israeli navy fires on Gaza aid flotilla

[flavio]

The Israeli blockade does not prevent shipments of food, medical supplies, etc. It does stop the shipment of heavy weapons from suppliers like Iran to Hamas.

An uninformed Israeli apologist. Oh look, chocolate, biscuits, fishing poles, jam, nuts, potato chips, paper, newspapers, and chickens.. among other things.

# wood for construction
# cement
# iron

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf

 

[Jaskalas]

Israel has cut off all communication to and from the activists and journalists that were on the boat so we will just have Israel's one sided story.

Gee, I wonder what the terrorist propaganda is going to tell us once Israel lets them go? It's a no brainer, sort of like Baghdad Bob. I really don't care what the enemy has to say.

 

[Tangerines]

As Perknose has pointed out, American Liberals have always supported the the Israeli right to exist, and continue to do so still.

I think it's hilarious when people talk about Israel's "right to exist". They're a legitimate country and have been for some time now. It's like talking about Canada's "right to exist". Just because they're surrounded by a bunch of Muslim countries with strongly anti-Semitic leanings doesn't make them any less of a country.

But that international liberal support of Israel never is and never will be unconditional. When Israeli policy becomes being the new Nazis to Palestinians and Arabs, the goal liberal goal becomes not reversing support against Israel and instead becomes regime change in Israel.

What the hell does this mean? The "new Nazis"? Is this some kind of sick joke? Israel's neighbors sponsor several well-known terrorist groups who publicly state that their intention is to destroy Israel (Hamas and Hezbollah ring a bell?) I hardly think that going after these groups is tantamount to genocide against an entire race of people, or any other of the heinous acts that the Nazis committed. What a deplorable analogy.

There is nothing incompatible in Liberalism for the fair treatment of Israelis, Palestinians, and Arabs to create a win win win situation for everyone as an end goal we have totally lost sight of. In every sense, including 62 years of continuous failure and dis-improvement.

The problem is that there is no win-win-win situation. The reason for much of the Middle East's resentment toward Israel is that it exists today as a country, despite their repeated attempts to destroy it. Until Israel's neighbors grow up and recognize the legitimacy of the state of Israel, there will never be peace.

 

[flavio]

Gee, I wonder what the terrorist propaganda is going to tell us once Israel lets them go? It's a no brainer, sort of like Baghdad Bob. I really don't care what the enemy has to say.

Since they're not terrorists and not the enemy I'm definitely interested in hearing the other side. One sided Israeli propaganda not so much.

 

[Lemon law]

You don't really support Israels right to exist as the charter states was/is a Jewish state to shield them from thousands of years of oppression. Calling for things like right of return, family reunification, etc changes the fundamental nature of Israel to more Muslims than Jews, and it won't be long before they are second class citizens and/or expelled like they are throughout Arabia. Then it's Israel in name only but the name will even change so Israel will cease to exist.

Your nonsense about neo-nazis is just retarded. Israel is too compassionate, too weak to ever be compared to Nazis who wiped out whole towns and people. Not to mention a insensitive comparison. I wish they'd act a lot more martial, at least start with the death penalty for convicted terrorists but Isreali is too jaded and it brings back horrific memories of concentration camps.

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Zebo says I never supported the Israeli right to exist. Well sir, you could have fooled me.

But still let us examine the larger 4000+ year old history of the land of Israel. In all that time, what % of the time have Israelis been the dominate one's. Maybe 10% or the time, as control of the so called holy land has pinged ponged back and forth in what amounts to an endless succession of groups who wanted to pig all of Israel for only themselves. Regular as clockwork. they last at best for 120 years or so until some new groups gives them the ole heave ho, as a new set of idiots tries to pig the holy land again. And in so doing, it pisses everyone else in two major religions off, and in so doing they plant the seeds of their own destruction.

But does it ever occur to anyone, that past Israeli history is a big failure, and maybe for a damn change its time to fairly share the holy land of Israel.

 

[Jaskalas]

Since their not terrorists and not the enemy

Their attack on the soldiers proved otherwise. That's on video, that is beyond dispute.

 

[flavio]

What the hell does this mean? The "new Nazis"? Is this some kind of sick joke? Israel's neighbors sponsor several well-known terrorist groups who publicly state that their intention is to destroy Israel (Hamas and Hezbollah ring a bell?) I hardly think that going after these groups is tantamount to genocide against an entire race of people, or any other of the heinous acts that the Nazis committed. What a deplorable analogy.

I'm guessing he was talking about the atrocities and terrorism that Israel commits against Palestinians maybe.

The reason for much of the Middle East's resentment toward Israel is that it exists today as a country

Nah, has more to do with the fucked up things Israel does.

 

[flavio]

Their attack on the soldiers proved otherwise. That's on video, that is beyond dispute.

Defending yourself from armed intruders does not make you a terrorist. That is beyond dispute.

 

[Zebo]

You constantly post in support of "Palestinians" and are an apologist for them in mouthing generalities.

However, we all know that "Palestinians" are not a homogeneous grouping, in fact many live peacefully, side by side with the Israelis. then you have Hamas, Fatah and a few other choice representative groups. Do you personally belong to one of these factions?

As an apologist for "Palestinians," what is your personal description of Hamas? Please describe your understanding of their goals and justify their horrific methods of gaining and holding power over Palestinians?

The Israeli blockade does not prevent shipments of food, medical supplies, etc. It does stop the shipment of heavy weapons from suppliers like Iran to Hamas. This attempt at blockade breaking is not for any additional humanitarian supplies but to provide a high volume ship-borne supply route of heavy weapons from Iran, through Turkish arms dealing middle men, to Hamas.

As a consequence of your support of a breaking of the arms blockade you must also accept the arming of Hamas with weapons of increased lethality, much as Hizballah, another surrogate of Iran, has been armed. We know the consequences of a Hizballah armed with heavy weapons and various missle systems - they use them against both Lebanese and Israelis all the time. Is your support meant to encourage the opening of another front of attacks against Israel?

When Hamas killed hundreds, likely thousands, of Fatah (also Palestinians,) when they run Gaza by dictatorial fiat, kill and torture "liberals," including a concerted attempt at the genocide of homosexuals (how PC of them!) and the few remaining non-Muslims, do you see this as an expression of liberalism?

Should the arming of Hamas continue apace, do you believe they are going to be satisfied with Gaza or will they attack the West Bank to consolidate power? They haven't hesitated to kill Palestinians in their power grabs, have they?

And Israel, with a blockade against weapons in place, now the bad guys according to you, ever the bad guys, they wanted to stop the killing of Palestinians by Hamas Palestinians, didn't they? Wasn't that why the blockade against weapons was put into place? To stop Hamas genocide as best they could short of an invasion?

But you want them to have ever more powerful weapons so that they can be a second or third front against Israel when their Iranian masters tell them to. Isn't that so?

Oh yeah, the "Palestinians" that couldn't stand living in a Jewish state where they could prosper alongside the Jews, scattered of their own volition through the old Trans-Jordan, they never did much to build a country or a functional society in all these many years, did they? But you think they will do better than the Israelis did once they destroy the Israelis, don't you? Should any rational country accept this position when all the evidence is to the contrary?

I've asked a lot of questions that I would appreciate YOUR full answers to because I am pretty tired of your generalized attacks against the Israelis, that happen to have made a pretty damn good country out of the shithole that was in place before they made a go of it.

I happen to think they could make an even better country for all citizens, especially resident Palestinians, if the kill Israel crowd ignores them for a change and lets them get on with life, liberalism and democracy. Qualities in very short supply in that particular neighborhood.

Awesome questions PJ. I predict Israel are neo nazis, hamas are peacemakers.

 

[Tangerines]

I'm guessing he was talking about the atrocities and terrorism that Israel commits against Palestinians maybe.

Responses to rocket attacks and armed incursions into Israel does not come close to any of the atrocities committed by the Nazis. It was an inappropriate analogy.

Nah, has more to do with the fucked up things Israel does.

How well-thought out and specific!

 

[Zebo]

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Zebo says I never supported the Israeli right to exist. Well sir, you could have fooled me.

But still let us examine the larger 4000+ year old history of the land of Israel. In all that time, what % of the time have Israelis been the dominate one's. Maybe 10% or the time, as control of the so called holy land has pinged ponged back and forth in what amounts to an endless succession of groups who wanted to pig all of Israel for only themselves. Regular as clockwork. they last at best for 120 years or so until some new groups gives them the ole heave ho, as a new set of idiots tries to pig the holy land again. And in so doing, it pisses everyone else in two major religions off, and in so doing they plant the seeds of their own destruction.

But does it ever occur to anyone, that past Israeli history is a big failure, and maybe for a damn change its time to fairly share the holy land of Israel.

Would be nice but like you said 4000 years of inability - and this was upset further with advent of Islam basically a totalitarian exclusionary religion making a colony on Mars more likely in my lifetime than peaceful co-existence in the "holy land".

 

[theflyingpig]

I'm guessing he was talking about the atrocities and terrorism that Israel commits against Palestinians.



Nah, has more to do with the fucked up things Israel does.

Once again, flavio comes into a thread, shits his ignorance into his hands and wildly throws it at anyone within reach, just like an angry chimpanzee. Flavio, everything you have posted has been wrong on every level imaginable. Educate yourself.

 

[JEDIYoda]

An uninformed Israeli apologist. Oh look, chocolate, biscuits, fishing poles, jam, nuts, potato chips, paper, newspapers, and chickens.. among other things.

# wood for construction
# cement
# iron

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf

Flavio has no clue other than hes a Palestinian apologist who know little to nothing about this msubject.
jakalas was totally correct when he said -- "Their attack on the soldiers proved otherwise. That's on video, that is beyond dispute."

or PJABBER --
"The Israeli blockade does not prevent shipments of food, medical supplies, etc. It does stop the shipment of heavy weapons from suppliers like Iran to Hamas."


US Customs/Coast Guard often intercepts drug shipments in International Waters. So this is a common thing. If you dont like this, try sailing into Iranian Waters and see how long it takes for you to end up in a rat infested prison.

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea: International Institute of Humanitarian Law


Section II

98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.

Section IV

Neutral merchant vessels


67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;

last time I checked Turkey is NOT nuetral....

Finally -- After looking at these videos, it's clear that these "peace activists" were anything but that. They physically assault highly trained commandos who are lawfully enforcing a legitimate blockade, and then act surprised when some of them get killed?.......

Gotta Love peeps like pro-palestinian terrorist Flavio!!!

 

[PJABBER]

An uninformed Israeli apologist. Oh look, chocolate, biscuits, fishing poles, jam, nuts, potato chips, paper, newspapers, and chickens.. among other things.

# wood for construction
# cement
# iron

I am quite well informed, well enough to remember what Hamas did to earn a blockade from both neighbors, meaning Egypt and Israel. Perhaps you need to read more than the latest propaganda spin?

From Wiki -

The Gaza Strip has been blockaded by Israel and Egypt since June 2007, when Hamas took control of the Palestinian territory in the course of a conflict with rival Palestinian group Fatah. It immediately followed the 2006-2007 economic sanctions against the Palestinian National Authority following the election of Hamas to the Palestinian government.

The Gaza Strip has land borders with Israel and Egypt, and a sea border. Egypt and Israel largely keep their borders with the territory sealed. Israel allows only limited humanitarian supplies from aid organizations into the Strip. The amount of goods Israel allows into Gaza is one quarter of the pre-blockade flow.

The Israeli navy maintains a sea blockade from three nautical miles offshore. Egypt is constructing an underground steel barrier to prevent circumvention of the blockade through smuggling tunnels.

Israel maintains that the blockade is necessary to limit Palestinian rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip on its cities and to prevent Hamas from obtaining other weapons. Egypt maintains that it cannot open the Rafah crossing since opening the border would represent Egyptian recognition of the Hamas control of Gaza, undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority and consecrate the split between Gaza and the West Bank.

Hmmm? Is Egypt being criticized as strongly as Israel? Wonder why not?

The Egyptians have interdicted tons and tons of weapons and munitions that were meant to be smuggled into Gaza by means of tunnels. They have also gassed these tunnels that were built to bypass the blockade and blown them up (knock, knock! anyone home?) And killed scores of Palestinian, Al Queda and Iranian smugglers. And have built miles of steel fence that goes far enough underground to prevent the building of more tunnels meant to pass weapons to the ever so peaceful Hamas.

As you can read in the Wiki quote above, there is a strong concern by non-Hamas parties that Hamas is going to use the "wood for construction, cement and iron" to build fortifications from which to attack Israel and Egypt. As they have on multiple occasions. Naughty, naughty, Hamas!

Are you a member of Hamas yourself? Lots of apologists for them here! Why don't you tell everybody why nobody much likes them except the "destroy Israel yesterday" crowd?

Oh, let me help you as I have no patience for mealy mouth and inadequate responses tonight...

Hamas Backgrounder

And I invite you to also read the Related Materials links just to the right of that backgrounder. Get back to us when you actually know something about the shitbirds you waste your time defending.

 

[flavio]

Responses to rocket attacks and armed incursions into Israel does not come close to any of the atrocities committed by the Nazis. It was an inappropriate analogy.

Stuff like this is kinda similar:

"TO DEFEND Israel today is to be either callous or wilfully ignorant. Had Julie Burchill bothered during her visit there to cross the few miles from Israel to Gaza or the West Bank, she would have seen such human suffering as to disturb even her frenetic adulation of Israel. She might have seen the daily lot of nearly three million Palestinians as they battle with army checkpoints, curfews, random shootings, arbitrary arrests and air raids. She might have found that the “superJews” she so admires humiliate and oppress Palestinians at a whim: last year, at the Nablus checkpoint, a middle-aged man was made to strip, get down on all fours and bark like a dog before he could enter his city. Women in labour routinely wait at checkpoints until some give birth there and see their babies die.
Those that survive live a blighted childhood. Since September 2000, Israel has killed more than 660 Palestinian children and wounded 9,000 — such as little Iman, sprayed with bullets when walking to school in Rafah last month, even after she died. Thousands of children are traumatised by the daily horrors they witness. For a Palestinian child, life under Israeli occupation means turning 15 and seeing the army come to arrest you if you are male, or seeing your friends bleed to death because no ambulance is allowed to rescue them.

It is difficult to convey the scale and effect of Israel’s abuses of Palestinian lives through statistics alone. But these are horrifying enough: since 2000, nearly 4,000 Palestinians killed, and 30,000 injured; 400 were assas-sinated; and 25,000 homes were demolished. In addition, hundreds of acres of farmland were destroyed. No state on earth, except Israel, could get away with these atrocities, now routinely justified as “defence” against Palestinian “ terrorism”."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article394547.ece

Or this:

"It's the most explosive story in Israel since the 1982 Sabra-Shatila massacre, when Israeli troops supervised the three-day killing spree, by Lebanese Christian militiamen, of anywhere from 1,300 to 3,000 Palestinian civilians in adjoining Palestinian refugee camps on Beirut's southern rim.

This time it's the 22-day Gaza war last January, where almost 1,500 Palestinians, overwhelmingly civilians, were killed. This time Israeli soldiers are directly implicated. More to the point: they're implicating themselves.

Here's what one Israeli squad commander said of the murder of an unarmed Palestinian woman (because that, even in war, is what the killing of an unarmed civilian is): “What’s great about Gaza — you see a person on a path, he doesn’t have to be armed, you can simply shoot him. In our case it was an old woman on whom I did not see any weapon when I looked. The order was to take down the person, this woman, the minute you see her. There are always warnings, there is always the saying, ‘Maybe he’s a terrorist.’ What I felt was, there was a lot of thirst for blood.”

http://middleeast.about.com/b/2009/03/19/waltz-with-hamas-israeli-atrocities-in-gaza.htm

or this:

"During Operation Cast Lead, Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed their property, say soldiers who fought in the offensive.

The soldiers are graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military preparatory course at Oranim Academic College in Tivon. Some of their statements made on Feb. 13 will appear Thursday and Friday in Haaretz. Dozens of graduates of the course who took part in the discussion fought in the Gaza operation.

The speakers included combat pilots and infantry soldiers. Their testimony runs counter to the Israel Defense Forces’ claims that Israeli troops observed a high level of moral behavior during the operation. The session’s transcript was published this week in the newsletter for the course’s graduates.

..snip..

The squad leader said he argued with his commander over the permissive rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning the residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, the squad leader’s soldiers complained that “we should kill everyone there [in the center of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist.”

The squad leader said: “You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won’t say anything. To write ‘death to the Arabs’ on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It’s what I’ll remember the most.”


http://enduringamerica.com/2009/03/...raeli-militarys-killing-of-civilians-in-gaza/

 

[flavio]

Once again, flavio comes into a thread, shits his ignorance into his hands and wildly throws it at anyone within reach, just like an angry chimpanzee. Flavio, everything you have posted has been wrong on every level imaginable. Educate yourself.

How enlightening your post is!

Here's a thought, if you think I am wrong about something tell us what it is and provide proof to the contrary. That's what educated people do.

 

[Zebo]

PJ
Jordan killed tens of thousands of Pals not a peep
Assad killed 80,000 fundis not peep

Why would they criticize Egypt's participation in Blockade? They are not Jews.

How this unequal condemnation is not being antisemitic I dont know.

 

[theflyingpig]

How enlightening your post is!

Here's a thought, if you think I am wrong about something tell us what it is and provide proof to the contrary. That's what educated people do.

No, here's a thought: Educate yourself. The fact that you post the garbage that you do is proof that you don't know anything about Israel and Palestine. Everyone knows this.

 

[flavio]

Flavio has no clue other than hes a Palestinian apologist who know little to nothing about this msubject.

JEDIYokel is a Israeli apologist who knows nothing about thismsubject.

jakalas was totally correct when he said -- "Their attack on the soldiers proved otherwise. That's on video, that is beyond dispute."

Actually he was wrong. Defending yourself from armed intruders does not make you a terrorist. That is beyond dispute.

or PJABBER --
"The Israeli blockade does not prevent shipments of food, medical supplies, etc. It does stop the shipment of heavy weapons from suppliers like Iran to Hamas."

He was wrong too. A lot of food on that list.

As you can read in the Wiki quote above, there is a strong concern by non-Hamas parties that Hamas is going to use the "wood for construction, cement and iron" to build fortifications from which to attack Israel and Egypt. As they have on multiple occasions. Naughty, naughty, Hamas!

Oh yeah, that's why! LOL. Maybe they throw chickens and potato chips from these forts.

They don't want Palestinians to be able to build or make repair. Only those illegal Israeli settlements are allowed.

Are you a member of Hamas yourself? Lots of apologists for them here!

I don't give a shit about Hamas.

 

[flavio]

No, here's a thought: Educate yourself. The fact that you post the garbage that you do is proof that you don't know anything about Israel and Palestine. Everyone knows this.

No here's a thought, how about you educate yourself. The fact that you have posted nothing useful here and cannot back up your claim of "garbage" in any way show's that you don't know shit about shit.

I'll say it again, if you think I am wrong about something be specific and provide proof to the contrary. otherwise you look like a fool with nothing to say.

Put up or shut up.

 

[Lemon law]

In 1776 American colonialist wrongfully rebelled against our legitimate British overlords.

Look at the mess we are in now, that should teach everyone the futility of thinking about any delusions of having any human rights.

 

[theflyingpig]

In 1776 American colonialist wrongfully rebelled against our legitimate British overlords.

Look at the mess we are in now, that should teach everyone the futility of thinking about any delusions of having any human rights.

Pathetic. 🙄

 

[Jaskalas]

In 1776 American colonialist wrongfully rebelled against our legitimate British overlords.

Look at the mess we are in now, that should teach everyone the futility of thinking about any delusions of having any human rights.

So you'd support the south rising again?

 

[Jaskalas]

Defending yourself from armed intruders does not make you a terrorist. That is beyond dispute.

So its within your rights to attack and murder the next officer who pulls you over for a traffic stop? After all, you're defining such action as "defending yourself".

 

[yllus]

If you get shot up as you're attempting to run a naval blockade and a bunch of other people on your boat have attacked soldiers with blunt instruments and possibly firearms, I ain't gonna shed any tears for you.