Israeli Palestinian Direct Negotiations to start in 2 weeks

[Freshgeardude]

well this is litterally 10 minutes old. I was lucky to check at this time.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=183267

PM says direct negotiations with Palestinians in two weeks.


Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu announced at a ministerial meeting Sunday that direct negotiations with the Palestinians will begin by the middle of August.

Netanyahu added that he did not receive any Palestinian peace program until now.

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"There is no change in settlement freeze conditions," added Netanyahu.

Netanyahu's comments come after Palestinian Authority chief negotiator Saeb Erekat said that the Palestinians are proposing a detailed peace plan proposal that covers all the core issues.

Erekat stated that this proposal is the best one to date and covers issues such as Jerusalem, borders and refugees.

"We presented the proposal to [US Middle East envoy] George Mitchell over two months ago so that he would offer it to [Prime Minister Binyamin] Netanyahu, however we still haven't received any answers.

Erekat refused to reveal the details of the plan but said that the Palestinians do not want to disqualify Netanyhau as a partner for peace.

" I hope that [Netanyahu] will be a partner to peace so that we can reach a solution involving two states for two nations," the chief negotiator said.

Erekat also mentioned the letter that US President Barack Obama sent to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas saying that if the Palestinians don't enter direct talks then relations with Washington will be damaged.

"The letter did not contain threats, he requested that we enter into direct talks and stand shoulder to shoulder so that we can reach a two state solution," Erekat added.

Erekat expressed his opposition to rockets being targeted at Israel from Gaza.

"We have always opposed the launching of rockets towards Israel, we want a cease fire with the eventual goal of an end to the conflict," Erekat said.

This is too new, that only Jpost has it reported, so expect other news stations to pick up on it soon.



This is good news. Seems like PA finally saw a loss of support from the world with proximity talks.

Now we can get progress going.

 

[Murloc]

too bad extremists from both parts will not work on it and screw everything up again.
There's always hope though.

 

[Lemon law]

The issue was that Abbas was refusing direct talks without an Israeli settlement freeze, but its very possible that Obama still pressured Abbas into talks without a freeze.

In my mind the real question becomes, will Israel talk and talk and stall and stall, while meanwhile doing a lot of building on the West Bank and East Jerusalem, or alternately will both sides build on previous talks and rapidly reach a deal?

 

[Lemon law]

accidental double post

 

[MotF Bane]

Bets on Hamas firing rockets at Israel during the talks?

 

[Lemon law]

Bets on Hamas firing rockets at Israel during the talks?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there any evidence that Hamas was complicit in the latest missile firing? The missile may have been fired from inside Gaza, but was it Hamas or just some rouge group?

 

[hydroponik]

Until the mooslims get strong enough to fight again, as has been the case for many years.

 

[Moonbeam]

Bets on Hamas firing rockets at Israel during the talks?

What odds are you giving that Netanyahu will be assassinated by a Orthodox fanatic?

 

[Freshgeardude]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there any evidence that Hamas was complicit in the latest missile firing? The missile may have been fired from inside Gaza, but was it Hamas or just some rouge group?

while links dont tie it to Hamas, it was a military grade rocket AND no one is claiming responsibility

 

[Freshgeardude]

The issue was that Abbas was refusing direct talks without an Israeli settlement freeze, but its very possible that Obama still pressured Abbas into talks without a freeze.

In my mind the real question becomes, will Israel talk and talk and stall and stall, while meanwhile doing a lot of building on the West Bank and East Jerusalem, or alternately will both sides build on previous talks and rapidly reach a deal?

Hey look, Abbas has 2 weeks to ask for an extension of the settlement freeze. Lets see if he will screw it up

 

[Jhhnn]

Meh. We'll see. Netanyahu's idea of concessions is him accepting something that the Pals give him for free.

The Israeli settlers aren't done yet, they still covet what little the pals have left and intend to take it over time, the same as they've done for decades. Netanyahu's govt depends on their support, and they'd view any sort of honest attempt to make a permanent peace as betrayal. His govt would fall. He's too much of an egotist to let that happen. Very straightforward.

Netanyahu will stall for time, wait for some incident that will allow them to break off the discussions, even if they have to create it themselves in some fashion or another. If they can force an incident before November, so much the better for them, because they'll be helping repubs shove it up Obama's ass.

The Israeli tail is always willing and eager to wag the American dog... Netanyahu has said as much, himself.

 

[Lemon law]

Don't worry FGD, its not just Abbas asking Israel for a settlement freeze extension past
09/2010, add Obama, Mitchell and a very long list of people and entities.

It was simply the refusal of Israel to extent the settlement freeze that led to the why bother with direct talks response. With a settlement freeze extension, neither side benefits by stalling.

And for that matter, US envoy George Mitchell has been a busy boy running back and forth with indirect talks.

There has been a overabundance of talking and a dearth of action.

Ya I know, fan clubbers on both sides blame the other side for the lack of action, but I am still somewhat guess, that Israeli will catch the most of the world's blame if direct talks lead to nothing this time.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Don't worry FGD, its not just Abbas asking Israel for a settlement freeze extension past
09/2010, add Obama, Mitchell and a very long list of people and entities.

It was simply the refusal of Israel to extent the settlement freeze that led to the why bother with direct talks response. With a settlement freeze extension, neither side benefits by stalling.

And for that matter, US envoy George Mitchell has been a busy boy running back and forth with indirect talks.

There has been a overabundance of talking and a dearth of action.

Ya I know, fan clubbers on both sides blame the other side for the lack of action, but I am still somewhat guess, that Israeli will catch the most of the world's blame if direct talks lead to nothing this time.

I am done discussing this issue with you. a 6 months freeze was issued to get abbas to the table. An extension is not hard to issue, but why will israel keep extending a freeze for nothing in return?


Abbas needs to show his support to peace, get to the table and then a permanent freeze can be made. Until then, why should israel be giving in, like it has with gaza and lebanon and has gotten no where

 

[Lemon law]

I absolutely quiver in my boots as, "I am done discussing this issue with you."

As if I am much of anything of a decider here, the issue is not me FGD, its Israel and the rest of the world. But at last your Jerusalem post link implies there is a detailed proposal, direct talks may start in two weeks, and then we will see if Israeli grants a settlement extension or not.

But then again, I can't replicate your link anywhere, I even went back to a later link of the Jerusalem post, and can't even find the same story. Maybe the Jpost.com has since retracted it, but I can't find any evidence of that either.

But still its interesting reading, lots of breaking Israeli and mid-east news full of much verbiage and puffery from all sides.

 

[JSt0rm]

too bad extremists from both parts will not work on it and screw everything up again.
There's always hope though.

this^^

They are going to ramp up killing each other until and during the talks to fuck them up.

 

[Lemon law]

For what its worth, I checked out the Haaretz website and they had an equivalent but substantially different version of the Jpost. link

Netanyahu: Direct peace talks could begin this month

Netanyahu told his cabinet during its weekly meeting on Sunday that the face-to-face-negotiations could begin by mid-August, though he accused the Palestinians of stalling the process.

"It appears that direct talks will begin in mid-August, but this has not been confirmed, and we will become clear in the next few day," Netanyahu told the weekly cabinet meeting in Jerusalem.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has come under increasing international pressure to move from U.S.-mediated talks, which began in May after a 15-month break in official contact between the sides, to direct negotiations.

Abbas has so far resisted the move but last week the Arab League apparently undermined his position by formally backing direct talks.

Netanyahu told ministers that he had won support from Mubarak and Jordan's King Abdullah for the talks, and accused Abbas of stalling the process.

"I met with Mubarak and Abdullah and talked with them about direct talks," he said. "We took some very difficult steps, but the Palestinians have done nothing. In indirect negotiations, both sides spoke with the Americans, who did not pass information on to the other side."

During the cabinet meeting, Regional Development Minister Silvan Shalom asked Netanyahu to clarify a report in Haaretz on Saturday, which quoted that Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erekat, who said the Palestinians had submitted a far-reaching peace proposal to the U.S. administration of President Barack Obama.

According to Erekat, the offer was more generous than any previous Palestinian proposal.

Erekat said the PA's detailed offer would end the conflict with Israel and resolve all Palestinian claims - but that he had not yet received an answer from Israel.

As well as discussing the peace talks, Netanyahu also made reference to Friday's rocket attack on the city of Ashkelon, for which Israel retaliated by bombing targets in the Gaza Strip, killing a Hamas militant commander.

"Hamas is responsible for any attack that originates in the Gaza strip, and Israel reserves the right to defend its citizens," he said.

Israeli gestures

On Sunday, Erekat reponded to the prime minister's comments by saying that the starting date for talks depended on Netanyahu's willingness to suspend Jewish settlement building in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, Israel Radio reported.

A temporary construction freeze - which does not include East Jerusalem - is due to expire in September.

According to the radio report, which cited Palestinian sources quoted by an Arabic-language daily Al-Hayat, Israel is planning a series of gestures aimed at boosting Palestinian confidence ahead of the anticipated renewal of direct talks.

These were to include transfer to the PA control of several Palestinian towns, releasing Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails and giving Palestinian security forces more authority to restrict the entry of Israeli forces into areas they control, the report said.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Bets on Hamas firing rockets at Israel during the talks?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there any evidence that Hamas was complicit in the latest missile firing? The missile may have been fired from inside Gaza, but was it Hamas or just some rouge group?

Hamas does not want/need the talks to succeed.
Whether their direct group fired the missle or some other group; Hamas knew about it well in advance. A missle of that size can not be assembled and setup to launch on the sly.
Hamas has complete control of Gaza - nothing goes in/out without their approval and cut.

 

[Lemon law]

EagleKeeper, your assertions are somewhat bullshit from beginning to end by you saying, "Hamas does not want/need the talks to succeed.
Whether their direct group fired the missle or some other group; Hamas knew about it well in advance. A missle of that size can not be assembled and setup to launch on the sly. Hamas has complete control of Gaza - nothing goes in/out without their approval and cut."

All rather dubious contentions, especially when we ask how long some rouge group inside of Gaza may have been in possession of the missile?

And when Hamas has been somewhat careful to not fire a Missile at a major Israeli population center for a whole year, is it the last rocket left in the Hamas inventory?

IF Hamas wants to be a bitch, why did they not fire more rockets? Think EagleKeeper think, or is it too much to ask for logical thinking out of you?

 

[Freshgeardude]

And when Hamas has been somewhat careful to not fire a Missile at a major Israeli population center for a whole year, is it the last rocket left in the Hamas inventory?

oh firing missiles with random projections AWAY from cities is ok then?


terrorist sympathy seen YET AGAIN

 

[Lemon law]

oh firing missiles with random projections AWAY from cities is ok then?


terrorist sympathy seen YET AGAIN

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still FGD is ignoring is three things.

1. Why should Israel take 30 eyes and teeth for every eye or tooth? Is not there some Israeli restraint in a proportional response.

2. Do we know if its Hamas or some other group that fired the rocket?

3. Given all the Palestinian Israel murders every single day in Gaza, why should we assume Israel is the only entity being treated unfairly? Or that Israel is the only innocent as the new driven snow rascals, when in fact, both Israel and Hamas are rotten to the damn core equally bad rascals.

 

[Freshgeardude]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still FGD is ignoring is three things.

1. Why should Israel take 30 eyes and teeth for every eye or tooth? Is not there some Israeli restraint in a proportional response.

2. Do we know if its Hamas or some other group that fired the rocket?

3. Given all the Palestinian Israel murders every single day in Gaza, why should we assume Israel is the only entity being treated unfairly? Or that Israel is the only innocent as the new driven snow rascals, when in fact, both Israel and Hamas are rotten to the damn core equally bad rascals.

1. Hmm lets see here. Israel struck smuggling tunnels and a bomb maker, one who is WELL documented for the murder of tens of Israelis.

2. No group is claiming responsibility. Which means one can conclude either Hamas did it, or a group that doesnt want credit. the latter makes no sense. the former seems to make the most sense, because it was right after the Arab League endorsed direct talks

3. Lets see proof how israel murders gaza citizens every day, with their own hands.

The gaza strip and west bank have themselves to blame their problems on. If they did not attack israel over the years, the IDF wouldnt have been well funded as it is today, walls wouldnt have been built, discrimination of arabs wouldnt have happened in the sense they do today to detect threats.

and lastly, Israel is in no way the same as Hamas in any entity. Israel, first, doesnt call for the killing of millions of people, ignore a legal established country, kill the opposing party to violently take control of an area, kill foreign citizens AND kill its own citizens for not following shariah law the way they want it to be followed.

Israel has always acted in the interests of it's citizens. That is what a democracy is designed to be. What hamas is doing in gaza is a reign, an overruling. it is not an establishment for the people, by the people. it is an establishment for the rich and powerful and that it.

 

[Lemon law]

Lets see, FGD, you saying the Israeli government is acting for the best interests of its people is like saying Japan was acting for the best interests of its people during WW2.
It did not work out in the end, but the people loved it when they were winning.

As for me, I don't like Hamas any better than you do, but they were democratically elected.

As for Israel being a peaceful nation to its neighbors, that simply flies in face of facts. Lets see, Israel killed around 4000 civilians in Lebanon, boards ships on the high seas, bombs other countries, assassinates people in foreign countries, forges passports, shoots tea gas canisters at point blank range in the face of American citizens observing a protest, deliberately runs over American citizens with bulldozers,
and is constantly bullying its neighbors while treating 3 million people in a subhuman manner.

But yes, Israel has some virtues also, but only pro-Israeli fan boys see only the Israeli virtues while being totally blind to their vices.

 

[MovingTarget]

Lets hope that both sides are negotiating in good faith, and that they will stick to their agreements. Hope in one hand, shit in the other....you know how it goes. At least they are sitting down and having a dialogue. It is a step in the right direction...

 

[Freshgeardude]

Lets see, FGD, you saying the Israeli government is acting for the best interests of its people is like saying Japan was acting for the best interests of its people during WW2.
It did not work out in the end, but the people loved it when they were winning.

History is written by the winners, not the losers. If Japan and Germany successfully destroyed Europe, Asia, and the US, the history books would show us as the bad people.

The US was the major arms dealer for the Allies. How would that have gone down in the history books if the Axis had won.

Japan acted in its own interests, just like any country in the world would do.

As for me, I don't like Hamas any better than you do, but they were democratically elected.

No, violently killing Fatah and making them run out of Gaza is nothing democratic. The vote that recently went is also faux-democratic. Elections really? who was going to go against them?

As for Israel being a peaceful nation to its neighbors, that simply flies in face of facts. Lets see,

Israel killed around 4000 civilians in Lebanon- hmm, lets see here, did israel provoke lebanon? did Israel fire first? War is war. people die. get used to it.

boards ships on the high seas- lol you are still trying to beat the dead horse. Israel had every right to defend its blockade from a ship determined to run through it. 5 out of 6 ships were perfectly fine with it, 1 ship with crazy turkish people wasnt.

bombs other countries- umm War?

assassinates people in foreign countries- ha, Love it how you said PEOPLE instead of TERRORISTS.

forges passports- sure you got me there, but to be fair Israel isnt the only country to have EVER done that. Secondly, it was for the purpose of killing a high ranking hamas terrorist.


shoots tea gas canisters at point blank range in the face of American citizens observing a protest- this I havent heard of (may have, but not in clear detail) but bystanders get hurt to. How about that bystander in Iran that was shot and bled to death, becoming the symbol of the uproar around the elections.

and unless you have video proof that shows an israeli going out of his way, shooting the american while he was quite, not protecting/ being part of the protest, I wouldnt be making a big deal about this.

deliberately runs over American citizens with bulldozers,

yes, i am sure israel went out of its way to kill american citizens just like people go out of their way to step on leaves that will crunch.

and is constantly bullying its neighbors while treating 3 million people in a subhuman manner.

umm, which ones? Egypt and turkey are not being bullied. Lebanon has hezbollah IN the governement, syria has been helping hezbollah while trying to build a nuclear reactor in 2007.


And the 3 million deserve what they have when they defend suicide bombers, terrorists, and murders.

But yes, Israel has some virtues also, but only pro-Israeli fan boys see only the Israeli virtues while being totally blind to their vices.

no, it is you being blind about israel

 

[Lemon law]

FGD, IMHO, your failure lies in seeing only the virtues of Israel and only the vices of the other sides.

Its why I have no problem posting links like these.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/opinion/02karsh.html?ref=opinion

That quite properly point out the Arab side is a rather rotten bunch also. And so, to a large extent are the Palestinians, and the Israelis.

But at the end of the day, if we want to have valid opinions, we must view each of the sides, totally and brutally, in an unbiased manner, and see both their warts and flaws and also their virtues. Failing that, and any resulting opinion is no longer valid. Because at the rate Israel is going, Israel is playing you bet your life, and in time 275 million Arabs who hate 5.5 million Jews because Israel is doing everything to earn those Arab hatreds, is both long odds and not smart on Israel's part.

FGD, I do not want to see Jews driven into the sea anymore than you do, but when Israel bets it all, that is the other possible outcome.

Then, IMHO, we must impose onto that, our own unbiased version of human rights and justice, and apply it to the three main contesting sides, namely the Israelis, the surrounding Arab States, and the Palestinian people in the case of the Mid-east.

Sure its easy to say let one side win totally leaving the other two with nothing, but any realist realizes that simply can not happen and will not happen.

So smarter people than FGD asks, where is that middle ground, that both constitutes our shared concept of justice and the bigger partial win win win for all compromise that can result in a final peace in the mid-east.

The FGD delusion is that Israel will ever know any acceptance or peace in the mid-east, while building that on the totally unsustainable foundation of brutalizing and dehumanizing 3 million Palestinians.

Now what exactly is your goal FGD? If I were Israel, I would want the right to exist and the right to be a legitimate and well liked neighbor in the Mid-east that gets along with its neighbors. Is Israel accomplishing its goal or making that end goal unsustainable? And please, FGD, don't think short term, time has a habit of wounding all heels.