

The High Court rejected their petition, saying the torture allegations could not be proven because they were too general and there were no Palestinian witnesses to back up the allegations. Also, the Israeli military recently issued an order allowing troops to hold Palestinians for 18 days without access to a lawyer. Israel has denied using torture as an interrogation method.


 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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<yawn> The Washington Post, running a story critical of Israel. How typical.

The headline would be better written, "Israeli soldiers liberating Bethlehem."
 

BoltCase

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Oct 21, 2001
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glenn1, If you don't have a real post to type in, don't bother.

Are you critical of the source that deliverd the news per se or of the contents of the news?

I doubt you even read the article, 'how typical'.

How many real posts you made out of your 4,000 ? I wonder.
 

BoltCase

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Oct 21, 2001
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<< Terrorists are attacking Jewish pre-schools in France. Your point? >>



A attacks B
C attacks D

makes "A attacks B" justifiable.

Pre-schoolers can make sense of that logic.

*Sigh*
 

Bulk Beef

Diamond Member
Aug 14, 2001
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<< A attacks B
C attacks D

makes "A attacks B" justifiable.
>>

So you're saying Israeli attacks are justified, right?
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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*Sigh*

M attacks I
M attacks I
M attacks I

I gets fed up and decides to beat the hell out of M.

That's logic that is understandable.

edit, the rest of the equation.

M gets all whiney and complains about how he is being mistreated now.
 

BoltCase

Member
Oct 21, 2001
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<< So you're saying Israeli attacks are justified, right? >>



No, I mean when ever Israelis attack or kill civilians, destroy homes, and bulldoze refugee camps; they reply with "Oh but the Palestinians attacked". If as the Israeli's state wide terrorism is justified, even if they kill the innocents.

M attacks I Because of illegal occupation
M attacks I Because of illegal occupation
M attacks I Because of illegal occupation



<< I gets fed up and decides to beat the hell out of M. >>



And kills 4 times as many civilians that initially M incurred in I, netto.

Please let's remember who is occupying the other.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,158
59
91
<<Please let's remember who is occupying the other. >>

And let's remember WHY one is occupying the other.

<<No, I mean when ever Israelis attack or kill civilians, destroy homes, and bulldoze refugee camps; they reply with "Oh but the Palestinians attacked". If as the Israeli's state wide terrorism is justified, even if they kill the innocents.>>

But you have to admit at least the Israelis are MOSTLY going after terrorists. They kill more people with guns than not.

Now admit that the terrorists almost exclusively kill civilians. There is a difference, don't you think?

Not like the suicide bombers are primarily going after military targets. At least the Israelis are. Atrocities are a part of war. They have ocurred in every war. That doesn't make them right, but they do happen.



 

Bulk Beef

Diamond Member
Aug 14, 2001
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<< A attacks B
C attacks D

makes "A attacks B" justifiable.
>>

I don't get it. You're saying somebody is justified here, so who is it? Israel or Palestine?
 

BoltCase

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Oct 21, 2001
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And let's remember WHY one is occupying the other.

To build more settlements and expand under the jusfitication of security. I can understand if it lasted for few years, but it's been 35 years, just a bit too much. Settlement activity never stopped, even when the peace treaty was signed.

But you have to admit at least the Israelis are MOSTLY going after terrorists. They kill more people with guns than not.

It is evident that Israelis apply a collectaroal punishment and humilation on palestinians (you can see that from the articles posted). The IDF is trigger happy, this is why there is so many civilian casualties among the Palestinains. A bell ringer at the Church of Nativity was shot before he did not stop for Israeli shouts, he was mentally impared. A 55 year old baker was shot dead when he tried to open his bakery. A sniper targed a clergyman in the Church of Nativity. The point is, it doesn't take a lot for a civilain to get killed by Israelis.


Now admit that the terrorists almost exclusively kill civilians. There is a difference, don't you think?

Not like the suicide bombers are primarily going after military targets. At least the Israelis are. Atrocities are a part of war. They have ocurred in every war. That doesn't make them right, but they do happen.


The suicide bombers can't select military targets because of the "nature" of military targets. If Palestinians have access to real weaponary, there wouldn't be a need for suicide bombers.

Not that suicide bombers are justified, I just see the IDF as terrorist as those bombers, just wearing different uniforms.





<< don't get it. You're saying somebody is justified here, so who is it? Israel or Palestine? >>



That was a response to a logical fallacy by etech. He tried to justify, or at least ignore, Israeli actions against Christian and Muslim Palestinains, because Jews were attacked in France.

It's like saying that a rapist is not as guilty because someone harrasd the rapist's sister.


 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
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It is evident that Israelis apply a collectaroal punishment and humilation on palestinians (you can see that from the articles posted). The IDF is trigger happy, this is why there is so many civilian casualties among the Palestinains. A bell ringer at the Church of Nativity was shot before he did not stop for Israeli shouts, he was mentally impared. A 55 year old baker was shot dead when he tried to open his bakery. A sniper targed a clergyman in the Church of Nativity. The point is, it doesn't take a lot for a civilain to get killed by Israelis


lets see, with palestinian suicide bombers trying to blow up troops i think i would be trigger happy too. terrorists breed an atmosphere where there are no "civilians".
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
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<< It is evident that Israelis apply a collectaroal punishment and humilation on palestinians (you can see that from the articles posted). The IDF is trigger happy, this is why there is so many civilian casualties among the Palestinains. A bell ringer at the Church of Nativity was shot before he did not stop for Israeli shouts, he was mentally impared. A 55 year old baker was shot dead when he tried to open his bakery. A sniper targed a clergyman in the Church of Nativity. The point is, it doesn't take a lot for a civilain to get killed by Israelis >>



Number one Mr. BoltCase, I assure you that the IDF is not trigger happy. You've never seen such disciplined troops in your life. As a matter of fact, you've probably never seen any troops, but that's beside the point. two of the cases of people being shot (baker, priest) that you've quoted, you've taken the Palestinian word at face value. The Israelis say that they were shot by Palestinian snipers. Why believe the Palestinians over the Israelis? I would just say I dont know what really happened, but apparently you have some inside knowledge that no one else has. About the bellringer, here's the Israeli side of the story:


<< On Friday, Israeli commanders gave their version of the death of Samir Abraham Salman, a former altar boy and longtime employee at the church, calling it a tragic misunderstanding. When Salman came out of the church, he was shouting and running and refused orders to stop, the commanders said. After firing in the air and then near him, soldiers shot him because they feared he could be an attacker or a suicide bomber, Aviv said. >>


Text
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
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If Israelis are really doing that, they are idiots. They are just radicalizing another generation of terrorists. The more people lose everything, the more people have nothing to lose.
 

BoltCase

Member
Oct 21, 2001
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<< lets see, with palestinian suicide bombers trying to blow up troops i think i would be trigger happy too. terrorists breed an atmosphere where there are no "civilians". >>



Communicating with you is an insult dear, beyond this.



<< Number one Mr. BoltCase, I assure you that the IDF is not trigger happy. You've never seen such disciplined troops in your life. As a matter of fact, you've probably never seen any troops, but that's beside the point. two of the cases of people being shot (baker, priest) that you've quoted, you've taken the Palestinian word at face value. The Israelis say that they were shot by Palestinian snipers. Why believe the Palestinians over the Israelis? I would just say I dont know what really happened, but apparently you have some inside knowledge that no one else has. About the bellringer, here's the Israeli side of the story.. snip >>



It seems you had to dig a lot to get that. Actually, the Israelis had even a different version that I read in Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper. Just how many different versions are they going to make up?

Also, Palestinian snipers killing Palestinians? I'll stop at that. Btw, by mere statistics, the IDF has been FAR more successful at killing civilians than the suicide bombers. The current ratio is 3 Palestinain civilians per 1 Israeli civilian. This ratio will change soon.

and this is in your "credible" source:

"We know that these Palestinian Authority heads in Bethlehem are leading a gang of terrorists that took over the church," Aviv declared. "We can say that the PA heads have stormed the Church of the Nativity and are preventing others from leaving and themselves refuse to leave. It is a great disgrace to the Palestinian Authority."

The Israelis said their troops worked with Vatican diplomats, apparently by telephone, to help the Franciscan monks slip out of the compound Friday without the knowledge of the gunmen.

Two of the monks, who served in the adjacent St. Catherine's church, were elderly, and another was in a state of panic, according to military officers. Once outside, the monks told Israeli soldiers that the Palestinian gunmen had forced their way into the church Tuesday as Israeli tanks and troops rolled into town, Aviv said.

"The priests are under terrible pressure," Aviv said. "They are hostages."


A gang of terrorists that took over the charge? They are hostages? loool. Unless you don't know, have the population of Bethlehem is Christian, those who took refuge in the chruch are mostly local police officers and security guards. According to the clerics inside, many fighters are local Christians. The Vatican has warned that Israeli is using the word 'hostage' to assult the church, but no one is being held hostage.

That having been said, your source is rendered incrediable. Just for the fun of it, Let's see what the Vatican diplomats just said TODAY about Israelis:

ROME, April 8 ? Franciscans, who had been working for a peaceful solution to a standoff at Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, condemned on Monday an Israeli assault as an act of ''indescribable barbarity'' with long-term consequences.
Father David Jaeger, spokesman for custodians of Catholic sites in the Holy Land, who is currently in Rome, told Reuters he had been told by telephone that Israeli troops had begun firing on the convent and that a fire had started.
He said one man had been killed by gunfire while trying to put out the fire.
''This is an act of indescribable barbarity. It is a violation of every law of humanity and civilisation. It is a violation of the explicit and repeated public and diplomatic guarantees of the State of Israel with consequences that will be long-term and incalculable,'' he said.
''We put our trust in God and we appeal to the whole world to condemn this act and stop this behaviour from continuing,'' he said.
Some 200 Palestinian gunmen and civilians took refuge in the Bethlehem church on Tuesday and have remained holed up inside along with 40 Franciscan monks and four nuns.
Mohammed al-Madani, the Palestinian governor of the West Bank city who is inside the Bethlehem complex, said soldiers in the municipality building 100 metres (yards) to the west and gunners in two tanks to the south were shooting at the church Christians believe marks the site of Jesus's birth.

ATTACK WAS FEARED
Franciscans, who run many of the Holy Land's religious sites for the Catholic Church, had been fearing an Israeli assault.
Speaking to Reuters on Sunday night in Rome, Jaeger accused Israel of putting pressure on Franciscan monks to leave, fearing this was a prelude to an attack on Palestinians inside.
Israel had accused the Palestinians of using the church as a sanctuary and using the clergy inside as virtual hostages, but says its troops are under orders not to fire at holy places.
Palestinians said it is the troops surrounding the church who have effectively taken those inside hostage.
In his address on Sunday, Pope John Paul said he felt close to those who are ''living through difficult hours'' in the Bethlehem church.
Vatican diplomats and Church officials in the Holy Land had put forward a proposal to Israelis and Palestinians to end the Bethlehem standoff.
Catholic sources said that under the proposal, which Vatican diplomats and Church officials had been working out with the help of other diplomats, the Palestinians in the basilica would be given safe passage to the Gaza Strip, leaving their weapons behind.
Israel's latest offensive has been confined to the West Bank and has not affected Gaza, which is separated from the West Bank by Israeli territory.
The Israel army is in its 11th day of a massive sweep of the West Bank following a spate of Palestinian suicide bombings.

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Also, take a look at this:


One Palestinian policeman was killed in the shooting and the gunfire caused a fire in offices belonging to a monastery, governor Mohammed al-Madani told Reuters by telephone from inside the church. The blaze was later put out.
The Israeli army said gunmen had opened fire from the church compound and it blamed the fire on the people inside, saying they had thrown grenades.
It said two soldiers had been hurt and that soldiers had ''fired towards the source of the shooting'' as they rescued the wounded men.
Madani said soldiers in the municipality building 100 metres (yards) to the west and gunners in two tanks to the south were shooting at the church, which Christians believe marks the site of Jesus's birth.
It was also not immediately clear if some 200 gunmen and civilians trapped inside the church with several members of the clergy were firing back. They burst in there last Tuesday and took refuge after tanks and troops entered the city.
Army commandos were on the roof of the church, and helicopters hovered overhead.
A priest inside the church compound said: ''The Israeli soldiers carried out an armed attack on the Nativity church. They set fire to the parish building in front of the basilica.''
''Palestinians inside the basilica tried to put out the fire and one of them (Israeli soldiers) opened fire and killed a Palestinian. There is damage to the face of the Church itself,'' he said.
A Reuters correspondent watching from nearby said she heard Israeli soldiers shouting through loudhailers for those inside to give themselves up.
In Rome, the Franciscans condemned the shooting at the church.
Father David Jaeger, spokesman for custodians of Catholic sites in the Holy Land, who is currently in Rome, told Reuters: ''This is an act of indescribable barbarity. It is a violation of every law of humanity and civilisation.


Now the question is who are we going to believe? The priest or the Israelis?
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
ok BoltCase. I wasn't trying to use a credible source. I was just trying to show that there is alot of confusion and every story is two sided. For every source that you just quoted, I can find another source with a totally different viewpoint. For some reason, you always seem to take the Palestinian word at face value, or anyone's word at face value if it's anti-Israeli enough. This entire episode is a he said she said, and you're gonna believe the Palestinians. Fine. I withold judgement.
Text
Pasted from that article:


<< One of the few priests evacuated from the church told Israeli television yesterday that gunmen had shot their way in, and that the priests, monks and nuns were essentially hostages.
About 150 armed men, a number of them alleged by Israel to be on their "most wanted" list of terrorists and bombers, blasted their way through a steel door into the church, a clergyman inside the complex said using its only still-working telephone.The church is on the site where Christians believe Jesus was born.
The priest, who chose not to supply his name, declined to call the clergy "hostages," but repeatedly said in fluent English: "We have absolutely no choice. They have guns, we do not."
He added: "We tried to get the Palestinian gunmen to leave by a back door, but they refused, saying they could be shot by the Israelis.
They have taken up security positions inside our living quarters, and they are refusing to meet our repeated requests to leave at least some part of our premises."
>>



And also:



<< But Anton Salman, a lawyer who went into the complex together with the governor two to three hours after the gunmen had entered, said yesterday via cell phone that no churchmen were being held hostage, and that the convent staff had been dishing out food equally to civilians, church staff and gunmen. They were surviving on a diet of rice and spaghetti, and drawing water from wells within the church compound, he said >>



So you see, the confusion there is quite apparent.