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Israel: We Are At War

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So far the press seems not really grasping at the reality of the situation which is the Israeli state trying to kill a couple million people by starvation aided by US mercenaries. The entire government should be wanted for war crimes and not able to travel to any civilized country without credible fear of ending up in The Hague.
 
K1052 said:
So far the press seems not really grasping at the reality of the situation which is the Israeli state trying to kill a couple million people by starvation aided by US mercenaries. The entire government should be wanted for war crimes and not able to travel to any civilized country without credible fear of ending up in The Hague.
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Well it is only 2 million people; i mean this pales compared to the 30+ million Russia would like to eradicate 😉

Besides from israel perspective they aren't people but rabid dogs.

One thing is when Israel is done the number of people hating all jews for Israel action will sky rocket.
 
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I think they are testing God. They will be sorry. Even if they win. Monsters can't enjoy their life with so much blood on their hands. Their generations will pay. One way or the other.
 
Same shit starting on the west bank btw

While starving Gaza and its 80% refugee population, Israel is expanding its war on Palestinian refugees—and on their very ‘refugee-ness’—in the West Bank.Our updated analysis shows that the Israeli military is continuing to carve up the refugee camps of Tulkarm, Jenin and Nur Shams to establish new military routes, displace Palestinians, and dismantle historic centres of resistance.By demolishing homes and repeatedly uprooting Palestinians, Israel is not only forcing them from place to place—itself a form of physical and psychological warfare—but attempting to erase the fact that these locations were ever refugee camps at all and weaken Palestinian demand for return.Each wave of displacement seeks to dissolve the Palestinian refugee identity and undermine the population’s political, historical and legal claims.
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FA Projects

Forensic Architecture
frames.forensic-architecture.org frames.forensic-architecture.org

https://twitter.com/x/status/1948478306535309767

https://twitter.com/x/status/1948064188720382451
 
France to recognize Palestinian state. Expects others to follow suit.

www.bbc.com

France to recognise Palestinian state in September

France to become the first G7 state to recognise the state of Palestine, as Israeli PM Netanyahu condemns decision.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Countries that already recognize Palestine as a state:

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Palestine

1600px-Palestine_recognition_only.svg.png
 
It is totally unconscionable to let CENTCOM burn through the THAAD and SM interceptor stockpile for Israeli adventurism. This has to end. Oh we can't send fucking AIM-7s to Ukraine but anything for Netanyahu I guess. Even with all this the Iranians came very close to exhausting the combined US/Israeli interceptor magazines.

EL AVIV—The U.S. has seven high-end Thaad missile-defense systems. During the 12-day war with Iran in June, two were deployed to Israel—and it wasn’t enough.

Operating alongside Israeli systems, Thaad operators at a furious clip, firing more than 150 missiles to shoot down the waves of Iranian ballistic missiles, according to U.S. officials. That is nearly a quarter of the interceptors ever purchased by the Pentagon.

The demand was so staggering that at one point, the Pentagon considered a plan to divert interceptors purchased by Saudi Arabia to the systems in Israel, one official said. The discussions were sensitive, because the kingdom’s cities and oil installations were also considered at risk during the conflict.

It wasn’t just the Thaad. The U.S. ran through large numbers of shipborne interceptors as well, and Israel quickly drained stockpiles for its own systems. Dozens of Iranian missiles
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Each Thaad interceptor costs about $13 million, according to budget documents, and the Pentagon has purchased around 650 since 2010. Officials have sought to buy 37 in the next fiscal year.

Lockheed Martin, which makes the systems, says it can make about 100 interceptors this year and is working with the government on options to increase production for new orders.

It would likely take more than a year and cost between $1.5 billion and $2 billion to replenish the Thaad interceptors fired during the 12-day war, according to Wes Rumbaugh, a CSIS fellow who researches Pentagon missile procurement and budget details.
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*internal screaming*

Those warships also went through interceptors at an alarming rate, the acting chief of naval operations, Adm. James Kilby, said on Capitol Hill in June. During the 12-day war, the ships shot about 80 SM-3s at Iranian threats, according to a U.S. official.

SM-3s, which are made by defense contractor RTX, cost between $8 million and $25 million depending on the variant.
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We make a dozen SM-3s per YEAR.

https://archive.is/nlU4V#selection-851.152-855.114
 
*ahem
We all know what the job is. Trump even explicitly declares it.

Trump tells Israel to ‘finish the job’​

And Trump, rather than urging an immediate return to the negotiating table, signaled Friday it was time for Israel to escalate its military campaign, even as images of starving children in Gaza lead to mounting global outrage.​
​
“I think they want to die, and it’s very, very bad,” Trump said of Hamas before leaving for a weekend trip to Scotland. “It got to be to a point where you’re gonna have to finish the job.”​
1753488592171.jpeg​
 
mikeymikec said:
Protective of whom? Israel needs "breathing room" because they're God's chosen people. They've claimed that their neighbour will have nuclear weapons in a matter of months for like the last four decades, and how have declared war against said neighbour while becoming a nuclear threat themselves that refuses UN inspections.

Israel is a far greater problem than all its neighbours put together because they've got the resources, support from the West to do whatever the hell they want and a thoroughly radicalised populace, and they've demonstrated the lengths they're willing to with their ethnic cleansing / genocide in Palestine.
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"Protective from whom?" Two main goals here - Israel's top priority is defending itself from Islamist groups that literally have 'destroying Israel' as their stated objective. Iran passed an actual bill to "destroy" Israel by 2041, Houthis officially chant "Death to Israel," and Hamas got training and cash from Iran for October 7th.

Look, you can debate the ethics of how Israel was founded in Palestine, how America was built over Native lands or Russia's expansion into Siberia all day long, but those states exist now and they're gonna fight to stay that way. When you've got neighbors openly saying "we will bury you," creating buffer zones and client states is just basic survival strategy.

Second point - the groups currently butchering minorities in Syria are operating at medieval society levels. We're talking mass executions of Alawites, door-to-door killings, Druze getting slaughtered in ethnic clashes - documented stuff, not speculation. Societies where mass religious killings are routine are basically at the same cultural development stage as Catholics vs Huguenots were in medieval Europe.

And yeah, before anyone jumps on me - I'm not defending Israel's actions in Palestine. They've created some fucking dystopian concentration camp situation there, no question. But here's the thing about that region - that's how ALL the major players operate there. Brutal force is the regional language of politics. So Israel's gradual reshaping as a local power center, bringing in Druze and Kurds as allies? That's not just smart for Israeli security - it's literally survival strategy for these minorities too, since local Arab groups want to physically exterminate them anyway.
 
ClusterSeven said:
"Protective from whom?" Two main goals here - Israel's top priority is defending itself from Islamist groups that literally have 'destroying Israel' as their stated objective. Iran passed an actual bill to "destroy" Israel by 2041, Houthis officially chant "Death to Israel," and Hamas got training and cash from Iran for October 7th.

Look, you can debate the ethics of how Israel was founded in Palestine, how America was built over Native lands or Russia's expansion into Siberia all day long, but those states exist now and they're gonna fight to stay that way. When you've got neighbors openly saying "we will bury you," creating buffer zones and client states is just basic survival strategy.

Second point - the groups currently butchering minorities in Syria are operating at medieval society levels. We're talking mass executions of Alawites, door-to-door killings, Druze getting slaughtered in ethnic clashes - documented stuff, not speculation. Societies where mass religious killings are routine are basically at the same cultural development stage as Catholics vs Huguenots were in medieval Europe.

And yeah, before anyone jumps on me - I'm not defending Israel's actions in Palestine. They've created some fucking dystopian concentration camp situation there, no question. But here's the thing about that region - that's how ALL the major players operate there. Brutal force is the regional language of politics. So Israel's gradual reshaping as a local power center, bringing in Druze and Kurds as allies? That's not just smart for Israeli security - it's literally survival strategy for these minorities too, since local Arab groups want to physically exterminate them anyway.
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There's no ethical debate to be had, genocide isn't somehow made ethically not so bad because of some other unrelated event in history. As far as I'm concerned one can be pro or anti-genocide, and it seems to me with your excuses that you're in the first camp. Israel is committing genocide purely for its own ends, there's no altruism or "protective" aim. That's not defence, there never is a defence of genocide. Hamas exists, sure, but characterising Israel's genocide, systematic starvation and destruction of Gaza as any kind of "defensive" tactic is just disgusting. Hamas is completely unable to resist Israel. Any other Islamist groups supposedly wanting to end Israel are about as much of a threat as they are to America, it's just a bad joke to act like Israel has to take them so seriously as to start military campaigns in other countries, and it sounds to me like you're gullible enough to believe that once Israel has utterly destroyed Gaza and everyone in it in "self-defence", that if they rinse and repeat against other neighbours you'll still be parroting your bullshit. "buffer zones", "client states", jfc, stop trying to use euphemisms for invasion and subjugation.

If you want to talk about what's going on in Syria then start a thread about it, but there's no justification for Israel's behaviour, nor is Israel "gradually reshaping into a local power centre", it is capable of utterly destroying any one of its neighbours, especially with the inexplicable and likely unshakable military support of some Western nations. The recent nonsense with Iran's nuclear facilities proves just how fucking gullible the US/UK are, it's like Iraq 2.0 all over again, they may as well have used the same literal word-for-word script, but when Israel come calling, we jump.

Is Israel allowed to defend itself? Absolutely. Does that extend to taking its neighbour's land and kicking people out of their homes? No. But that's what Israel has been doing ever since the UN decided to steal two thirds of Palestine from the natives to give to Jewish settlers as a moving-in present.

If at some point that Israel is a fairly even match for any of its neighbours and shit's going down between them, then maybe we can have a conversation about what tactics are more acceptable in war, but that is not even vaguely what the current situation is like in that part of the world.
 
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mikeymikec said:
If you want to talk about what's going on in Syria then start a thread about it, but there's no justification for Israel's behaviour, nor is Israel "gradually reshaping into a local power centre", it is capable of utterly destroying any one of its neighbours, especially with the inexplicable and likely unshakable military support of some Western nations. The recent nonsense with Iran's nuclear facilities proves just how fucking gullible the US/UK are, it's like Iraq 2.0 all over again, they may as well have used the same literal word-for-word script, but when Israel come calling, we jump.
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The main reason I decided to quit my read-only mode and enter this chat was seeing Israeli actions in Syria described as just another bad Israeli attack on some good actors. The thing is, I have reasons to closely watch the clusterfuck happening in Syria, and the forces that came to power there are now trying to make non-Arab and non-Turk civilian minorities kneel - they're no less evil than Israeli actions against Gaza civilians.

Your argument about "taking neighbor's land and kicking people out of their homes" doesn't work when the homeowners are willingly coming to you saying they want to join your community and quit their existing failed state that's going totally insane - and that's exactly what's happening now in Syria.

Once again, I can agree with almost everything being said here about excessive force use in Gaza against civilians, since this kind of action will just fuel jihadist spawning around the world. On the other hand, Israeli protective action in Druze/Kurdish regions would actually help the region as a whole, protect those minorities, and act as a shield for Israel from the northern direction. My key point is that exactly this kind of defensive approach may stabilize the region - by extending protection to minorities who don't like the way all sorts of religious fanatics operate there now.

So in this context, targeting aggressive fanatical groups that try to enforce their rule by brute force is valid peacekeeping action.

I agree that Israel's actions in Gaza are the complete opposite and just stimulate fanatic groups to grow larger. So my point is - Israel should be blamed for actions that don't support peace, but at the same time, no need to portray EVERY Israeli action as evil, like what was attempted here regarding Israeli strikes in Syria.
 
ClusterSeven said:
I agree that Israel's actions in Gaza are the complete opposite and just stimulate fanatic groups to grow larger. So my point is - Israel should be blamed for actions that don't support peace, but at the same time, no need to portray EVERY Israeli action as evil, like what was attempted here regarding Israeli strikes in Syria.
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IMO this is just baseless "a stopped clock is right twice a day" sort of logic, also frankly when a society has become so divorced from its morality to (at best) tolerate its government's commitment to genocide, the likelihood of that society doing any collective good to the region drops to virtually zero.

If you want to continue labouring under the misapprehension that Israel's actions in Syria are unrelated to Israel's general ambition for lebensraum, then you really ought to start a separate thread about it because at least to you it's clearly a separate topic.
 
The thread is literally titled 'Israel: We Are At War' - discussing Israeli military actions in different theaters seems pretty on-topic to me. I'm happy to drop it if mods think it's off-topic, but creating another dead thread to examine Israel from a slightly different angle seems pointless. As for your 'stopped clock' argument - that's exactly the kind of black-and-white thinking that keeps conflicts going forever. In the real world, you can't change anything from some idealistic 'white horse' position because there are no morally pure countries. But The 'small steps' approach actually works: condemn the bad stuff (Gaza), acknowledge when something's better (protecting minorities from ethnic cleansing), rather than the uncompromising 'you're absolute evil' ultimatum approach that just backs everyone into corners, makes constructive dialogue impossible and guarantees more bloodshed.
 
mikeymikec said:
IMO this is just baseless "a stopped clock is right twice a day" sort of logic, also frankly when a society has become so divorced from its morality to (at best) tolerate its government's commitment to genocide, the likelihood of that society doing any collective good to the region drops to virtually zero.

If you want to continue labouring under the misapprehension that Israel's actions in Syria are unrelated to Israel's general ambition for lebensraum, then you really ought to start a separate thread about it because at least to you it's clearly a separate topic.
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ClusterSeven is a fucking Zionist through and through but trying to water it down by adding mild token criticism of Israel here and there. Main hope is to gain a little cred into whatever spurious argument he is on about re Islamists the bigger threat facing the civilized world (which he hopes others to see Israel is part of). Zionist Israel is no more civilized than Nazi Germany ever was.
 
And there we have it - straight to the 'fucking Zionist' accusations and Nazi comparisons when faced with inconvenient facts about Syrian minorities being massacred. This is exactly what I meant about 'backing everyone into corners' with ultimatum thinking. Instead of engaging with the documented evidence of ethnic cleansing in Syria, you've jumped to name-calling and Godwin's Law.

Here's the thing - you can call me whatever labels make you feel better, but those Druze and Alawite families being executed door-to-door in Syria don't care about your ideological purity tests. They care about survival.
I've been pretty clear about condemning Israeli actions in Gaza. But apparently any acknowledgment that other actors in the region might also be doing terrible things makes someone a 'fucking Zionist' in your book. That kind of binary thinking is exactly why these conflicts never get resolved.

You want to compare Israel to Nazi Germany? Fine. But what do you call systematically hunting down religious minorities for execution based purely on their faith? Because that's what's happening in Syria right now, and your response is... to attack someone pointing it out.
 
ClusterSeven said:
I agree that Israel's actions in Gaza are the complete opposite and just stimulate fanatic groups to grow larger. So my point is - Israel should be blamed for actions that don't support peace, but at the same time, no need to portray EVERY Israeli action as evil, like what was attempted here regarding Israeli strikes in Syria.
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I mean, it's pretty easy to compare their actions today with the height of some of the more evil regimes we've seen. Would you find yourself stating the following under any circumstances?
"So my point is - Germany should be blamed for actions that don't support peace, but at the same time, no need to portray EVERY German action as evil, like what was attempted here regarding German strikes in Poland/France/England."
 
i never saw anyone saying that nazi germany has a 'right to exist' but that bullshit line get's thrown out like candy when talking about dear plucky little israel

mondoweiss.net

The New York Times commitment to Zionism begins with its own staff

The New York Times has helped to enable and sustain Israel’s ongoing genocide. A new dossier reveals the close ties of 20 top editors, executives, and journalists at the Times who have covered Gaza and their connection to Israel and Zionism.
mondoweiss.net mondoweiss.net

that's been an open secret for a really long time

newyorkwarcrimes.com

Exposing The New York Times: The Paper of Zionist Record

High-ranking Times editors and reporters have material and ideological ties to Israel’s occupation and apartheid. Their journalistic malpractice enables genocide in Gaza.
newyorkwarcrimes.com
 
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Sorry for not quoting what I'm replying to - the forum won't let my responses through when I include quotes for some reason, will try a workaround:

"So my point is - Germany should be blamed for actions that don't support peace, but at the same time, no need to portray EVERY German action as evil, like what was attempted here regarding German strikes in Poland/France/England."

Nice try with the false analogy, but that comparison falls apart immediately. Nazi Germany's entire ideology was built on racial superiority and systematic extermination from day one - Mein Kampf was written in the 1920s, not 1942. The genocidal intent was baked into the system from the start, with extermination of 'inferior peoples' as a core ideological goal.

That's fundamentally different from responding to neighbors who literally have 'destroy Israel' as official state policy. Nazi Germany was the aggressor launching unprovoked invasions for lebensraum. Israel is responding to Iran's official countdown clock for its destruction, Hamas training child soldiers to 'kill Jews,' and Hezbollah stockpiling missiles on its border.

The analogy would work if Israel's founding documents called for exterminating other peoples, if Arab citizens were banned from voting, holding office, or serving as judges, or if Israel was invading random countries for racial empire. But that's not what's happening - these are responses to actual documented threats, not an ideological crusade for racial domination.

Here's the thing - Israel has growing military power and that's not going away. The smart approach is channeling that power constructively: condemn force against civilians, support force against legitimate military threats. That actually steers the ship rather than just screaming 'Nazi' and guaranteeing they ignore you completely.

You want to critique specific Israeli policies? Fair game. But comparing defensive actions against groups explicitly calling for genocide to Nazi aggression? That's not analysis, that's just inflammatory rhetoric designed to shut down discussion.
 
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