Israel / West Bank Thread

[EagleKeeper]

This thread is a consolidation of threads related to that situation.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Would two people with opposing viewpoints be up for teaming together to write a brief fact-based bullet point history with links to non-partisan maps for each of the consolidated threads? I know there are a lot of disputes about cause, justification, fault, etc. but there must be at least some high level history that is clear fact.

Mods, would you consider reviewing the submitted histories for each consolidated thread and, if you consider them sufficiently non-partisan, would you add those histories to the OP of each thread?

That would really help out a Middle East no0b like me.

 

[kylebisme]

First off, I have to contest the premise of this thread. While 'death to Palestine' zealots would obviously like to pretend the West Bank and Gaza have nothing to do with each other, they are two parts of the same Palestinian homeland, and hence both part of the same conflict. Exploiting the fact that Israel has divided them while continuing to colonize the West Bank to pigeon hole the discussion, is yet another flagrant attempt to deny Palestinians right to sovereignty in what little they have left of their homeland.

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Would two people with opposing viewpoints be up for teaming together to write a brief fact-based bullet point history with links to non-partisan maps for each of the consolidated threads?

Thing is, we've got a hardcore 'death to Palestine' contingent here and no extremists for the other side, so you aren't going to get a balanced perspective out of that. For a more balanced recount of the confict, check Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...i-Palestinian_conflict

Granted, Wiki can be edited by whomever, but widely disputed issues like this one receive strict moderation, so they well source and generally stay fairly balanced.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
First off, I have to contest the premise of this thread. While 'death to Palestine' zealots would obviously like to pretend the West Bank and Gaza have nothing to do with each other, they are two parts of the same Palestinian homeland, and hence both part of the same conflict. Exploiting the fact that Israel has divided them while continuing to colonize the West Bank to pigeon hole the discussion, is yet another flagrant attempt to deny Palestinians right to sovereignty in what little they have left of their homeland.

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Would two people with opposing viewpoints be up for teaming together to write a brief fact-based bullet point history with links to non-partisan maps for each of the consolidated threads?

Thing is, we've got a hardcore 'death to Palestine' contingent here and no extremists for the other side, so you aren't going to get a balanced perspective out of that. For a more balanced recount of the complicit, check Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...i-Palestinian_conflict

Granted, Wiki can be edited by whomever, but widely disputed issues like this one receive strict moderation, so they well source and generally stay fairly balanced.

You either get one thread and your concepts can be lost in to to the traffic or the four threads that the areas are broken up into.

"big fish/small pond or small fish / big pond"

Having 10+ htread all related to an issue, but with different focal points was creating to much clutter

 

[Lemon law]

I can somewhat see the Anand tech Moderator reasoning Stated by Common Courtesy, namely " You either get one thread and your concepts can be lost in to to the traffic or the four threads that the areas are broken up into.

"big fish/small pond or small fish / big pond"

Having 10+ htread all related to an issue, but with different focal points was creating to much clutter"

The somewhat problem with that reasoning is in assuming the overall Israeli, Arab, and Palestinian struggle can be broken up into separate components without losing focus, somewhat calling each individual tree the forest, when in fact a forest is a collection of trees.

But to agree with Common Courtesy and restrict remarks mostly only to the West Bank, what we have brand new in the last five or so years in the overall 60 year conflict since the formation of Israel in 1948, is the splitting of the Palestinian people into two camps, one ruled by the more moderate Fatah party in the West bank with Hamas basically excluded, and the other ruled by the more radical Hamas party, with Fatah basically excluded in Gaza. So we have a living experiment, we might then hope that Israel would respond better to Fatah, and this better treatment would lead to formation of a viable Palestinian State that could bring some hope for a better future to Palestinians living in the West Bank. And with only 12 more days left of a Annapolis peace conference brokered by Condi Rice, the only tangible result I can see for the West Bank is continued Israeli expansion and settlement, making it not a big or little fish in whatever sized pond, but an inevitably shrinking pond that will dry up. And with Abbas basically the de facto leader of Fatah, and Abbas already at an advanced age, I have to think that the West Bank strategy has failed to make any gains for Palestinians there. On a possible bright side, Obama may choose try to revive the Annapolis talks, but if a halt and a reversal of Israeli settlement fails to occur on the West bank, and no progress for a viable West Bank based Palestinian State soon materializes, its difficult, IMHO,
for the Fatah party to even hope to survive in the West Bank. And as a nothing else best case scenario, West bank residents will peacefully choose to support other less moderate parties in future general elections.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Thing is, we've got a hardcore 'death to Palestine' contingent here and no extremists for the other side, so you aren't going to get a balanced perspective out of that.

When I signed off last night there were a substantial number of votes for people who would only consider the conflict ended when all Israelis were kicked out of the Middle East, so it sounds like we've got at least a few extremists from the opposite side.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Would two people with opposing viewpoints be up for teaming together to write a brief fact-based bullet point history with links to non-partisan maps for each of the consolidated threads? I know there are a lot of disputes about cause, justification, fault, etc. but there must be at least some high level history that is clear fact.

Mods, would you consider reviewing the submitted histories for each consolidated thread and, if you consider them sufficiently non-partisan, would you add those histories to the OP of each thread?

That would really help out a Middle East no0b like me.

I feel for people on both sides of the situation, but I stumbled across this today:

-
Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant states the following: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Cedar tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem).
-

Here (Wikipedia)

I know it's Wikipedia, but what could Israel possibly do when *that* gets elected in Gaza?

 

[babylon5]

Some common mistakes by Israelis, Hamas and the Bush administration

by Rosa Brooks


How to be stupid . . .
. . . Hamas style

Refuse to recognize Israel. Remind the world that the establishment of Israel in 1948 was accompanied by the often violent displacement of 700,000 Palestinians, but ignore the fact that more than 60 years have gone by, making it a bit late for a do-over. Ignore the fact that most Israelis weren't even born in 1948, and that Israel is recognized as legitimate by an overwhelming majority of the world's states. Keep insisting on its destruction.

Use suicide bombings and rocket attacks on civilian targets as a method of warfare. Don't stick to military targets. Instead, blow up civilians on buses and in cafes. Adopting a deliberate policy of war crimes and crimes against humanity helps ensure that few of the world's governments will want to go anywhere near you.

Get into vicious factional battles with fellow Palestinians. Why present a united front when you can fight with each other? Constant infighting gives the Israelis yet another reason to consider you a worthless interlocutor. And by driving rival party Fatah out of town, you can drive a wedge between Palestinians and give many Arab governments another reason to hope you fail.

Keep that cycle of violence going! The Israelis killed a Palestinian? Quick, fire a barrage of rockets toward Israel. You know they'll respond with even greater force. Be stubborn and keep up those rocket attacks! Israeli bombs can't tell the difference between your fighters and Gaza's schoolchildren. Let the civilians pay the price for your "brave" resistance.


. . . Israel style

Never pass up a chance to rub salt in open wounds. Keep on building settlements in occupied territory. Stuff like that. Ya know?

Undermine and isolate potential interlocutors who might be able to represent the Palestinians. First, destroy Palestinian Authority infrastructure and withhold funds and supplies needed for critical social services, thus helping to push ordinary Palestinians into the arms of Hamas, with its ample social services programs funded by Iran and private Arab donors. Then, when Hamas wins Palestinian elections, isolate Gaza and undermine Hamas.

Be trigger happy. A recent statistical analysis by three academics (one at MIT, one at Harvard and one from Tel Aviv University) found that an overwhelming majority of lulls in violence since 2000 (when the second intifada began) ended when Israelis killed Palestinians, sparking renewed tit-for-tat violence. According to Nancy Kanwisher, Johannes Haushofer and Anat Biletzki, "79% of all conflict pauses were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8% were interrupted by Palestinian attacks." The pattern was "more pronounced for longer conflict pauses. ... Of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%." Always give war a chance!

Carry out intense aerial attacks on densely populated civilian areas. Civilians in the Gaza Strip are fenced in -- the sea on the west and heavily guarded borders on the land perimeter. As Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian surgeon working at a Gaza hospital, put it, the aerial bombardment of Gaza is like "bombing 1 1/2 million people in a cage."

Heavy civilian casualties are inevitable -- like those from the Israeli strikes on Tuesday that damaged three United Nations schools, killing at least 48.

Complain about unfair media coverage, but don't let any Israeli or foreign journalists into Gaza (in defiance of the Israeli Supreme Court, which has ordered that a limited number of journalists must be allowed in). That way, nearly all news coming out of Gaza will come from Palestinian journalists.

Don't have a plan. Start bombing Gaza to eliminate the Hamas capacity to fire rockets and mortars at Israel. Realize, as the Palestinian death toll approaches 700, that Hamas rocket attacks on Israel are still ongoing, there's no obvious military solution short of leveling Gaza, international dismay is rising, and you don't really have a game plan. Continue to play it by ear -- it's just a war.


. . . Bush style

Avoid opportunities to push for a rapid end to the conflict. Wring your hands every now and then, but don't engage seriously with European, Turkish or Arab actors anxious to propose compromises that could end the conflict. Block a U.N. Security Council resolution calling for a temporary cease-fire on the grounds that it doesn't offer a durable solution.

In general, sit back and relax. It's just the Middle East exploding again. It's just a harbinger of ongoing suffering, regional instability and global terrorism. No big deal. Let the new guy handle it.


. . . Palestinian civilian style

Be born in Gaza. Well, that was dumb of you, wasn't it? Next time, try to be born in London or San Francisco.

Article

 

[compguy786]

this is outrage. Israelis are killing innocent CIVILLIANS on PURPOSE....WHY !/

there is proof that they are , a video is out that show a medic trying to help someone, instead, israeli snipers fired on him. What did he do ?
he isn't hamas, he is a medic, someone who helps people that are hurt. The whole UN school thing, there were NO hamas people there either, israelis
need to think back to what happend to them in world war II, they are doing the same things today, with advanced weaponry. There is no point.
Sure they fired rockets from gaza, but it is because of the rage they have against people who TOOK OVER their homeland. Example, If hispanics
took over the United states, and left Rhode island to be the only "USA", How would you guys feel ?

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: compguy786
this is outrage. Israelis are killing innocent CIVILLIANS on PURPOSE....WHY !/

Hamas hides themselves in innocent CIVILIANS on PURPOSE and make themselves appear to be innocent CIVILIANS on PURPOSE.... WHY?! To ensure that they have a better chance of survival and that the civilians' chance of survival goes down and that the world has more sympathy for them and blames Israel for more and more of the occurrences.

The deaths and the blame are split equally here. Maybe not in the long run, I don't know enough of the history, but in these last weeks this is the fault and cause of both sides.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: compguy786
this is outrage. Israelis are killing innocent CIVILLIANS on PURPOSE....WHY !/

there is proof that they are , a video is out that show a medic trying to help someone, instead, israeli snipers fired on him. What did he do ?
he isn't hamas, he is a medic, someone who helps people that are hurt. The whole UN school thing, there were NO hamas people there either, israelis
need to think back to what happend to them in world war II, they are doing the same things today, with advanced weaponry. There is no point.
Sure they fired rockets from gaza, but it is because of the rage they have against people who TOOK OVER their homeland. Example, If hispanics
took over the United states, and left Rhode island to be the only "USA", How would you guys feel ?

Ask us again in 30 years.

If the Israeli government wanted to target innocent civilians, they'd have killed a hell of a lot more of them by now than they have.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: compguy786
this is outrage. Israelis are killing innocent CIVILLIANS on PURPOSE....WHY !/

there is proof that they are , a video is out that show a medic trying to help someone, instead, israeli snipers fired on him. What did he do ?
he isn't hamas, he is a medic, someone who helps people that are hurt. The whole UN school thing, there were NO hamas people there either, israelis
need to think back to what happend to them in world war II, they are doing the same things today, with advanced weaponry. There is no point.
Sure they fired rockets from gaza, but it is because of the rage they have against people who TOOK OVER their homeland. Example, If hispanics
took over the United states, and left Rhode island to be the only "USA", How would you guys feel ?

I'm not sure if the Israeli military in Gaza is doing the same things as what was done to the Jews in WW2. It seems that the Israeli military is largely trying not to kill civilians on purpose, but civilian casualties are inevitable as collateral damage when using force, especially when the other military force violates the laws of war that were intended to minimize civilian casualties.

However, Israel is pretty disgusting in its other policies in regards to the Palestinians.

Also, most Hispanics in the US are American. Your last statement is pretty xenophobic.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: compguy786
this is outrage. Israelis are killing innocent CIVILLIANS on PURPOSE....WHY !/

there is proof that they are , a video is out that show a medic trying to help someone, instead, israeli snipers fired on him. What did he do ?
he isn't hamas, he is a medic, someone who helps people that are hurt. The whole UN school thing, there were NO hamas people there either, israelis
need to think back to what happend to them in world war II, they are doing the same things today, with advanced weaponry. There is no point.
Sure they fired rockets from gaza, but it is because of the rage they have against people who TOOK OVER their homeland. Example, If hispanics
took over the United states, and left Rhode island to be the only "USA", How would you guys feel ?

Let mom and dad back on the computer........


As mentioned below, "Hispanics" is not a nationality, so I dont see your point.

 

[babylon5]

Bad analogy.

 

[BrownTown]

Whats happening in the West Bank, I though this was all confined to the Gaza strip so far?!!?

 

[ericlp]

Good about time... We needed a thread like this!

 

[compguy786]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: compguy786
this is outrage. Israelis are killing innocent CIVILLIANS on PURPOSE....WHY !/

Hamas hides themselves in innocent CIVILIANS on PURPOSE and make themselves appear to be innocent CIVILIANS on PURPOSE.... WHY?! To ensure that they have a better chance of survival and that the civilians' chance of survival goes down and that the world has more sympathy for them and blames Israel for more and more of the occurrences.

The deaths and the blame are split equally here. Maybe not in the long run, I don't know enough of the history, but in these last weeks this is the fault and cause of both sides.

That is what CNN is telling you, And also the IDF. You need to watch or go on websites like al-jazeera, which are uninfluenced media. What i meant with hispanics are mexicans, i did not want to sound rude, But if that happend, it would definately not make you happy right ?


And about israelis targeting civilians...shooting at a medic with sniper fire 12 times ? luckily he survived, But what is your opinion on that ? the medic is a terrorist ?

Israelis attacked a UN convoy that was going to Gaza, Which killed a UN driver, What do you say about that ?

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: compguy786

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: compguy786
this is outrage. Israelis are killing innocent CIVILLIANS on PURPOSE....WHY !/

Hamas hides themselves in innocent CIVILIANS on PURPOSE and make themselves appear to be innocent CIVILIANS on PURPOSE.... WHY?! To ensure that they have a better chance of survival and that the civilians' chance of survival goes down and that the world has more sympathy for them and blames Israel for more and more of the occurrences.

The deaths and the blame are split equally here. Maybe not in the long run, I don't know enough of the history, but in these last weeks this is the fault and cause of both sides.

That is what CNN is telling you, And also the IDF. You need to watch or go on websites like al-jazeera, which are uninfluenced media. What i meant with hispanics are mexicans, i did not want to sound rude, But if that happend, it would definately not make you happy right ?

You are either trolling, have family in palistine so are blind, or ride a bus with seatbelts.

 

[compguy786]

how am i trolling ? by actually pointing out something that portrays the truth ?

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: compguy786
how am i trolling ? by actually pointing out something that portrays the truth ?

Because Al Jazeera is one of the most unbalanced sites you can find. Anyways, I for one don't really care what the news is. The Palestinians have it coming and I hope Israel keeps on giving it.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Thing is, we've got a hardcore 'death to Palestine' contingent here and no extremists for the other side, so you aren't going to get a balanced perspective out of that.

When I signed off last night there were a substantial number of votes for people who would only consider the conflict ended when all Israelis were kicked out of the Middle East, so it sounds like we've got at least a few extremists from the opposite side.

Huh, last I saw the results there were only a couple, and I figure at least the majority of those were 'death to Palestine' extremists inflating the results. Shame we can't see the results now since the thread was apparently merged along with so many others, burring a lot of conversation, all by our 'death to Palestine' moderator here.

 

[compguy786]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: compguy786
how am i trolling ? by actually pointing out something that portrays the truth ?

Because Al Jazeera is one of the most unbalanced sites you can find. Anyways, I for one don't really care what the news is. The Palestinians have it coming and I hope Israel keeps on giving it.

then i hope the palestinians give it back to them...so far for a minute force
theyve done a pretty good job.

or stick the enemy in the oven...there ya go

 

[Cdubneeddeal]

Compguy786: I'm not an expert on The Middle East but what I do know about Al Jazeera they seem to be more of a propaganda type outfit.

Now, the Palestinians want an open border to Israel. My thinking is why would Israel allow that? So more Hamas can suicide bomb their people?

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: compguy786

or stick the enemy in the oven...there ya go

Jesus christ. Now you are either trolling or are extremely dumb.

I have a feeling your days are numbered with comments like that.

 

[SickBeast]

I just want to vent a little and say that I hate Hamas.

The Jews and Palestinians are not the problem. Hamas is. I'm certain that most of the Palestinians oppose Hamas, just as many Jews oppose what the Israeli government is doing.