israeli navy fires on Gaza aid flotilla

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palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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They were being violently ambushed by the Israelis. They defended themselves.

Some people, when pointlessly attacked, will defend themselves as the passengers did. Israelis fired on the ship, then further attacked it by dropping commandos. You can't blame the passengers for defending themselves.

Lie. There were certainly injuries on the other ships.

Israelis were the ones that ambushed. Passengers defended themselves.
I knew you were going to claim that it was pure "self-defense."

You're completely full of shit. Everyone knows -- the videos clearly demonstrate -- that the activists armed themselves long before the first Israeli boarded the ship. There were no real bullets fired until after the commandos were attacked on deck.

That is commonly referred to as an "ambush."

This entire event was a pre-conceived publicity stunt involving activists whose entire purpose and intent -- planned long before they themselves even boarded the ship -- was to cause an international incident and become "martyrs" for Islam... and you damned well fucking know that. They knew from the moment they set sail that Israeli forces would stop and/or board their ship prior to their arrival in Gaza, so they plotted, planned, and prepared their ambush accordingly.

None of the other ships boarded by the same Israeli forces resulted in drama or deaths.

I'm done debating with you. You're quite clearly under the influence, or perhaps even on the payroll, of al Sahab.
 
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Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
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Exactly^^^^

The only activists killed were the one's who tried to kill Israelis.

This is how the situation revolved:

IDF troops board ship with non-lethal weapons
"Activists" planned on attacking the seals
Israel used their paint-ball guns
Activists claimed they were victim to disproportionate glass attack (paintballs can be confused as glass balls)
Activist steals holsted pistol of Seals, wounds him
Another Seal tends to the wounds of the injured seal
Activist attacks both seals
Seal responds and shoots attacker in the face, and another 10 are killed in the ensuing gun fight.

video and audio footage confirm Israel's POV.

Al-Jazeera (biased against israel) interviewed the captain who said some of the activists had planned on "martying" themselves before they even left cyprus - video footage proves this

IDF provides a list of the combatants killed, 4 of whom had expressed their intent on attacking israel and their families in Turkey boasted of this

AP and mainstream press report jihadist link to ship

Weapons, bullet proof fests, munitions all found on ship

Aid is largely worthless, was mostly pilled in the haul. The cargo was clearly the activists and the training they would provide to Hamas (turkish mercenaries on board).

i find the IDF's response morally rehrensible. The IDF sent their soldiers in without rifles and exposed them to a hostile enemy. A NAVY SEAL WAS THROWN OVER BOARD BY AN ACTIVIST!

Next time they board - anyone who moves gets shot.

Better yet, just sink the ship.

It's not worth risking the lives of Israeli soldiers for homicidal Palestinian supporters.

We wouldn't sacrifice our soldiers for this shit.
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
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I knew you were going to claim that it was pure "self-defense."

You're completely full of shit. Everyone knows -- the videos clearly demonstrate -- that the activists armed themselves long before the first Israeli boarded the ship. There were no real bullets fired until after the commandos were attacked on deck.

That is commonly referred to as an "ambush."

The Israelis fired on the ship with rubber bullets and stun grenades then set on it with armed commandos at night in international waters. This is commonly referred to as an "attack".

The passengers defended themselves from said attack. Commonly referred to as "defense".

This entire event was a pre-conceived publicity stunt involving activists whose entire purpose and intent -- planned long before they themselves even boarded the ship -- was to cause an international incident and become "martyrs" for Islam... and you damned well fucking know that.

The ship was trying to get aid to Gaza or draw attention to Israel's illegal blockade. I'd like proof of that martyr bit.

They knew from the moment they set sail that Israeli forces stop and/or board their ship prior to their arrival in Gaza, so they plotted, planned, and prepared their ambush accordingly.

No, they knew from the moment Israel started firing on the ship that they wee being attacked. They grabbed what they could to defend their ship.

None of the other ships boarded by the same Israeli forces resulted in drama or deaths.

There was drama and injuries on the other ships.

I'm done debating with you. You're quite clearly under the influence, or perhaps even on the payroll, of al Sahab.

I don't even know what that is. I imagine that you are under the influence or on the payroll of the hasbara/megaphone people.

Perhaps this payroll.
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/07/21/twitterers-paid-to-spread-israeli-propag-1
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
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video and audio footage confirm Israel's POV.

Video and audio disproves Israel's POV and shows them attacking ship.

Al-Jazeera (biased against israel) interviewed the captain who said some of the activists had planned on "martying" themselves before they even left cyprus - video footage proves this

Link to Al Jazeera article?

IDF provides a list of the combatants killed, 4 of whom had expressed their intent on attacking israel and their families in Turkey boasted of this

Link?

Weapons, bullet proof fests, munitions all found on ship

Straight up lie. Even Jpost doesn't claim that. Only you in your fantasy.

Aid is largely worthless, was mostly pilled in the haul.

Lie. Thousands of tons of aid on the ships worth much.

The cargo was clearly the activists and the training they would provide to Hamas (turkish mercenaries on board).

More made up fantasy shit.

A NAVY SEAL WAS THROWN OVER BOARD BY AN ACTIVIST!

Yay! Don't fucking attack ships.

Next time they board - anyone who moves gets shot.

Next time don't board. Shut down illegal blockade.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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If the aid was so valuable, then why did Hamas reject it?

Where can you show that the blockade was illegal? Opinions are not proof. Legal findings are.
 

Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
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Video and audio disproves Israel's POV and shows them attacking ship.

lol what? what video did you watch?

Link?

Link to Al Jazeera article?

Straight up lie. Even Jpost doesn't claim that. Only you in your fantasy.

Lie. Thousands of tons of aid on the ships worth much.

More made up fantasy shit.

We've had this conversation before. I have posted loads of sources whenever you asked for them. If I recall you even agreed the ship had bullet proof vests.

For the last fucking time - I will provide sources again. About time you start providing sources (real sources, not fringe blogs):

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=177475

Fire-arms aboard:

jpg_0353.jpg


ita1851.jpg


gas masks

jpg_0420.jpg


night-vision goggles, sniper scope

Flotilla had ties to Turkish extremist organization:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/03/turkish-group-behind-flotilla-is-gazas-new-hero/

Osama Bin Laden:

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=177457

Actual aid on the ship was, like I said, largely worthless:

According to the military, the 25-odd truckloads of equipment offloaded from the ships is roughly a quarter of the amount Israel transported into the Gaza strip every day.

According to the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration, 100 truckloads of assorted goods are transferred into Gaza daily, and since the beginning of the year, nearly 11,000 trucks full of equipment have been transferred into Gaza.

Regarding the types of goods found in the ships’ cargo holds – wheelchairs, stretchers, hospital beds, electric wheelchairs, crutches, bandages, cotton swabs as well as food, clothing and toys – sources in the Gaza CLA say they are regularly allowed into Gaza and are not in shortage.

Hamas has yet to allow the delivery of the "aid" on the ship, probably because there isn't enough space in Gaza to house it and all the good stuff was taken out:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169

There were over 7 ships in the flotilla, all of which were board peacefully - accept for one.

Over 750 activists on board.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?ID=176998

Israel continues to be the principal sponsor of Gaza:

http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/06/...gaza-strip-for-may-30th-june-5th-7-june-2010/

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32650677/...e-and-Humanitarian-Aid-May-30th-June-5th-2010

About 24 million lbs of humanitarian aid delivered between May 30th-June 7th through the 3 crossings on the Israel/Gaza border - all supervised by the international community and UNRWA.

Feel free to discredit a single fact in my post. I wager you'll just accuse me of lying again...
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
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lol what? what video did you watch?

All of them. They all show Israel attacking the ship.

We've had this conversation before. I have posted loads of sources whenever you asked for them. If I recall you even agreed the ship had bullet proof vests.

Just blogs ands Jpost.

For the last fucking time - I will provide sources again. About time you start providing sources (real sources, not fringe blogs):

I'll continue to post real sources, maybe you should start.


Blatant lie. This has been pointed out to you before but you continue to lie about it.

Not even JPost is claiming they had fire arms. They say "may have" and no legitimate source is claiming anything similar.

You are lying about even what you're one bullshit source says.


gas masks


night-vision goggles, sniper scope

Could you point to a reliable source other than an IDF blog that confirms these? Actually it doesn't matter if they had these.


"Israel accuses Kaya's group, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, of supporting terrorism. The Turkish activists vehemently deny that, saying they're strictly involved in humanitarian efforts and have to deal with Hamas, since it is the authority in Gaza."

Oh no! Isreal has accused them of "ties".


Oh my, even JPost propaganda ties are extremely meaningless.

Actual aid on the ship was, like I said, largely worthless:

And you lie again. Thousands of tons of worthwhile aid.

Hamas has yet to allow the delivery of the "aid" on the ship, probably because there isn't enough space in Gaza to house it and all the good stuff was taken out:

They've refused until all detainees are released....but then you knew that. Yes, Israel probably did steal a lot of it.

There were over 7 ships in the flotilla, all of which were board peacefully - accept for one.

Nope, there were beatings, tasings, and injuries on the other ships.
 

Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
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All of them. They all show Israel attacking the ship.



Just blogs ands Jpost.



I'll continue to post real sources, maybe you should start.



Blatant lie. This has been pointed out to you before but you continue to lie about it.

Not even JPost is claiming they had fire arms. They say "may have" and no legitimate source is claiming anything similar.

You are lying about even what you're one bullshit source says.




Could you point to a reliable source other than an IDF blog that confirms these? Actually it doesn't matter if they had these.



"Israel accuses Kaya's group, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, of supporting terrorism. The Turkish activists vehemently deny that, saying they're strictly involved in humanitarian efforts and have to deal with Hamas, since it is the authority in Gaza."

Oh no! Isreal has accused them of "ties".



Oh my, even JPost propaganda ties are extremely meaningless.



And you lie again. Thousands of tons of worthwhile aid.



They've refused until all detainees are released....but then you knew that. Yes, Israel probably did steal a lot of it.



Nope, there were beatings, tasings, and injuries on the other ships.

Right, everything's is a lie - it's all a conspiracy.

those innocent victim jihadists were victim to yet another devastating assault by the racist zionists who dared to inspect their cargo for weapons...

to deprive gazans of their bullet proof vests, such evil and inhumanity!!!!

we all know in the declaration of human rights it is enshrined that palestinians have the universal right to attack jews, any attempt to stifle such actions is a violation of international law!!!1111
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
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Right, everything's is a lie - it's all a conspiracy.

Well, I guess Jpost lies often and you post it sure.

those innocent victim jihadists were victim to yet another devastating assault by the racist zionists who dared to inspect their cargo for weapons...

So you're calling all the humanitarians Jihadists. That makes you look silly.

to deprive gazans of their bullet proof vests, such evil and inhumanity!!!!

You haven't really proved bullet proof vests but it you make it look like something they should have.

we all know in the declaration of human rights it is enshrined that palestinians have the universal right to attack jews, any attempt to stifle such actions is a violation of international law!!!1111

Israelis clearly attacked a humanitarian ship first. We all know that. The passengers defended their ship. Video proof. Israel admitted it.
 

Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,901
205
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Israelis clearly attacked a humanitarian ship first. We all know that. The passengers defended their ship. Video proof. Israel admitted it.
we've been over this a thousand times.

1) the ship was warned - according to the law
2) the ship was asked to be inspected - according to the law
3) the ship refused to stop - thus breaking the law

i see no problem here. humanitarian or not, you break the law, you get stopped.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
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we've been over this a thousand times.

1) the ship was warned - according to the law
2) the ship was asked to be inspected - according to the law
3) the ship refused to stop - thus breaking the law

i see no problem here. humanitarian or not, you break the law, you get stopped.

Nonsense. Isreal's claims of following the law are ridiculous since the siege/blockade of Gaza is in itself illegal. Attacking ships on international waters is illegal. Murdering people is illegal. No matter what the Israeli propaganda says, and most of it has been proven outright lies, some of them even admitted by Israel itself, this was an act of outright murder by IDF - here is a vid that shows the side IDF didnt want shown when their propaganda blast hit the airwaves:

Israeli commandos at their best....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlElXOJV4CA&feature=player_embedded

Sieg heil ziomuppets.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
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Ofc it is. There is nothing legal about collective punishment.

When Israel is forgetting it's own history (remember the Exodus and the Warsaw ghetto, past terrorist actions by the Irgun etc) and have become the oppressors and murderers clearly there is a legitimacy problem. To claim selfdefense for actions like the Gaza murders and this latest action is ludicrous and clearly deranged. "Israe"l is clearly very mentally disturbed.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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Nonsense. Isreal's claims of following the law are ridiculous since the siege/blockade of Gaza is in itself illegal. Attacking ships on international waters is illegal. Murdering people is illegal. No matter what the Israeli propaganda says, and most of it has been proven outright lies, some of them even admitted by Israel itself, this was an act of outright murder by IDF - here is a vid that shows the side IDF didnt want shown when their propaganda blast hit the airwaves:

Israeli commandos at their best....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlElXOJV4CA&feature=player_embedded

Sieg heil ziomuppets.

Watched the video but see nothing that matches the graphics overlay claims. Don't fall into the trap of believing every bit of propaganda that happens to support your own bias.

You also continue to make the sock puppet claims that blockades and their enforcement at "illegal."

I spent quite a bit of time reviewing the legitimacy of blockade and enforcement by reading the applicable conventions and could find nothing that would make this particular blockade and enforcement action any different than any other, other than it seems to have been executed 100% according to the practices that have been codified.

Perhaps you could justify your extreme bias with something more than a self indulgent rant?
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
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we've been over this a thousand times.

1) the ship was warned - according to the law
2) the ship was asked to be inspected - according to the law
3) the ship refused to stop - thus breaking the law

i see no problem here. humanitarian or not, you break the law, you get stopped.

1. The blockade is illegal - according to the law.
2. Israel has no right to attack a ship in international waters because of an illegal blockade - according to the law.
3. Israel attacked the ship - thus breaking the law.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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Ofc it is. There is nothing legal about collective punishment.

As the population of Gaza voted in the murderous Hamas and do nothing to remove them from power, should the population be held accountable?

When the Germans elected the Nazis into power and supported them in their actions, should the population have not been held accountable?

The idea of some kind of illegitimacy of collective punishment is a strange one. Does not the Gazan population encourage Hamas to shoot thousands of missiles into Israel, to send suicide bombers against the Israeli civilian population? Do they not clothe and feed and provide money to their government to buy their weapons?

The Israelis left Gaza, abandoned their claims, gave the Gazans the opportunity to elect their own government. They thought the Gazans would choose a course of moderation and peace. Instead, the Gazans chose to empower Hamas.

The Israelis now have every right to go back into Gaza and remove the threat they pose. Instead they have chosen a blockade to prevent the arming of Hamas. And you think this is worse than a full invasion that is the solution most likely to eliminate the violence of Hamas?
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
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Watched the video but see nothing that matches the graphics overlay claims. Don't fall into the trap of believing every bit of propaganda that happens to support your own bias.

That's what you're doing.

You also continue to make the sock puppet claims that blockades and their enforcement at "illegal."

You continue sock puppet claims that the blockade is "legal".

I spent quite a bit of time reviewing the legitimacy of blockade and enforcement by reading the applicable conventions and could find nothing that would make this particular blockade and enforcement action any different than any other, other than it seems to have been executed 100% according to the practices that have been codified.

I spent quite a bit of time reviewing the illegitimacy of the blockade.

Perhaps you could justify your extreme bias with something more than a self indulgent rant?

The uN warned Israel their blockade was illegal. They ignored it.
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
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As the population of Gaza voted in the murderous Hamas and do nothing to remove them from power, should the population be held accountable?

Israel should be held accountable for their leadership as well.

The idea of some kind of illegitimacy of collective punishment is a strange one. Does not the Gazan population encourage Hamas to shoot thousands of missiles into Israel, to send suicide bombers against the Israeli civilian population? Do they not clothe and feed and provide money to their government to buy their weapons?

Does not the Israeli population encourage Israel to kill random Palestinians, to build illegal settlements, to bomb Palestinians, to kill far and away more Palestinians than Israelis are killed? Do they not clothe and feed and provide money to their government to buy weapons (well the US does a lot of that).

The Israelis now have every right to go back into Gaza and remove the threat they pose. Instead they have chosen a blockade to prevent the arming of Hamas. And you think this is worse than a full invasion that is the solution most likely to eliminate the violence of Hamas?

So Gazans have the right to go into Israel and remove the the threat they pose and eliminate the violence of Israel?
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
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1. The blockade is illegal - according to the law.
2. Israel has no right to attack a ship in international waters because of an illegal blockade - according to the law.
3. Israel attacked the ship - thus breaking the law.
Please demonstrate, using references, that the blockade is "illegal."
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
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They were warned it was illegal a long time ago.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539363,00.html
You will need to go a bit deeper than that story -- and one woman's opinion -- to find the truth of the matter...

Start here:
Q&A: Is Israel's naval blockade of Gaza legal?
What is the legality of the blockade and did Israel's intervention breach international law? Below are some questions and answers on the issue:

CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA?
Yes it can, according to the law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea."

Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

"On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.

WHAT ARE INTERNATIONAL WATERS?
Under the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea a coastal state has a "territorial sea" of 12 nautical miles from the coast over which it is sovereign. Ships of other states are allowed "innocent passage" through such waters.

There is a further 12 nautical mile zone called the "contiguous zone" over which a state may take action to protect itself or its laws.

"However, strictly beyond the 12 nautical miles limit the seas are the "high seas" or international waters," Roche said.

The Israeli navy said on Monday the Gaza bound flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel. The Turkish captain of one of the vessels told an Istanbul news conference after returning home from Israeli detention they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters.

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say.

CAN ISRAEL USE FORCE WHEN INTERCEPTING SHIPS?
Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.

"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.

Israeli authorities said marines who boarded the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara opened fire in self-defense after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.

Legal experts say proportional force does not mean that guns cannot be used by forces when being attacked with knives.

"But there has got to be a relationship between the threat and response," Kraska said.

The use of force may also have other repercussions.

"While the full facts need to emerge from a credible and transparent investigation, from what is known now, it appears that Israel acted within its legal rights," said J. Peter Pham, a strategic adviser to U.S. and European governments.

"However, not every operation that the law permits is necessarily prudent from the strategic point of view."

OPPONENTS HAVE CALLED ISRAEL'S RAID "PIRACY." WAS IT?
No, as under international law it was considered a state action.

"Whether what Israel did is right or wrong, it is not an act of piracy. Piracy deals with private conduct particularly with a pecuniary or financial interest," Kraska said.

HAVE THERE BEEN ANY SHIPPING DISRUPTIONS AFTER THE RAID?
None so far but the International Chamber of Shipping (ICS), an association which represents 75 percent of the world's merchant fleet, has expressed "deep concern" over the boarding by Israeli forces, arguing that merchant ships have a right to safe passage and freedom of navigation in international waters.

"These fundamental principles of international law must always be upheld by all of the world's nations," the ICS said.

For links to the maritime declarations click on: here or here
 
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kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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You will need to go a bit deeper than that story -- and on woman's opinion -- to find the truth of the matter...

Start here:
Rather, you've a compulsion to obfuscate, which causes you to post an article which argues around the fact that blockading humanitarian aid is flagrantly illegal under international law.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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The UN can't do shit to rectify Israel's gross violations of international law because US veto power over the UNSC is exploited to prevent anything of the sort.
 
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