Israel: We Are At War

[pcgeek11]

I think that they should flood the tunnels to make them unusable.

https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/10/22/floods-and-bombs-this-is-how-egypt-handled-hamas-smuggling-tunnels/

I also read that they have Sponge Bombs to seal off the tunnels.

Israel may use new ‘Sponge Bombs’ to seal and block off Hamas tunnels

The sponge bombs consist of chemical compounds based around a liquid emulsion that can be thrown into a tunnel where it swiftly expands and hardens.

nypost.com

 

[Leeea]

I think that they should flood the tunnels to make them unusable.

https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/10...is-how-egypt-handled-hamas-smuggling-tunnels/

I also read that they have Sponge Bombs to seal off the tunnels.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/28/news/israel-may-deploy-sponge-bombs-to-seal-block-off-hamas-tunnels/

If you watched the interview from the hostage that was released, her and a group of other hostages were being held safely deep underground in a bunker located in the tunnel network. I think flooding, tear gas, etc are unlikely to occur.

I could see various entrances / exits being sealed off, but not sure why they would use a sponge bomb.

I think any old bomb could seal off an entrance. 500 lb of high explosive could rearrange the earth at a tunnel entrance more then enough to seal it.



There is a certain irony that the hostages are being held safe from the airstrikes while the civilians above have no such shelter.

 

[pcgeek11]

If you watched the interview from the hostage that was released, her and a group of other hostages were being held safely deep underground in a bunker located in the tunnel network. I think flooding, tear gas, etc are unlikely to occur.

I could see various entrances / exits being sealed off, but not sure why they would use a sponge bomb.

I think any old bomb could seal off an entrance. 500 lb of high explosive could rearrange the earth at a tunnel entrance more then enough to seal it.



There is a certain irony that the hostages are being held safe from the airstrikes while the civilians above have no such shelter.

You do realize that the odds of getting hostages out are tiny at best. I'm not for just flooding with no regard to the hostages, but they could selectively flood tunnels to reduce Hamas options.

Hamas is protecting the Only Ace they have in the hole. If they didn't need them to deal with Israel they would have killed them long ago.

A sponge bomb seals the tunnel without an explosion.

 

[mikeymikec]

When did "you cannot blow up goodies to get baddies" suddenly become a rule of war? The US killed at least 100,000 civilian Germans, and closer to 1,000,000 civilian Japanese in WWII bombings. 100's of 1000's in Vietnam. Hundreds of thousands between Iraq and Afghanistan. And as a reminder, none of those countries except AQ in Afghanistan ever murdered civilians in the US.

What Israel is doing right now in Gaza is what any democracy would do in the same circumstance. If you think the US or any other nation would respond to this attack differently, for any reason other than they didn't have the military capability to do so, then you're just not that aware of history. Your own country would handle this in roughly the same way. If Mexican cartels did something similar in the US, we'd be bombing every known cartel operating site in Mexico, regardless of proximity to civilians.

No, Israel cannot be judged on a double standard, with one rule applying to them and another, to everyone else in the world. It's rank hypocrisy. Israel is not just going to stand there and do nothing about an attack like this. Because that is the only alternative to attacks which inevitably kill civilians: doing nothing. Hamas thought this through. They knew that any Israeli response would endanger civilians and the hostages they kidnapped, and that Israel would be condemned for it by westerners who urge one standard of conduct for Israel and another for everyone else. They are succeeding.

I completely agree with the general premise of your first paragraph; for example there are plenty of scenarios that aren't generally considered war crimes such as the US dropping two atomic bombs in Japan.

Your second two paragraphs are completely off the fucking chain though IMO, you're treating the Israel - Palestine conflict as if they were two happy countries and then one day a fuckwit in Hamas thinks for no apparent reason, "you know what we ought to do today? Attack our neighbour".

The Israel - Palestine conflict is happening largely because of Zionism: Israel thinks it's right that they should be able to steal other peoples' land and then it's the other person's fault for taking offence at that. Someone was going to take offence, and the consequences were never going to be pretty. The only conflict that I can think of that's anything like it is the UK - Ireland conflict, but it would require the UK to be continuing to bulldoze Ireland to this day "because we're entitled to it". Then if a car bomb goes off in Northern Ireland, the UK that's taking the Israeli crazy-pills would say, "you know what this situation needs? a good carpet-bombing of a nearby city!". The press taking the same crazy-pills would then criticize the IRA and tell them to "stop resisting".

While I seriously doubt that the creation of the Israeli state was ever going to sit well with their neighbours no matter how nice Israel were about it, the way that Israel is going about it displays an insane level of delusion which exacerbates the situation to the point that the extremists of their neighbours will no doubt have the loudest voice in how to deal with Israel.

I'll apologise in advance if my tone is too antagonistic; I have a headache but also to be fair I think anyone (this isn't aimed at you specifically) who talks about bombing hospitals "because any good guys in there are now all bad guys" and other such genocidal apologist bullshit really needs to be told to go fuck themselves. This thread is getting very fucking twisted.

 

[MrSquished]

I completely agree with the general premise of your first paragraph; for example there are plenty of scenarios that aren't generally considered war crimes such as the US dropping two atomic bombs in Japan.

Your second two paragraphs are completely off the fucking chain though IMO, you're treating the Israel - Palestine conflict as if they were two happy countries and then one day a fuckwit in Hamas thinks for no apparent reason, "you know what we ought to do today? Attack our neighbour".

The Israel - Palestine conflict is happening largely because of Zionism: Israel thinks it's right that they should be able to steal other peoples' land and then it's the other person's fault for taking offence at that. Someone was going to take offence, and the consequences were never going to be pretty. The only conflict that I can think of that's anything like it is the UK - Ireland conflict, but it would require the UK to be continuing to bulldoze Ireland to this day "because we're entitled to it". Then if a car bomb goes off in Northern Ireland, the UK that's taking the Israeli crazy-pills would say, "you know what this situation needs? a good carpet-bombing of a nearby city!". The press taking the same crazy-pills would then criticize the IRA and tell them to "stop resisting".

While I seriously doubt that the creation of the Israeli state was ever going to sit well with their neighbours no matter how nice Israel were about it, the way that Israel is going about it displays an insane level of delusion which exacerbates the situation to the point that the extremists of their neighbours will no doubt have the loudest voice in how to deal with Israel.

I'll apologise in advance if my tone is too antagonistic; I have a headache but also to be fair I think anyone (this isn't aimed at you specifically) who talks about bombing hospitals "because any good guys in there are now all bad guys" and other such genocidal apologist bullshit really needs to be told to go fuck themselves. This thread is getting very fucking twisted.

It is indeed disturbing how the pro-zionists are so easily justifying mass genocide based on the leadership of a far-right criminal and a far-right wing governments propaganda, and a government that has a history of terrorism, lying, oppressing, killing civilians, and anything you can imagine. I mean they are simply defending genocide of what was an already apartheid state. It's disgusting.

And they get pouty with me because I call the pro-Zionists what they are in this thread. Imagine the pro-genocidal maniacs get all upset if you call them out. Pro-genocidal maniacs, though, usually have very little self-awareness, as you have noticed in this thread.

 

[Perknose]

While I seriously doubt that the creation of the Israeli state was ever going to sit well with their neighbours no matter how nice Israel were about it, the way that Israel is going about it displays an insane level of delusion which exacerbates the situation to the point that the extremists of their neighbours will no doubt have the loudest voice in how to deal with Israel.

While it's a tragic and nearly insoluble situation that doesn't really admit of any one sentence summation, I happen to agree with the above.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

How do you fight a group that's using human shields? I agree with the idea that you can't slaughter noncombatants, but doesn't that equate to not being able to retaliate? Israel ends up in the position of either packing up and going home, or accepting civilian casualties. I sure as hell could never make that call.

Room by room, probably with a lot of casualties. Less civilian casualties than you do by knocking on the door with a bigass bomb though.

 

[MrSquished]

Room by room, probably with a lot of casualties. Less civilian casualties than you do by knocking on the door with a bigass bomb though.

Israel could have done and do many other things besides those two binary choices Greenman presents here. They could not be beholden to far right genocidal one state solution lunatics in their government and actually say we are going to disband this apartheid state we have created and seek out a two state solution.

 

[brycejones]

If you watched the interview from the hostage that was released, her and a group of other hostages were being held safely deep underground in a bunker located in the tunnel network. I think flooding, tear gas, etc are unlikely to occur.
I could see various entrances / exits being sealed off, but not sure why they would use a sponge bomb.

I think any old bomb could seal off an entrance. 500 lb of high explosive could rearrange the earth at a tunnel entrance more then enough to seal it.



There is a certain irony that the hostages are being held safe from the airstrikes while the civilians above have no such shelter.

@imported_tajmahal Sounds like your special skills with hand grenades, tunnels, and civilians are urgently needed.

 

[Ajay]

Aren't you that pro-life guy? Sure are selective about what life you are pro about. LIke most pro-lifers, a complete hypocrite.

I'll bite on your whataboutism. How am I supposed to be pro-life in this situation?

We have two belligerents with little regard for human life going to war. I've been in favor of a two state solution for decades - Israel has flaunted international law for decades and the Palestinian authorities have rejected any supposedly legitimate offers by Israel to create a Palestinian state.

The Middle East has been at war with itself forever. The subjugation of people living in the Israeli/Palestine land region has been nearly constant for the past 3000+ years. It’s some sort of sick meme.

 

[pmv]

While it's a tragic and nearly insoluble situation that doesn't really admit of any one sentence summation, I happen to agree with the above.

I think it's a horrific situation that manages to both be exceedingly complex and morally-nuanced and yet also have horrendously serious consequences. Which is a nightmare combination, as the first part means it's next-to-impossible to have an informed opinion and yet the latter part means it's almost compulsory to do so. Worse still, if one is a citizen of the US, UK or France, one is born with a certain level of responsibility for the whole sorry mess due to the past actions of one's country in massively meddling in the region, so even fence-sitting (which is what I tend towards) is hard to justify.

The trouble is every time I feel an opinion coming on I hear or read something that makes me doubt again.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

When did "you cannot blow up goodies to get baddies" suddenly become a rule of war? The US killed at least 100,000 civilian Germans, and closer to 1,000,000 civilian Japanese in WWII bombings. 100's of 1000's in Vietnam. Hundreds of thousands between Iraq and Afghanistan. And as a reminder, none of those countries except AQ in Afghanistan ever murdered civilians in the US.

If civvie deaths are just part and parcel with winning, why not just drop the hammer? Nuke the whole thing, eliminate the majority of familial reprisals (cuz you killed them all).

 

[pmv]

I completely agree with the general premise of your first paragraph; for example there are plenty of scenarios that aren't generally considered war crimes such as the US dropping two atomic bombs in Japan.

Generally it seems its only a war-crime if your bombs aren't big enough to end a conflict.

 

[pmv]

The Israel - Palestine conflict is happening largely because of Zionism: Israel thinks it's right that they should be able to steal other peoples' land and then it's the other person's fault for taking offence at that. Someone was going to take offence, and the consequences were never going to be pretty. The only conflict that I can think of that's anything like it is the UK - Ireland conflict, but it would require the UK to be continuing to bulldoze Ireland to this day "because we're entitled to it". Then if a car bomb goes off in Northern Ireland, the UK that's taking the Israeli crazy-pills would say, "you know what this situation needs? a good carpet-bombing of a nearby city!". The press taking the same crazy-pills would then criticize the IRA and tell them to "stop resisting".

The thing is, it's highly-debatable whether it's "other peoples' land". I don't see how one can come to a definite conclusion either way on that, given the long history of the region. It's a head-on clash of two claims to 'self determination', just that both feel equally entitled to determine their own fate on the same area of land, and both feel a sense of victimhood (with justification).

I agree that the Northern Irish conflict is one of the few that come close in near-insolubility - only there at least the two sides are marginally closer in terms of culture, and for a while it seemed as if all being "European" together (while slowly being subjected to the same American cultural imperialism that is inflicted on everyone else) was a possible way of resolving the issue.

Damn, I was really trying to stay out of this entirely, because I have no useful ideas to add. Far smarter and more politically-powerful people than me have tried to solve this and failed (and some have ended up dead for their troubles).

 

[Ajay]

while slowly being subjected to the same American cultural imperialism that is inflicted on everyone else

Thanks for the sucker punch, btw.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Thanks for the sucker punch, btw.

Well deserved, we're due a few licks I think.

 

[VRAMdemon]

would you like some kleenex?

I actually got quite a few likes in this threads from good posters. Honestly I don't care if a few douchebags are gonna cry about my posts. Seriously. Get a life.

The only "kleenex" needed in this thread is to clean up all the big steamy stinky ass dumps you drop in these threads. And ooohhh!! , i got some "likes" atta boy!... Like people really gives a shit about "likes"... lol... Other than an attention whore troll. The only person "whining" here is you being called out on your call outs and broad generalization's "snarl" words that you label on people in this thread that you won't name. AGAIN! ...Who are all these people in this thread who have "dehumanized the Palestinians" and are "all pro in just giving it to Gaza"??

 

[VRAMdemon]

It is indeed disturbing how the pro-zionists are so easily justifying mass genocide based on the leadership of a far-right criminal and a far-right wing governments propaganda, and a government that has a history of terrorism, lying, oppressing, killing civilians, and anything you can imagine. I mean they are simply defending genocide of what was an already apartheid state. It's disgusting.

And they get pouty with me because I call the pro-Zionists what they are in this thread. Imagine the pro-genocidal maniacs get all upset if you call them out. Pro-genocidal maniacs, though, usually have very little self-awareness, as you have noticed in this thread.

Here he is again stinking up the place with his snarl generalizations and projections of everyone in this thread that he won't name. Who are all these "pro genocidal maniacs" in this thread. That's a strong accusation and everyone here in this discussion should really know who they are. You have called no one out! Who are they troll?

 

[K1052]

The new speaker has already stepped on his own nuts. The Dems are never going to allow offset aid and especially not the IRA funding for IRS which already saw a cut in the debt deal the Rs reneged on.

Senate will try to jam him with the big package now (Israel/Ukraine/Taiwan aid plus border security money Rs want).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719100045125947628

 

[brycejones]

The new speaker has already stepped on his own nuts. The Dems are never going to allow offset aid and especially not the IRA funding for IRS which already saw a cut in the debt deal the Rs reneged on.

Senate will try to jam him with the big package now (Israel/Ukraine/Taiwan aid plus border security money Rs want).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719100045125947628

Of course the party of (checks notes) "fiscal responsibility" goes after funding that actually generates a positive return for the government by increasing collected taxes

 

[K1052]

Of course the party of (checks notes) "fiscal responsibility" goes after funding that actually generates a positive return for the government by increasing collected taxes

Jesus specifically mentioned that it should be easier to cheat on your taxes of course. He's just following the Bible.

 

[brycejones]

Jesus specifically mentioned that it should be easier to cheat on your taxes of course. He's just following the Bible.

Render unto Ceaser really means Ceaser's Palace....

 

[Sunburn74]

How do you fight a group that's using human shields? I agree with the idea that you can't slaughter noncombatants, but doesn't that equate to not being able to retaliate? Israel ends up in the position of either packing up and going home, or accepting civilian casualties. I sure as hell could never make that call.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Hasn't israel retaliated enough?

 

[Greenman]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Hasn't israel retaliated enough?

Don't know, but my hunch is they won't stop until Hamas is a bad memory.

 

[spacejamz]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Hasn't israel retaliated enough?

Would Hamas launch another attack or more rockets at Isreal? if so, then the answer is no.

If Hamas would just stop trying to kill all the Jewish people, this madness would end...