Israel proposes 10-month West Bank settlement halt

[sandorski]

A complete permanent halt is preferred, but a temporary one is at least a positive gesture.

 

[kylebisme]

It's a hollow gesture which exemplifies Israel's refusal to support a two-state solution on the basis of international law, just like every other Israeli "gesture" before it.

 

[sandorski]

It's a hollow gesture which exemplifies Israel's refusal to support a two-state solution on the basis of international law, just like every other Israeli "gesture" before it.

Could be, time will tell.

 

[JEDIYoda]

It's a hollow gesture which exemplifies Israel's refusal to support a two-state solution on the basis of international law, just like every other Israeli "gesture" before it.

So lets get this straight...the solution according to you is for israel to bend over and grab their ankles and let themselves be.....raped........

 

[kylebisme]

Rather, the solution is for Israel to stop being Palestinians over to continue raping them and instead agree to a just solution to this conflict on the basis of international law.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Rather, the solution is for Israel to stop being Palestinians over to continue raping them and instead agree to a just solution to this conflict on the basis of international law.

You know you and lemon law are probably brothers.....
There is NOT a nation on earth that abides by International law.....unless it is to their advantage to do so!
In fact you really need to quit trying to sound like you know the fuck what your talking about.....
You just made probably one of the most idiotic statements ever made in the history of these boards.....
a just solution to this conflict on the basis of international law.

That will never ever happen.

 

[kylebisme]

Peace doesn't come without justice, and justice don't come by subverting law. What advantage do you see in continuing to rape Palestinians rather than making peace with them?

 

[Freshgeardude]

This is the first time Israel is offering anything close to what palestinians want in the settlement dispute and you are still complaining?

If you read, its going to continue those few places being built. its way better than nothing and that, you dont understand

 

[brandonb]

Both parties need to compromise. This is a nice step on the Israeli side. Let's see if it holds.

I've heard this "halt settlements" things a few times in the past (and I assume it failed). With a single rock being lobbed over the Great Wall of Isreal, I'm sure the halt will be off and settlements will resume. Let's hope that doesn't come to be, and let's hope Palestinians don't lob those rocks. But if its business as usual, both will be happening before the month's end.

 

[Double Trouble]

Actually you have been brainwashed into believeing that without the backing and money we give israel that israel would be powerless. That is not even close to being true.
In fact israel would be 100 times as swift as they are now to counter any threarts.

In fact the reality is due to our support a case can be made that the IDF is no where near as agressive as they would be if they didn`t walk on egg shells to sort of pacify the US.

The bottom line is we need the Israeli`s more than they need us.

As for the Palestinians..lets see
No standing army...
no military budget...unless we include thet weapons that thge supposed government of the Palestinians purchase...
Not one middle east nation willing to directly come out and support the Palestinian people.
The palestinians are a group hated by their own middle eastern brothers....
need i go on and on and on....

All you did was prove my point. The Palestinians have nothing, so they resist/fight with what they have. That's called terrorism. Israel has the means, the military and the money. They both do the same crap to each other, just in different ways, and the 'tit for tat' back and forth has been going on for generations.... I have no problem with calling a spade a spade. When some wacko Palestinian blows himself up killing innocent, that's terrorism. When an Israeli tank crushes some Palestinian home or a helicopter fires a rocket that kills innocents, I call that terrorism as well.

Oh, and we need the Israeli's more than they need us? Are you smoking dope? We don't "need" them for anything, yet we send them countless billions in aid, loan guarantees, weapons, etc, because there's such a strong Jewish lobby in the US. Israel has (wisely) used that money to invest in their infrastructure and technology.

 

[Freshgeardude]

All you did was prove my point. The Palestinians have nothing, so they resist/fight with what they have. That's called terrorism. Israel has the means, the military and the money. They both do the same crap to each other, just in different ways, and the 'tit for tat' back and forth has been going on for generations.... I have no problem with calling a spade a spade. When some wacko Palestinian blows himself up killing innocent, that's terrorism. When an Israeli tank crushes some Palestinian home or a helicopter fires a rocket that kills innocents, I call that terrorism as well.

Oh, and we need the Israeli's more than they need us? Are you smoking dope? We don't "need" them for anything, yet we send them countless billions in aid, loan guarantees, weapons, etc, because there's such a strong Jewish lobby in the US. Israel has (wisely) used that money to invest in their infrastructure and technology.

bold- you have to remember, terrorists in gaza hid amongst civillians on purpose. they allowed the terrorists to manipulate them. They are hardly innocent after they voted hamas into power and when the let terrorists launch rockets from their apartments

 

[Lemon law]

The Israeli Palestinian Arab conflict has been going on even before the formation of the Israeli State in 1948, and its not rocket science to predict that it will continue until some realistic peace plan is implemented.

At this point in time, anti Israeli terrorism is a minor Israeli annoyance and little else. Leaving Israel little incentive to settle anything except on a totally one sided negotiating stance that Arabs and Palestinians cannot accept.

The myth is to assume that better technology will not fall into terrorists hands and that those technologies will finally reach above the minor annoyance levels and become major dangers.

And then the Israeli Achilles heel will be exposed, Israel as a very small state simply does not have a buffer zone and cannot acquire one. And even if Israel can passify Hamas and Hezbollah as they have Fatah, all those groups will be replaced by terrorists groups who can get the job of making Israel really hurt.

Then things will get really violent as Israeli futilely tries to engage in an orgy of illegal collective punishment.

Personally I hope terrorist technology never gets that far, but I suspect the best road to peace is going to be third party binding arbitration based on international law. Neither side(s) will like it, but they can like it or lump it.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The Israeli Palestinian Arab conflict has been going on even before the formation of the Israeli State in 1948, and its not rocket science to predict that it will continue until some realistic peace plan is implemented.

At this point in time, anti Israeli terrorism is a minor Israeli annoyance and little else. Leaving Israel little incentive to settle anything except on a totally one sided negotiating stance that Arabs and Palestinians cannot accept.

The myth is to assume that better technology will not fall into terrorists hands and that those technologies will finally reach above the minor annoyance levels and become major dangers.

And then the Israeli Achilles heel will be exposed, Israel as a very small state simply does not have a buffer zone and cannot acquire one. And even if Israel can pacify Hamas and Hezbollah as they have Fatah, all those groups will be replaced by terrorists groups who can get the job of making Israel really hurt.

Then things will get really violent as Israeli futilely tries to engage in an orgy of illegal collective punishment.

Personally I hope terrorist technology never gets that far, but I suspect the best road to peace is going to be third party binding arbitration based on international law. Neither side(s) will like it, but they can like it or lump it.

Israel's buffer zone is the land that they have conquered in war from the Arab states. Yet you want them to expose themselves without guarantees.
They have taken/expanded that buffer zone only when it has been demonstrated that the existing zones are not adequate; either militarily or delay reaction to mobilize enough to keep the Arabs from stepping onto the original '48 borders.

The Palestinians are not going to accept arbitration due to a multiple of issues.
0) It would offend their pride as being dictated to.
1) Their terrorist sponsors would lose influence
2) They can not speak with one voice
3) The insistent of preconditions (as has been shown in negotiations previously)
4) The inability of whomever is in charge to back up their words.

 

[Lemon law]

IMHO the Common Courtesy reasoning of,

"Israel's buffer zone is the land that they have conquered in war from the Arab states. Yet you want them to expose themselves without guarantees.
They have taken/expanded that buffer zone only when it has been demonstrated that the existing zones are not adequate; either militarily or delay reaction to mobilize enough to keep the Arabs from stepping onto the original '48 borders.",

Is flawed in two ways.

(1) If Israel had used the land captured in the 1967 war as a buffer zone they merely policed, Common Courtesy might have a point, but instead they are settling
on the disputed land they do not own, effectively making Israel a slightly bigger tiny state with no buffer zone. And Israel is still bordered on three sides but its potentially hostile neighbors.

(2) There is no such thing as a guarantee of non hostility from your neighbors, but Israeli behavior seems designed to insure perpetual hostility from its neighbors. Israel's neighbors may fear Israel, but fear only inspires a desire to destroy what you fear. And only a just mid east settlement can defuse the tensions.

We have to note that Europe is littered with tiny countries that have no real defense against being taken over by larger neighbors. But they sure did not endure by trying to be a military powerhouse that antagonized its neighbors like Israel is doing.

Israel is now skating on very thin ice after raping Lebanon and Gaza in three short years. As it is Egypt is only held back by bribes, but if Arab attitudes turn worse, and Turkey joins in, the next Israeli military incursion will likely inspire even more terrorist support at a very minimum. 275 million to five million is very long odds indeed, especially if Arab States start an oil money fueled arms race Israel cannot hope to match.

 

[EagleKeeper]

IMHO the Common Courtesy reasoning of,

"Israel's buffer zone is the land that they have conquered in war from the Arab states. Yet you want them to expose themselves without guarantees.
They have taken/expanded that buffer zone only when it has been demonstrated that the existing zones are not adequate; either militarily or delay reaction to mobilize enough to keep the Arabs from stepping onto the original '48 borders.",

Is flawed in two ways.

(1) If Israel had used the land captured in the 1967 war as a buffer zone they merely policed, Common Courtesy might have a point, but instead they are settling
on the disputed land they do not own, effectively making Israel a slightly bigger tiny state with no buffer zone. And Israel is still bordered on three sides but its potentially hostile neighbors.

(2) There is no such thing as a guarantee of non hostility from your neighbors, but Israeli behavior seems designed to insure perpetual hostility from its neighbors. Israel's neighbors may fear Israel, but fear only inspires a desire to destroy what you fear. And only a just mid east settlement can defuse the tensions.

We have to note that Europe is littered with tiny countries that have no real defense against being taken over by larger neighbors. But they sure did not endure by trying to be a military powerhouse that antagonized its neighbors like Israel is doing.

Israel is now skating on very thin ice after raping Lebanon and Gaza in three short years. As it is Egypt is only held back by bribes, but if Arab attitudes turn worse, and Turkey joins in, the next Israeli military incursion will likely inspire even more terrorist support at a very minimum. 275 million to five million is very long odds indeed, especially if Arab States start an oil money fueled arms race Israel cannot hope to match.

Isreal has continually demostrated that quailty will win over in a battle with the Arabs. No Arab country that neighbors Egypt has an interest in Israel w/ exception of the paper tiger called Syria.

Israel does not treat a buffer zone as an empty piece of land. It requires tripwires to slow down an advance until the body of the IDF can be brought to bear.

Lebanon (w/ exception of Hezbollah) has no interst in Israel. Presently, there is the UN buffer; which negates the need for Israel to be concerned (unless the UN closes their eyes to Hezbollah actions).

Jordan has no interest and would actually prefer Israel handle the Palestinian problem.

Egypt has no vested interest in Israel. They have the Sinai wasteland back and technology has shown that Israel can detect an attempt to move forces into the Sinai; staging from Egypt will not help in an attack on Israel proper.

Now with the exception of trouble makers within the Arab world, there is no Arab nation that should have a beef with the existance of Israel. That does not mean that they hate Israel because they are not Muslim. they are lying to themselves and the world if they calim that it is because of the PAlestinians.

It is those troublemakers that feel that they have to use proxies to torment Israel, because either their home countries are wise enough to not challenge Israel directly, to weak to try to challenge, or to remote to have any influence.

As long as the trouble makers are supporting/controlling the Palestinian militants; the Palestinians will not try for peace.

Israel has again offered an option to test the desire of the Palestinians -if the Palestinians reject the open door and instead slam it closed...

Preconditions for any talks will cause no talks to occur to resolve the issues.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

OK, i'm about as much of a Jew as you get without being religious, i've constantly supported Israel and kyleimfuckedup and other twats have screamed to high heavens about it but this...

Seriously?

Israel does what Israel does, this is a charade like all other charades, you'd think it'd get tiresome but apparently Israelis are utterly retarded by now and don't understand that it's happening all over again, what is this, the 30'th time around?

Israel needs to quit all settlements, ALL of them, PERMANENTLY, and THEN there are grounds for peace talks.

This is just a coached effort to allow rogue groups to shoot a few more rockets and allow Israel to continue the settlements further.

I'm sorry my Jewish friends but this isn't a sign of good faith, it's just playing the game again.

I may be Jewish and i may agree with Israel most of the time but in this case... I'm sorry, tell me again how the fuck this works and be honest to the bone. I am and i expect nothing less from my brethren.

 

[Lemon law]

I think Common Courtesy under estimates emotions on both sides. Right now you have to look under the belly of snakes to find anyone in the Arab world that does not have a visceral hatred of Israel. A hatred that is largely earned buy Israel and partly encouraged by the more pragmatic leaders of the surrounding Arab States who are more interested in their personal political survival.

The Israeli danger is such a situation lies in reaching a tipping point, where the Arab man on the street demands more proactive measures against Israel. A woe on to the leader of an Arab nation who does not comply. Or they will be overthrown.

And that anti Israeli pandering can come in three basic forms even failing to come up with the next Arab Nassar.

1. Greatly increased funding for anti-Israeli terrorists.
2. An arms build up fueled by oil money.
3. A political realignment in the mid-east, with Saudi Arab and Egypt being especially vulnerable. With Turkey and Iraq being the wild cards.

As for pre conditions, the Arabs bought that crapola at the Annapolis talks and Israel proved it was unwilling to be any kind of a peace partner. As Israel used the time to keep building more and more settlements on disputed land.

While I agree that Israel still has military hegemony, the question is how long will it last? Once that changes, then weight of numbers tell, and can Israel afford to kite hatreds now or then?

 

[Craig234]

bold- you have to remember, terrorists in gaza hid amongst civillians on purpose. they allowed the terrorists to manipulate them. They are hardly innocent after they voted hamas into power and when the let terrorists launch rockets from their apartments

I'd like to send some terrorists to your house and watch you chase them out and get shot.

Blame the 'terrorists', not the civilians.

And the whole 'terrorist' thing gets pretty absurd when the civilians are being attacked so wrongly by Israel.

If you were being attacked that way, if you were oppressed, you might not apply high standards to who you let fight your oppressor either.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Well, this plays into my little pet theory.

Israel buys time, offering up token peace gestures while taking actions that will totally derail the peace process but you can understand where they are coming from (eg, only housing freeze for 10 months which excludes Jerusalem). The arabs in gaza and west bank make things easier by looking for reasons to reject peace gestures.

While doing this, Israel seals up the west bank and gaza rendering those inside harmless. Various forms of barrier stop people from entering into Israel, the blockade prevents any serious weaponry from entering and now the "Iron Dome" is due to come online next year which will work towards rendering the last remaining threat, rockets, useless. Currently the Iron Dome is too expensive to intercept all missiles (fires one or two missiles at 25k a pop to intercept a incoming missile/mortar, but with radar can target only those that will hit populated areas) so when you hear of them working on something like a ground based laser interceptor (from what I've read, they could get it up and running in two years) you know they are getting serious.

So when the west bank and gaza are rendered harmless Israel will keep things real quiet for a decade or more. Make sure that there is little to be outraged over, no starvation, no incursions, try not to shoot anyone over the barriers unless they are trying to break through with hostile intent. Let the world forget that these people exist and the arabs move onto other more effective pawns to poke Israel with (eg, Lebanon).

What land Israel has now will become set in stone with the possibility of shifting the barriers every few years.

As for external threats, Israel is working on the Arrow ballistic missile defense system, is already putting Trophy anti ATG missile system on their armor (goodbye hezbollah's advantage), a military that can destroy all it's neighbors, and nukes.

The only real question is what the arabs living inside Israel will do when they see what is happening. From my understanding there is a large chuck of that population that consider themselves palestinian, not Israeli.

 

[SamurAchzar]

While I agree that Israel still has military hegemony, the question is how long will it last? Once that changes, then weight of numbers tell, and can Israel afford to kite hatreds now or then?

Peace or no peace, the day Israel loses that, is the day of a 2nd Jewish holocaust. The Arabs won't wait for one single moment before overrunning Israel. This is why this scenario isn't really worth any consideration.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Peace or no peace, the day Israel loses that, is the day of a 2nd Jewish holocaust. The Arabs won't wait for one single moment before overrunning Israel. This is why this scenario isn't really worth any consideration.

If it looked like the arabs would gain a decisive edge over Israel's military, I would put good money on the Israelis launching a preemptive strike. If it looked really bad, I would also not rule out nukes being used because what would they have left to lose? Should they lose just one war that's it, they are all dead.

Part of the reason I believe the USA is a firm supporter of Israel, trying to create some sort of balance over just giving Israel what they want (US money buying US weapons made in the USA) or abandoning Israel. Not to mention I believe The Israeli's (note I'm using the word "Israelis") would see the entire middle east burn before they gave up their land.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Well, this plays into my little pet theory.

Israel buys time, offering up token peace gestures while taking actions that will totally derail the peace process but you can understand where they are coming from (eg, only housing freeze for 10 months which excludes Jerusalem). The arabs in gaza and west bank make things easier by looking for reasons to reject peace gestures.

While doing this, Israel seals up the west bank and gaza rendering those inside harmless. Various forms of barrier stop people from entering into Israel, the blockade prevents any serious weaponry from entering and now the "Iron Dome" is due to come online next year which will work towards rendering the last remaining threat, rockets, useless. Currently the Iron Dome is too expensive to intercept all missiles (fires one or two missiles at 25k a pop to intercept a incoming missile/mortar, but with radar can target only those that will hit populated areas) so when you hear of them working on something like a ground based laser interceptor (from what I've read, they could get it up and running in two years) you know they are getting serious.

So when the west bank and gaza are rendered harmless Israel will keep things real quiet for a decade or more. Make sure that there is little to be outraged over, no starvation, no incursions, try not to shoot anyone over the barriers unless they are trying to break through with hostile intent. Let the world forget that these people exist and the arabs move onto other more effective pawns to poke Israel with (eg, Lebanon).

What land Israel has now will become set in stone with the possibility of shifting the barriers every few years.

As for external threats, Israel is working on the Arrow ballistic missile defense system, is already putting Trophy anti ATG missile system on their armor (goodbye hezbollah's advantage), a military that can destroy all it's neighbors, and nukes.

The only real question is what the arabs living inside Israel will do when they see what is happening. From my understanding there is a large chuck of that population that consider themselves palestinian, not Israeli.

You are forgetting Israel is looking for normalization with the Arab world, as it will immensely help it in terms of economy and world status. Israel has a lot to gain from a peace with the Palestinians, the only question is the price tag. Yes, what you described is basically feasible and correct, until Palestinians adjust their demands to what Israel is willing to hand out. Historically that was not the case - Israel was much more proactive towards peace - but it became such following the failures of the peace process.

The Arabs inside Israel will do nothing. They are not that foolish - very easy for them to claim association to the Palestinians but when Israel began discussing an option of doing territory swaps of the large Israeli Arab population blocks in exchange for settlements with the Palestinians, they were trembling. I guess living under the Israeli democracy isn't that bad.

So anyway, yea, what you describe is feasible and probable, until the Palestinians realize it and ask for negotiation with no preconditions. I'm not sure the Palestinians will be able to bring to powers a leadership that will do that - Hamas is very comfortable with the current situation. The last thing they need are educated, happy and free Palestinians that might have the corrupt idea of secularism creep into their little minds.

 

[Freshgeardude]

i'd like to send some terrorists to your house and watch you chase them out and get shot.

Blame the 'terrorists', not the civilians.

And the whole 'terrorist' thing gets pretty absurd when the civilians are being attacked so wrongly by israel.

If you were being attacked that way, if you were oppressed, you might not apply high standards to who you let fight your oppressor either.

they voted them into power.

 

[Jhhnn]

Israeli policy towards the Palestinians is driven by the Settlers, who *covet* what little the Palestinians possess, and who regard Palestinians as dangerous vermin and an impediment to their God-given right to the land. Very straightforward.

That's the underlying truth wrt any Israeli govt statements about peace- they don't want it, not with the Palestinians, and have been more than willing to trade peace for territory all along. If there were no violent resistance from the Palestinians, they'd find a way to foment it, to have an excuse for what they want to do anyway. They offer a temporary halt to settlement only because they're under a lot of pressure to declare a permanent halt, and to withdraw from part of what they've taken. Stalling for time, looking for plausibility to support future expansion.

Most of the rest of the world sees this, and would sanction Israel into a state of reasonableness if it weren't for US vetoes in the UN. Israel does not have a complete economy nor the resources to withstand such sanctions for long, at all, despite the ignorant ravings expressed in this thread and others.

None of these discussions would be complete w/o reference to the Holocaust, of course, to the guilt trip America has taken on because of it, and to our perceived need to protect Israel from a future occurrence. We can do that w/o allowing our Israeli friends to impose their own slow motion version of Lebensraum on neighboring populations. We've been manipulated for decades, and judging from many of the comments here, that manipulation is as effective as it's ever been. More's the pity.

 

[kylebisme]

Israel does what Israel does, this is a charade like all other charades, you'd think it'd get tiresome but apparently Israelis are utterly retarded by now and don't understand that it's happening all over again, what is this, the 30'th time around?

And that is why I've been screeming to high heavens about it, as the Zionist nutjob idiots here like Common Courtesy, Freshgeardude, JEDIYoda, and SamurAchzar all keep cheering on Israel's charades while waving their fingers at anyone but Israel for the effects of their ongoing conquest of the West Bank.

I may be Jewish and i may agree with Israel most of the time but in this case... I'm sorry, tell me again how the fuck this works and be honest to the bone. I am and i expect nothing less from my brethren.

You are expecting too much from them, as most Zionists can't even mange to be honest with themselves it comes to Israel, Jews and otherwise. It's a strange psychological thing, much like with WTC7 how so many people refuse to even consider anything but the official story regardless of how obvious it is that the building had been rigged to come down. Anyway, as for Jews who will tell you how it works, I recommend following Mondoweiss.

Yes, what you described is basically feasible and correct, until Palestinians adjust their demands to what Israel is willing to hand out. Historically that was not the case - Israel was much more proactive towards peace - but it became such following the failures of the peace process.

Currently and historically, Palestinians have never been asking for any hand outs, and only for Israel to respect what is theirs under international law, while Israel has become increasingly more belligerent in their refusal to accept peace on any such grounds. It is Palestinians who were tricked into handing over anything beyond the West Bank and Gaza strip, and as they got nothing to show for it they won't fall for that again.

The Arabs inside Israel will do nothing. They are not that foolish - very easy for them to claim association to the Palestinians but when Israel began discussing an option of doing territory swaps of the large Israeli Arab population blocks in exchange for settlements with the Palestinians, they were trembling. I guess living under the Israeli democracy isn't that bad.

Israel is more of an ethnocracy than a proper democracy, but that beats living under Israeli martial law as the millions of Palestinians without Israeli citizenship do.

The last thing they need are educated, happy and free Palestinians that might have the corrupt idea of secularism creep into their little minds.

Being secular does nothing to stop you and many others from being feeble minded zealots. Besides there are plenty of militant religious nutcases on the Israeli side too, as noted here:

For example, the army rabbinate gave soldiers serving in Gaza a booklet that stated not a millimeter of the Land of Israel could be given up. Ronski says this happened without his knowledge. The army also has let the right-wing organization Elad preach to soldiers about the Judaization of Jerusalem.

And by "Land of Israel" they are referring to presumed Biblical borders rather than those of the State of Israel under international law.