Israel. the PLO will soon meet to talk about talking

[Lemon law]

In talks brokered by the King of Jordan, Israel, the Palestinians, parts of the quartet, will all meet in Amman, Jordan on 1/3/2012.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...s-to-hold-talks-in-jordan-on-tuesday-1.404942

Although its widely expected those talks will lead to much.

Because the real fireworks begin 1/26/2012 when the UN deadline for Israel and the Palestinians to resume direct talks expire.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...put-israel-under-international-siege-1.404973

Which will put to the test the Netanyuhu propaganda and the PA's actual recent behavior in the international community. Maybe the USA can use its security council veto to blunt some of the damage to Israel, but being too pro-Israel may start to really cost the USA more international Isolation than the American people are willing to pay. In short the real acid test starts 1/26/2012. The day the Palestinians agreed to wait for.

I conclude with two editorials by Haaretz, opinion granted, that rational Israelis could see Netanyuhu destroy the state of Israel if the Israeli government does not change iits stupid policies.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-israel-s-rule-is-that-of-the-jungle-1.404821

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israeli-war-drums-ignore-hamas-move-for-change-1.404822

As my last comment that the Israeli narrative of being the sole good guys and the Palestinians the villains may finally start unraveling fast. And at least Israel will have to agree on a settlement freeze while post 1/26/2012 finally lead to a final resolution as Israel goes back to its 1967 borders as it gains total recognition regarding its right to exist.

A win win win for everyone as the mid-east ceases to be a powder keg.

 

[Nebor]

That's a good idea. Invite him over to dinner, turn him from an enemy into a friend, then when he's not expecting it, BAM, the ol' fork in the eye.

 

[Karl Agathon]

Aside from LL's obvious bias towards one side, I would love it if something positive could come out of these talks for both parties involved.

 

[Lemon law]

That's a good idea. Invite him over to dinner, turn him from an enemy into a friend, then when he's not expecting it, BAM, the ol' fork in the eye.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is inviting whom over to dinner, Nebor? The world keeps on a changing, not a word of those links are written by me, and now Israel can either accept the invitation to a dinner of decision, or go la la la, and dine on their own propaganda. When that Israeli propaganda contains no nutritional value and worse yet is solely an Israeli poison.

 

[JEDIYoda]

In talks brokered by the King of Jordan, Israel, the Palestinians, parts of the quartet, will all meet in Amman, Jordan on 1/3/2012.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...s-to-hold-talks-in-jordan-on-tuesday-1.404942

Although its widely expected those talks will lead to much.

Because the real fireworks begin 1/26/2012 when the UN deadline for Israel and the Palestinians to resume direct talks expire.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...put-israel-under-international-siege-1.404973

Which will put to the test the Netanyuhu propaganda and the PA's actual recent behavior in the international community. Maybe the USA can use its security council veto to blunt some of the damage to Israel, but being too pro-Israel may start to really cost the USA more international Isolation than the American people are willing to pay. In short the real acid test starts 1/26/2012. The day the Palestinians agreed to wait for.

I conclude with two editorials by Haaretz, opinion granted, that rational Israelis could see Netanyuhu destroy the state of Israel if the Israeli government does not change iits stupid policies.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-israel-s-rule-is-that-of-the-jungle-1.404821

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israeli-war-drums-ignore-hamas-move-for-change-1.404822

As my last comment that the Israeli narrative of being the sole good guys and the Palestinians the villains may finally start unraveling fast. And at least Israel will have to agree on a settlement freeze while post 1/26/2012 finally lead to a final resolution as Israel goes back to its 1967 borders as it gains total recognition regarding its right to exist.

A win win win for everyone as the mid-east ceases to be a powder keg.

I see nothing here forcing--did I say FORCING Israel to do a damn thing!
Lemon Law must have got some real potent shrooms for Christmas!!! Dream on dude.........

 

[EagleKeeper]

All I see in this wall of text from LL is that the Palestinians still do not want to accept responsibilities for their actions.

?Negotiate on how to negotiate?
Unless Israel shows a good faith, we will not show; and it will be Israel's fault.
Like should a table be square, oval or round.

Previously, they have demanded concessions to even talk.
They have never gone to the talks with a honest effort.
They have broken their agreement from Oslo.

They are talking about blaming Israel for the Gaza incursion of '08

These mis-understood/mistreated children abandon by the world.

 

[Lemon law]

To EK, In all that wall of text that came from the pages of Haaretz, was a combination of news and opinion. As you respond with the same of tired old Israeli propaganda. So point granted Ek, you have convinced your self again.

But one the tactics that Israel may end up facing is an economic embargo even the USA can't veto. Israel is quick to call for embargoes of anyone they don't like, Israel may feel different when the embargo is directed at them.

After all, various Israeli fan clubbers can whistle going past the graveyard self convinced of their own cause, but would be well advised to remember UN Palestinian support is now well above 65% and Israeli support is falling at an ever faster rate in just the last two years. And its the UN who will be the ultimate deciders, not Israel, not Muslim extremists, or just the United States.

The last great delusion on threads such as this, is that there will be some final great event, and Israel will either totally win or totally lose. With the same being said about the Palestinians.

When people of good will should be looking for a fair and just decision where Israel gains popular recognition to be safe and secure within its own 1967 borders and Palestinian get a State also. In short a win win, not a win lose situation.

As the other thing Israeli fan clubbers should be very worried about, is the any more Israeli settlement on disputed land will make the two State solution no longer tenable.
And then only one fair settlement option remains, Israel being forced to assimilate its Palestinians with full voting rights. Israel will still be Israel, but Israel will no longer remain a "Jewish" State. Nor was Israel supposed to be a solely Jewish State at its creation in 1948.

 

[theeedude]

What's there to talk about while Israel keeps building settlements? How to legitimize its land theft?

 

[EagleKeeper]

What's there to talk about while Israel keeps building settlements? How to legitimize its land theft?

Land theft is no different than what the Palestinians tried to do and failed.
Reward them again for failure.

The Palestinians have been told multiple times that when Israel has peace; there will be no settlements.

The Palestinians are not interested in straight up peace - they want peace that penalzes Israel for existing

 

[Lemon law]

Land theft is no different than what the Palestinians tried to do and failed.
Reward them again for failure.

The Palestinians have been told multiple times that when Israel has peace; there will be no settlements.

The Palestinians are not interested in straight up peace - they want peace that penalzes Israel for existing

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a total distortion and a lie EK. Fatah has had a policy of non-violence to Israel for two decades now, and still Israel keeps building settlements instead.

It would be nice to believe your statement EK, but when the very facts of accelerated Israeli settlement prove your contention is untrue, you ask me to blame my very own eyes.

 

[EagleKeeper]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a total distortion and a lie EK. Fatah has had a policy of non-violence to Israel for two decades now, and still Israel keeps building settlements instead.

It would be nice to believe your statement EK, but when the very facts of accelerated Israeli settlement prove your contention is untrue, you ask me to blame my very own eyes.

When did the Palestinians offer a viable peace to Israel?

Fatah claims to represent the Palestinians - then what is Hamas?

One has to accept the responsibility of the other if they claim to represent the other.

 

[Lemon law]

When did the Palestinians offer a viable peace to Israel?

Fatah claims to represent the Palestinians - then what is Hamas?

One has to accept the responsibility of the other if they claim to represent the other.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets turn the question around EK, when did Israel offer a viable peace alternative to the Palestinians? After all, the right to return is a just Palestinian right even 64 years later.
And is still on the table today.

After all if we roll the clock back to 2/1948, Israeli Jews only owned 1/3 of the land in 1948 Israel, and 0% of the the land in the disputed territories Israel occupied after the 1967 and 73 wars. To date the only land vacated by Israel is in the can't grow a weed Sinai desert
and that was by a joint treaty between Israel and Egypt.

My comment is, as excessive Israeli greed starts to gag almost every nation on earth, if Israel demands too much as its negotiating position fast deceases, the least of Israeli worries my be in losing the illegitimate gains in the 1967&73 wars. As Israel may end up losing a significant part of its 1948 borders too as the right to return gains international approval.

Or we could roll back the clock to the Olmert negotiations with the PLO, as the PLO was very close to inking a deal that very one lopsidedly favored Israel. But when Olmert fell in an Israeli corruption scandal, Netanyuhu demanded even more.

Just food for thought EK, if Israel demand way way way more than what is fair, Israel may end up with far less than what could have gotten in 2008.

 

[EagleKeeper]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets turn the question around EK, when did Israel offer a viable peace alternative to the Palestinians? After all, the right to return is a just Palestinian right even 64 years later. WHY
And is still on the table today.

After all if we roll the clock back to 2/1948, Israeli Jews only owned 1/3 of the land in 1948 Israel, and 0% of the the land in the disputed territories Israel occupied after the 1967 and 73 wars. To date the only land vacated by Israel is in the can't grow a weed Sinai desert
and that was by a joint treaty between Israel and Egypt. What about the Gaza - Israel pulled out of that hoping to entice peace with the return of control of land. something that the Palestinians had been asking. Once Israel pulled out their settlements; the Palestinians moved up and continued to shell from those areas. Land for peace may have worked with Egypt, it has not with the Palestinians.

My comment is, as excessive Israeli greed starts to gag almost every nation on earth, if Israel demands too much as its negotiating position fast deceases, the least of Israeli worries my be in losing the illegitimate gains in the 1967&73 wars. As Israel may end up losing a significant part of its 1948 borders too as the right to return gains international approval.
What was Israel demanding - Peace. No attacks against their people. they were going back to the '67 borders with some adjustments. As others have stated here and in the media 97% of what was the '67 would go to the Palestinians. That was refused.
It is the Palestinians that want to wipe their record and instead of starting of as partners in peace, want to place demands.

Or we could roll back the clock to the Olmert negotiations with the PLO, as the PLO was very close to inking a deal that very one lopsidedly favored Israel. But when Olmert fell in an Israeli corruption scandal, Netanyuhu demanded even more.

Just food for thought EK, if Israel demand way way way more than what is fair, Israel may end up with far less than what could have gotten in 2008.

The Palestinians have demanded for the right of return. they know that it is not going to happen. Israel is not going to let those people and descendants back in. those that ran did not believe in Israel; many believed in the Arabs and the promises to get all of Israel. Many also fought against Israel.

Abbas had an opportunity after Annapolis (one of your favorite points) and refused to follow up as agreed.
Abbas asked for a new settlement freeze for 9 months as a symbol of Israel's willingness to solve the issue and talk "peace". He never showed while Israel suspended that activity as requested.
Oslo again was the Palestinians agreeing and then renouncing the agreement.

LL - you want to put the blame on Israel for not caving into the Palestinians.
I see the Palestinians of not trying in good faith to solve the issues.
Latest example is that they want 100 more prisoners released just to talk about coming back to the table. this is after 1000 prisoners were released.

You refuse to acknowledge the impact of Hamas within the Palestinians; yet you want Israel to treat them as the Fatah group. They are not and refuse to be.

You toss around the word fair.

Is it fair that Israel has to give up her security. for 60+ years, she has been under continual attacks from the Arabs and the Palestinians.
Is if fair that she is condemned when she defends herself.
Is it fair that truces are made by the opponents that are broken within hours.
Is it fair that the UN which is supposed to be impartial, allows opponents to setup in the neutral zone.

Fair is a word that the underdog uses to try to get sympathy.

The right of return is not a fair issue. It is a reward for failure.

Everyone wants to reward the Palestinians for their and the Arab's failures.

97% of the land that was lost by the Arabs in the conflicts after '48 were to be exchanged for peace. That seems fair - but the Palestinians and their puppet masters want over 100%

 

[Lemon law]

What a laughable revisionist history EK. As you label the Palestinian people as a single entity who all attacked Israel in 1948. While you ignore many of them were either murdered by Israeli death squads starting even before 1948 or chased out of Israel by the Israeli army. Point granted, some Palestinians attacked Israel, but there was no Israeli due process of law to determine which Palestinians were guilty when most of them were not.

But by 1953, in a really fast shuffle, every Palestinian property owner was disenfranchised by Israel. EK, maybe you can fool some people who understand nothing about the true history, but most of the other nations of this world don't buy it.

Oh in related news, just hours before today's talks started in Amman, Israel announced building 300 apartments beyond the green zone in East Jerusalem.

I don't think Tony Blair of the Quartet, will be amused. And Jan 26 when the real fireworks begin is coming up fast. Its those talks that will have teeth. And without a real and total settlement freeze on the part of Israel, the Israeli propaganda may unravel with likely disastrous results for Israel.

You are welcome to say oh no it won't, as for me, I will wait and see what the actual FUTURE holds.

 

[theeedude]

Land theft is no different than what the Palestinians tried to do and failed.
Reward them again for failure.

The Palestinians have been told multiple times that when Israel has peace; there will be no settlements.

The Palestinians are not interested in straight up peace - they want peace that penalzes Israel for existing

Yeah, there won't be settlements when Israel has peace. It would have stolen all the land by then.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Yeah, there won't be settlements when Israel has peace. It would have stolen all the land by then.

If the Palestinians choose to stall the talks - that is their choice.
Israel has given the ultimatum - continue the violence against Israel and we will continue allowing settlements. Last time they gave back settlements, there was no peace. Now it is up to the Palestinians to deliver first.

They have been offered multiple chances by Israel to solve these issues and thumbed their noses at those offers because it is not everything.

The Palestinians are their own worst enemy - willing to be puppets

 

[EagleKeeper]

What a laughable revisionist history EK. As you label the Palestinian people as a single entity who all attacked Israel in 1948. While you ignore many of them were either murdered by Israeli death squads starting even before 1948 or chased out of Israel by the Israeli army. Point granted, some Palestinians attacked Israel,Palestinians made up close to half the forces that attacked Israel in '48 but there was no Israeli due process of law to determine which Palestinians were guilty when most of them were not. You ran, you did not support Israel - simple. Traitors are not welcome

But by 1953, in a really fast shuffle, every Palestinian property owner was disenfranchised by Israel.There are Arabs in Israel that own land - your disfranchisement is bull.
EK, maybe you can fool some people who understand nothing about the true history, but most of the other nations of this world don't buy it.

Oh in related news, just hours before today's talks started in Amman, Israel announced building 300 apartments beyond the green zone in East Jerusalem.

I don't think Tony Blair of the Quartet, will be amused. And Jan 26 when the real fireworks begin is coming up fast. Its those talks that will have teeth. And without a real and total settlement freeze on the part of Israel, the Israeli propaganda may unravel with likely disastrous results for Israel.

You are welcome to say oh no it won't, as for me, I will wait and see what the actual FUTURE holds.

When you use the Arab PR as a history book, what more can one expect

 

[Lemon law]

For what it is worth, today's Jordanian talks basically collapsed. Somewhat as expected.

http://news.yahoo.com/no-breakthrough-mideast-peace-talks-223543160.html

Maybe the telling remark comes from Jordan, as tensions rise, Jordan is worried they too will be consumed as events spin out of all control.

Next step, 1/26/2012, unless the quartet comments before.

The lone bright spots is that the talks will somewhat continue as the quartet deadline approaches.

As the arena shifts to the the international community.

Or I can edit in the more optimistic Haaretz take on the 1/3/2012 meeting.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ee-to-meet-again-in-jordan-next-week-1.405332

As Sherlock Homes might comment the game is still afoot.

 

[EagleKeeper]

For what it is worth, today's Jordanian talks basically collapsed. Somewhat as expected.

http://news.yahoo.com/no-breakthrough-mideast-peace-talks-223543160.html

Maybe the telling remark comes from Jordan, as tensions rise, Jordan is worried they too will be consumed as events spin out of all control.

Next step, 1/26/2012, unless the quartet comments before.

The lone bright spots is that the talks will somewhat continue as the quartet deadline approaches.

As the arena shifts to the the international community.

Or I can edit in the more optimistic Haaretz take on the 1/3/2012 meeting.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ee-to-meet-again-in-jordan-next-week-1.405332

As Sherlock Homes might comment the game is still afoot.

For what it is worth, today's Jordanian talks basically collapsed. Somewhat as expected.

Where do you read in those articles the fact that they basically collapsed? :\

Information was exchanged between both parties; neither slammed the other and they have agreed to to meed again next week.

No one expected a break through except you.
All that was hoped was that both sides would agree to move forward together and that is what they are doing.