Israeli/Palestinian conflict... What do you think.

[Opinionated]

I think that Chairman Arafat made a huge mistake by walking out of the summit a couple of weeks ago. The Israelis were more flexible at that meeting than ever before. But Mr Arafat refused to make ANY compromises.

Now it appears that he is encouraging his people to violence in the streets as an attempt to provoke the Israelis into confrontation. He is using the media coverage of the confrontation to try and gain additional leverage against the Israeli government in negotiations. What he has failed to recognize is that there IS a limit to the patience the Israelis are willing to exhibit. (For instance, attack IDF soldiers, we retaliate). Anyone who has half a brain knows that the Israelis don't tolerate attacks on their citizens. Mr Arafat is responsible for starting (or not preventing) the violence in the territory HE is supposed to be leading, thus it is up to HIM to be the lead in stopping it.

Let us not forget, that all radio, TV, newspapers, and even textbooks in the Palestinianadministered territories are strictly controlled by Arafat and his organization (you can't really call it a government).

He's got 40,000 armed police to keep the peace on the streets in the West Bank and Gaza. If he can't (I suspect won't) control it, then perhaps the Palestinians should seek alternative leadership.

Mr Arafat is a terrorist. He was, is, and always will be a terrorist. He doesn't want peace, he wants total capitulation. let us not forget, that the Palestinians are MUCH better off over the past several years than they have been in decades. THAT was because the Israelis were giving the PLO the benefit of the doubt as to their intent to renounce terrorism and negotiate in good faith. Now it appears that either 1) Arafat refuses to live up to the promise he made on behalf of his people, or 2) he doesn't have the ability to lead his people effectively anymore. Either way, he'd better get his head out of his 4th point of contact, or he's going to find it rather difficult to stay in one place for more than 15 minutes at a time. The Israelis are not going to put up with his duplicitous crap much longer.

Remember, it ain't just kids and young folks in the streets throwing rocks 9which IS terrorism BTW), it is also masked gunmen and complicity/participation on the part of the PLOs "security" forces as well. What the hell is up with the parents of these children anyway. What would posess a parent to let/send their children into the street to throw rocks at armed soldiers, start fires, burn cars, lynch soldiers, etc.

And now they are so peace oriented, that they've gone and burned the oldest Temple in Jericho.... geez, that's REALLY going to convince the Israelis that the Palestinians want peace.

Opinionated

 

[Shuxclams]

*yawn* been doing it all day, try another thread.













SHUX

 

[KotchY]

I think that they are all idiots, killing is not getting them anywhere, thats why i dont beleave in religions, the mideast is a "melting pot" of many different religions, and look at all the fighting..Religions just give more for you to be judged by...

 

[Opinionated]

The purpose of this thread is to move the discussion OUT of the "Navy ship attacked" thread. It's a separate discussion, and I suspect that though YOU may be tired of it, there will be more trouble tonight and tomorrow. This ain't going away.

Opinionated

 

[UNKNOWNDUDE]

there will be never peace because its never enough for palestinias.

 

[Moonbeam]

The Arab Isreali conflict was summed up in Star Treak in the episode of the eternal battle between the guys with the half black, half white faces. I said that if you switched their babies in the hospitals, children would grow up hating their parents. Each is absolutely right and has God to prove it. Both are filled with irrational hate of the other, all justified, of course. They care nothing for the consequences of their actions. There is a possible solution. Their feuding may drag others in and drive the price of oil high enough that Americans won't be able to afford to drive their cars. If that happens, the call to sterilize the contagion with neutron bombs will become deafening.

 

[Shuxclams]

Here's one,, and another,, and yet another.....etc...etc...., try the search function.








SHUX

 

[Opinionated]

Moonbeam et al. - I don't think that it will come to dropping neutron bombs by any stretch, BUT you can bet that continued conflict (especially if it continues to escalate), coupled with a significant rise in oil prices, an oil embargo against the US in an attempt to coerce us into deserting Israel, etc. will definitely push this into a priority national security issue for the US.

Most of you guys are too young to remember either of the US oil shortages back in the 70s, but I don't think Americans realize what trouble 60% dependence on foreign (primarily Middle Eastern) crude can and will produce in this country if the supply is interrupted.

I remember the gas lines (3 hours to get fuel to go to work). That's NOTHING compared to what could happen today. Then we were less than 50% dependent on foreign supplies. We simply do not currently have the capacity/capability to produce enough energy to offset an even minor interruption in supply.

Here are SOME of the possibilities:

Gas rationing, long gas lines, $3-5.00 per gallon prices, huge increases in airline prices , restricted flight schedules, huge increases in transportation costs (MOST of our industrial and consumer goods are transported by trucks, and we don't have the rail stock or lines to absorb much of this volume). Just the increases in transportation costs will do a serious number on production and prices.... passed straight through to consumers, who btw will have less money to afford higher priced goods due to paying more at the pump. NOT to mention shortages of fuel to produce electricity, and/or at a minimum serious increases in electricity costs.... and less disposable income. In the immediate term, those fuel oil shortages they are talking about in the Northeast would be seriously compounded by additional interruptions in supply. (We're talking about people freezing to death this winter due to the price or unavailability of adequate supplies).

Watch the stock market lose 40% of its value.... Boom, there go the surpluses... now we are in a deficit spending position.

OK, we have a strategic reserve.... yeah, about a 45-50 day supply at this point. And of course, the Energy Department has proven they can't even distribute 30 million barrels properly.... try distributing 10 million barrels a day for two months. They can't do it. And it doesn't really matter anyway, since we don't have the domestic refining capacity to handle the volume anyway.

The above scenario, or even substantial portions of it would be absolutely intolerable to our National Security. We would be FORCED (by our own short-sightedness on energy policy) to respond militarily to secure our energy supplies in the Middle East. Our response would likely be met with some "resistance" in the region (to put it mildly).

Now, take all of the above and compound it manifold by all of the energy importers in the developed and third world: Japan, UK, most of Western Europe, etc....) And you can see the huge impact this would have on the global economic climate.

Remember, MOST real wars are ultimately fought over access to limited resources by countries in need of those same resources.

This could definitely get ugly in a hurry.

Opinionated

 

[Shuxclams]

<< Most of you guys are too young to remember either of the US oil shortages back in the 70s >>



There are some older folks here, we just don't act like it.



<< Boom, there go the surpluses... now we are in a deficit spending position. >>



Take Social Security out of the hands of Congress and that will happen, CAUSE THERE IS NO SURPLUS!

BTW; sounds like you love to hear your self pontificate.




SHUX

 

[Opinionated]

<< Take Social Security out of the hands of Congress and that will happen, CAUSE THERE IS NO SURPLUS! >>



Actually, though the SS surplus does make up a significant portion of the overall surpluses, there IS some &quot;true&quot; surplus. Though I suspect you won't see much of one next year. I agree with you that the SS fund should be dedicated to that program. (another discussion entirely).



<< BTW; sounds like you love to hear your self pontificate. >>



Sounds remarkably close to a personal insult there Shux. I'll make a deal with you. You respect my right to state my position without unflattering response, and I'll show you the same courtesy. Frankly, I'm just trying to state my position clearly and completely in an attempt to avoid &quot;sound bite syndrome&quot;. I have spent most of my life trying to educate myself responsibly on matters I believe to be of importance to this country, and as a result, I have formed what I believe to be fairly well-supported positions on a wide range of subjects..... hence why I chose the handle....

Opinionated

 

[Shuxclams]

<< You respect my right to state my position without unflattering
response, and I'll show you the same courtesy. >>



Deal, but I think you picked a tough crowd to practice your political asperations on. IMHO. Fact remains, there have been numerous posts about this subject, some even have some very intresting subject matter, I thought those would be more interesting discussions.







SHUX

 

[AngelOfDeath]

Once again a sad day for humanity. Destroying ourselfs really gonna help us...

AoD

 

[403Forbidden]

I side with Palestine

 

[pen^2]

...and i side with 403Forbidden

 

[DorkBoy]

We need to wipe the f***ing Arabs off this lousy planet and forget about the f***ing jews too.

 

[Wangel]

I think it is time to bring out the 'big guns'. Little hand guns, knives, machine guns, and other small killing devices are not working. Time to bring out some major fire-power like missles and bigger bombs. If there are no people, there can't be any fighting. So the logical thing is to remove the people. End of fighting.

 

[Anybody]

I dont believe Im saying this again..its TREK... TREK....jesus christ...

 

[Opinionated]

<< I side with Palestine >>



403Forbidden, BrotherMan - Fair enough, but can either of you give me a well though out reason &quot;Why?&quot; you choose to do so?



<< We need to wipe the f***ing Arabs off this lousy planet and forget about the f***ing jews too. >>



DorkBoy - Sounds a bit extreme there, dude. Do you really feel that way? Why? Or are you just frustrated and angry at the situation?



<< I think it is time to bring out the 'big guns'. Little hand guns, knives, machine guns, and other small killing devices are not working. Time to bring out some major fire-power like missles and bigger bombs. If there are no people, there can't be any fighting. So the logical thing is to remove the people. End of fighting. >>



You are kidding right? Maybe over-exaggerating for effect. Surely you can't really advocate the extermination of millions of people as a solution to conflict. I hate to contemplate what the result would be if that type of poilicy were taken to its logical conclusion.



<< I dont believe Im saying this again..its TREK... TREK....jesus christ... >>



Anybody - I've seen that Star Trek episode many times as well. I can see how you would come to such a conclusion, but I do not believe that we should adopt a defeatist view about this situation. The MAJORITY of the people on BOTH sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict want to simply live together as neighbors in peace. In spite of whichever side one happens to favor, i think we owe it to those people to keep working toward solutions to the problems.

Opinionated

 

[The Wildcard]

To tell you the truth, the US needs to get out of that conflict. These two people will never be able to get along because of their difference in religion ( they are different right? ) and if i have learned anything, differences in religion is very deep and no simple negociation is gonna change the belief of a population of people.

 

[pen^2]

amen. the US has no place in the whole thing. i would be hard pressed to imagine myself living along peacefully with some invaders who settled in my turf without my conscent and are discriminating and killing my people. i dont see israel as a lawful state of country.

 

[Opinionated]

The fact of the matter is that we ARE &quot;in it&quot;, and we don't really have the option of NOT being in it.

Since we are 60% dependent on the foreign oil in the region, it would simply be strategic suicide to our national security to NOT have Israel as a stanch pro-Western ally. In case you haven't noticed, not many of the other countries in that region would allow us to use their territory as a base from which to secure our energy supplies (if interrupted by political coercion). Now a few of them HAVE in the past &quot;cooperated&quot; with us, but the second it wasn't in their interest to do so, we'd be persona non grata.

Opinionated

 

[DABANSHEE]

&quot;In case you haven't noticed, not many of the other countries in that region would allow us to use their territory as a base from which to secure our energy supplies (if interrupted by political coercion)&quot;

Are you talking out of your hat Opinionated? The simple fact is that every single Arab state has said they'd embargo the US immediatly if there were any US troops based in Israel. That's why there have never been US troops based in Israel(sure you get the odd one there advising on technical matters &amp; what not, but no US combat troops have or will ever be based in Israel, that's official State Dept policy). Besides, as was shown during the Gulf War, the US does not need Israel at all to protect oil supplies if interrupted by political coercion. They have thousands of troops in Saudi Arabia just for that purpose.

Actually its by being an ally of Israel that the US puts at risk its oil supplys. (look at 1974 when the Arabs cut oil supplys because the US was helping Israel)

The simple fat is Trumans advisors were right when they told him not to back the formation of Israel, as it would make the whole Arab world hate the US &amp; therefore would be bad for US interests in the area.

fact is all the Arab states would double oil production overnight for the US, if the US said it would cut ties with Israel (well not double, but you know what I mean).

Plus, virtually the Only reason that terrorist groups like Bin Laden's get so much support in the Middle East is because of the hypocracy they see in US support of Israel. Like funding them to the tune of $85 billion in aid over the last 30 years, whereas they should of had the guts to be supporting UN sanctions &amp; embargos against Israel for refusing to comply with UN resolutions concerning the return of refugees &amp; the return of confiscated lands, yet the US enforces sanctions against Iraq, no matter what effect they have on the population there. There's another bit of hypocracy they enforce sanctions against Iraq over weapons of mass destruction, yet the US does not do anything about Israel having 200 nukes. They even helped the Israelis build them even though the US is a signitary to the nuclear non-proliferations treaty.

When you get down to it the whole conflict was caused by Israelis coveting other peoples lands &amp; homes, if the Palestinians weren't living there at the time &amp; some other group was instead, like for example the Maronites, we'd have a Israeli/Maronite conflict today instead of a Israeli/Palestinian conflict. In that sense its 100% Israel's fault the problem existed. How would you Americans feel if a bunch of foreigners coveted your lands &amp; homes &amp; by force of arms moves in &amp; drove you into refugee camps &amp; confiscated your homes &amp; treated you like 2nd class citizens, &amp; then actually took your rights of citizenship to your own lands away?

 

[noxipoo]

We don't live there so I doubt anything we think is really the truth. I just don't like the biased US media. 2 soldiers die and its cold blooded murder and stuff. how many civilians died and injured by the helicopters? hell of a lot more and its not even mentioned. bah to the media

 

[sandorski]

Opinion: I agree that US energy policy sucks. Sure, oil is a market commodity, but as was illustrated in the 70's it is also a weapon. The US government had the opportunity to develop alternative energy resources, but decided to do nothing! Oh well, Canada and Mexico don't mind high oil prices.

To blame all Israelis and all Palestinians in this conflict is a mistake. There are small groups of @$$holes on both sides that have nothing better to do than drag their neighbours and fellow countrymen into a painful neverending cycle of death and destruction. Israel and Palestine should round up the trouble makers and throw them in prison for their own sake.

 

[Opinionated]

<< To blame all Israelis and all Palestinians in this conflict is a mistake. >>



Wasn't saying that at all.... Just that Israel is a major strategic ally (and geographically important place.).

Opinionated