***Israel Planning Tactical Nuclear Attack***

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
If Israel starts this we could very well see the start of a large scale war.

How so? Who is Iran going to attack? They are not going to fly over Iraq and bomb Israel, our air defenses will see to that.

The only thing Iran can do is launch more terrorism against Israel or mess with the oil supply. The second option would be rather stupid based on the size of our force there in Iraq right now.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
If Israel starts this we could very well see the start of a large scale war.

How so? Who is Iran going to attack? They are not going to fly over Iraq and bomb Israel, our air defenses will see to that.

The only thing Iran can do is launch more terrorism against Israel or mess with the oil supply. The second option would be rather stupid based on the size of our force there in Iraq right now.

Iran has a quite large and capable army - unlike most of the middle east. Not to mention they've got support of most of the muslim population.

It'd really suck if Isreali started a war, the United States would undoublty be brought in.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
If Israel starts this we could very well see the start of a large scale war.

How so? Who is Iran going to attack? They are not going to fly over Iraq and bomb Israel, our air defenses will see to that.

The only thing Iran can do is launch more terrorism against Israel or mess with the oil supply. The second option would be rather stupid based on the size of our force there in Iraq right now.

Well as Aimster said, there will be a lot more resistance than there was with Iraq. They will launch a counter offensive. Not only that, does Iran have any allies that they will bring into the mess, should that happen.

-Kevin

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Iran has better air defense systems than Iraq.
They also upgraded their Mig-29 aircraft with their latest Russian deal for the Tor-M1 system. How far they are upgraded is unknown.
Iran's F-14 fleet has also been upgraded by Russia and by Iran themselves, but the Mig-29 should be more of a challenge than an upgrade F-14.
It is unknown if Iran has S-300 systems.
Iran does have Hawk systems, but how dangerous they are to F-16s, I am not aware of.

S-200, the old air defense tech floods Iran. I believe one of these systems hit an F-18 during 1991 in Iraq.

That is why it makes perfect sense for the U.S to attack Iran over Israel. Israel is going to have to dodge missiles and aircraft. The U.S can enter and leave and Iran is going to be like omgwtfbbq. Just like Saddam's Iraq in 1991.

Iran already has weapons capable of destroying Israel. They have stockpiles of chemical weapons. Israel is a small country. The threat of a nuclear Iran is not that they would use it on Israel, but that they would share the information and power with all Muslim nations around Israel. Iran's leaders are not stupid.
The future of Iran is unknown as is their leadership. The people do not make the decisions inside Iran. A group of men who elect themselves control Iran.

If an attack does happen in Iran, do not expect it to be a one headline event. Iran will retaliate and the world needs to be prepared for that. They will probably attack U.S forces inside Iraq by launching hundreds of missiles into the green zone. It would have been the U.S who attacked Iran by proxy or directly themselves.

The U.S cannot simply launch operation destroy Iran?s military either. If the U.S pulls a Israel-Southern Lebanon on Iran, then Iran will turn around and start attacking oil platforms and arming Iraqis with heavy weapons. The U.S is not capable of stopping Iran for doing this, unless the U.S wants to sign off on an invasion of the entire Western portion of Iran.

If the U.S didn?t invade Iraq, then the only target Iran would have had would be Israel. Unfortunately for the U.S we had to invade Iraq and now Iran has plenty of U.S targets to pick.
Hezbollah is not going to launch attacks at Israel for an attack against Iran. Hezbollah is a pro-Lebanese group. They are not Iran?s bitch. They are best friends with Iran, but it doesn?t mean they are going to risk their people for Iran. They might have done so prior to the Israel's bombing, but ever since that attack I do not think Hezbollah plans on getting bombed again. Hezbollah?s goal is not to destroy Israel. Their goal is to protect Lebanon from Israel. They are not going to die for Iran.
Therefore the only option Iran would have had was to launch Shahab-3 missiles at Israel. Israel supposedly has a great missile defense system so no worries.

Aimster, you seem quite knowledgable about the situation can you describe to me exactly what these weapon systems are? How likely is it that if Isreali attempted to destroy the nuclear facalities they would be successfull? How would Russia and China be involved in the situation?

 

[ProfJohn]

Aimster, I do not understand your thinking on this.

Israel attacks Iran, and Iran responds by attacking the largest military in the world? One which has 150,000 troops sitting in Iran and can put 5 carriers off your coast in a mater of weeks?

What does Iran have to gain by attacking us? The only thing they would be doing is giving us an excuse to beat the hell out of them and their military. Clinton in Kosovo and Bush 41 in Gulf War 1 showed that you can pretty much destroy a countries ability to wage war from the air. We don?t have to invade Iran to severely harm their military.

On top of that the Iranian leadership would be forced into hiding, unless they want a smart bomb dropped on their lap. Additionally, this might give the people in Iran who opposed their government the leverage they need to finally over throw the mullahs.

Finally, on top of all this an attack on American by Iran following an Israel air strike would help Bush by boosting his popularity and approval. American always rallies around the flag and President in situations like this.

Iran might respond by launching some missiles at Israel, but they would be foolish to drag us into this fight.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
If Israel starts this we could very well see the start of a large scale war.

How so? Who is Iran going to attack? They are not going to fly over Iraq and bomb Israel, our air defenses will see to that.

The only thing Iran can do is launch more terrorism against Israel or mess with the oil supply. The second option would be rather stupid based on the size of our force there in Iraq right now.

Iran has a quite large and capable army - unlike most of the middle east. Not to mention they've got support of most of the muslim population.

It'd really suck if Isreali started a war, the United States would undoublty be brought in.

The same thing was said about Iraq in 1991 and look how that turned out.

 

[Jhhnn]

The most amazing part of all of this is the acceptance of the idea that iran's nuclear program is geared towards weapons development, when there is no proof whatsoever in the accusation. According to the IAEA, they're in full compliance with the NPT that they signed, if not with the "additional protocols" which they never agreed to...

That's from IAEA inspectors onsite at the Iranian facilities.

And it's a bit disingenuous coming from a country that's had its own clandestine weapons program for decades, something they only recently admitted...

Hope all you young neocons are ready to be drafted, because any unprovoked attack on Iran, by either the US or the Israelis, will unleash an incredible shitstorm. Y'all ready for WW3, with the US and Israelis as the aggressors?

 

[tomywishbone]

If a rag-tag bunch of cab drivers & goat herders can stand toe-to-toe with the strongest war machine in the world, I'm pretty sure Iran would stomp the matzah balls out of Israel.

Edit: If Israel were to nuke Tehran, Moscow would vaporize Tel Aviv.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: tomywishbone
If a rag-tag bunch of cab drivers & goat herders can stand toe-to-toe with the strongest war machine in the world, I'm pretty sure Iran would stomp the matzah balls out of Israel.

Who in the hell are you talking about??

The most amazing part of all of this is the acceptance of the idea that iran's nuclear program is geared towards weapons development, when there is no proof whatsoever in the accusation. According to the IAEA, they're in full compliance with the NPT that they signed, if not with the "additional protocols" which they never agreed to...

That's from IAEA inspectors onsite at the Iranian facilities.

And it's a bit disingenuous coming from a country that's had its own clandestine weapons program for decades, something they only recently admitted...

Hope all you young neocons are ready to be drafted, because any unprovoked attack on Iran, by either the US or the Israelis, will unleash an incredible shitstorm. Y'all ready for WW3, with the US and Israelis as the aggressors?

Huh, looks like you are already refuting any sort of action against Iran. Last I checked the US wasn't even mentioned. You sure are uppity and anxious to bash conservativism.

-Kevin

 

[Aimster]

If Israel attacks Iran, the U.S helped. Israel is going to A) land in Iraq to refuel B) refuel over Iraq. Iraq is not going to allow this, but the U.S will.
The U.S also supplied Israel with the bunker buster bombs.

Same way Iran arms Hezbollah, U.S arms Israel. War by proxy.

Iran is not scared of the U.S. Why? They can fight the U.S inside Iraq. U.S cannot stop thousands of rocket launches at the green zone. They will also be unable to stop the flow of weapons into Iraq from Iran. These weapons will give the insurgency a major boost. Not to mention there will be thousands of Iranian fighters now inside Iraq. They will be highly trained in hit-in-run tactics.

The U.S will then be faced with three choices:
A) Fire at suspected missile plants inside Iran and weapons factories and fight the Iranians inside Iraq. It will be very similar to Israel-Hezbollah, however Iran is massive in size and their stockpiles of weapons is gigantic.
B) U.S will bomb power, water, and bridges inside Iran sending it into total chaos. Iran will retaliate by blocking the flow of oil in the Persian Gulf. Oil prices will go sky-high and the world will panic. All it takes is one suicide ship, one missile, a torpedo, one mine to go off and sink an oil ship.
C) Invade Iran, which would be disaster.

There is a major difference between Iraq and Iran. Iraqis wanted Saddam dead. They put their weapons down and stood there.
Iranians do not want their leaders dead. They hate their leaders like a lot of people hate Bush in the U.S. However, if you attack the U.S or if you attack Iran, the people of those nations will rally together to fight.

Attacking Iran?s nuclear sites will only strengthen the regime. Iranians want nuclear energy. They are not against nuclear energy.


It is important to realize Iran?s military is not made like Saddam?s military. Saddam?s military was an invasion military. Iran?s military is an invasion stopping military. Iran?s money is spent on small arms, and missiles. Iraq spent their money on tanks and aircraft. Iran?s tanks and aircraft pose no threat to anyone. Iran saw what the U.S did inside Iraq and outside. Iraq?s military was in the open for the U.S aircraft to attack. Iran?s military is going to be inside Iran hidden inside cities. The only way to take them out is to either bomb cities with millions of people or invade.

The days of head-to-head military battles are over.

 

[alchemize]

All the liberal fanboi cheerleaders for Iran crack me up. Iran could mess up oil prices, lob some medium range missiles, and send out the usual insane suicide bombers. Not much more.

 

[tomywishbone]

"Who in the hell are you talking about??"


Key:

Cab drivers & goat herders = Iraqi insurgents
Strongest war machine in the world = US military
Iran = Persia
Matzah balls = Some sort of soup
Israel = Israel

 

[Gamingphreek]

There is a major difference between Iraq and Iran. Iraqis wanted Saddam dead. They put their weapons down and stood there.
Iranians do not want their leaders dead. They hate their leaders like a lot of people hate Bush in the U.S. However, if you attack the U.S or if you attack Iran, the people of those nations will rally together to fight.

I think it is terribly inaccurate to lump Bush in with Hezbollah. I also think, Americans DISAPPROVE of Bush. However a very very small percentage wish to see him dead or actually hate him. He is a US leader who has done what he has felt was right. He isn't like Hezbollah or anything; he isn't condoning terrorism.

Aimster, though we disagree on many issues, you know far more about this issue than me. What do you feel WILL happen? And what do you feel SHOULD happen?

-Kevin

 

[jlmadyson]

Originally posted by: tomywishbone
If a rag-tag bunch of cab drivers & goat herders can stand toe-to-toe with the strongest war machine in the world, I'm pretty sure Iran would stomp the matzah balls out of Israel.

Edit: If Israel were to nuke Tehran, Moscow would vaporize Tel Aviv.

And then there would be no more Moscow. Kind of crazy how that works eh. This kind of scenario would without a doubt set the world ablaze.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: tomywishbone
"Who in the hell are you talking about??"


Key:

Cab drivers & goat herders = Iraqi insurgents
Strongest war machine in the world = US military
Iran = Persia
Matzah balls = Some sort of soup
Israel = Israel

Ok, if you have to make a key for someone to accurately understand it, you shouldn't do it -_-.

Regardless, the insurgents are most certainly not standing toe-to-toe with us. They are running, hiding, suicide bombing etc... That is not standing toe-to-toe.

Alone, yes Israel probably wouldn't win. However, you have to realize that Israel is allied with us, among other nations.

-Kevin

 

[Aimster]

Sorry if I typed what I was trying to say wrong.
My point was Bush's dislike/like level is the same as the Iranian leader?s dislike/like level.

People wanted Saddam dead. Nobody cared about Iraq when the U.S invaded. They wanted Saddam gone.

People dislike Bush and the Mullahs, but people do not wish them dead. If China invades the U.S, the people who hate Bush will fight for the U.S. If U.S invades Iran, the people will fight for Iran.
Nobody (well almost) wanted to fight for Iraq because they hated Iraq. They all wanted to see Saddam gone and shed blood trying in the past.

-
My Opinion:

Attack their nuclear sites and deal with the consequences. It will be a major war and the Democrats and Republicans need to stop fighting each other over this entire BS and actually realize the world is facing a potential future threat.
It will cost the U.S thousands of lives, but isn't that better than watching a millions of people in the Middle East die in the future at the hands of nuclear weapons?

Like I said before in my racist/bigot (whatever you want to call it) comments, Muslim nations should not have the means to develop nuclear weapons.

 

[Tab]

Interesting posts Aimster, but I have to ask. What would Russia and China do if something like this were to happen? Don't they have some kind of financial interest in Iran?

 

[Gamingphreek]

Attack their nuclear sites and deal with the consequences. It will be a major war and the Democrats and Republicans need to stop fighting each other over this entire BS and actually realize the world is facing a potential future threat.
It will cost the U.S thousands of lives, but isn't that better than watching a millions of people in the Middle East die in the future at the hands of nuclear weapons?

I have to say, that was well said and I agree!

I understand what you are saying when about Nuclear weapons and Muslims, but I think many of these nations give Islam as a whole a bad name. I definitely think, that there are certain countries, who, until we can fully trust them, should not have nuclear weapons. I am not saying I endorse your belief, but I can see where you are coming from.

-Kevin

 

[Jaskalas]

All I can say is good luck Israel, to do unto our killers what we are too cowardly to do ourselves.

Iran must never be allowed to complete their nuclear program as we allowed North Korea to do.

 

[Aimster]

Inside the nuclear reactor that is being built inside Iran, are 500 Russian technicians, engineers, etc.
If they are hurt, Russia will simply rethink their strategies next time they go and build something of this magnitude by possibly arming that nation with more advanced anti-aircraft weapons. They will not go to war with the U.S or Israel. Iran is not that important to Russia. Russia will demand an apology and condemn the attack but that is as far as that is going.

In a way Russia wants to defy the West, so they don?t easily give in to U.S pressure. Russia doesn?t like that they are no longer a superpower so they will usually go against what the U.S says politically and economically. Militarily Russia will not attack the U.S or Israel.

China has contracts with Iran for gas and oil. If Iran is attacked then obviously their exports will most likely halt. That will lead to a shortage for China and China will be forced to tap into a new supplier. This will raise the price of oil and gas in the world since the supply will be cut whereas the demand is the same.

China like Russia will not go to war for Iran.
Iran has no allies and is fighting this on their own.

 

[Jhhnn]

Please, Gamingphreak, the ties between the Israeli rightwing and the neocons are completely obvious, as are the ties to the fundie fringe. As for being "Allies"- cite the documentation for that claim. There isn't any, certainly not anything along the lines of Nato, for example...

Any attack by the Israelis will be viewed as a proxy attack by the US throughout the muslim world, and beyond. And that sentiment won't be far off the mark, if at all. Look at a map- figure out an attack route that won't cross US defended airspace...it doesn't exist, given that such coverage extends thru Turkey, Iraq, KSA and on out to Diego Garcia in the Indian ocean. We'd have to allow their planes to access Iran, which is basically the same thing as doing the deed ourselves...

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
All I can say is good luck Israel, to do unto our killers what we are too cowardly to do ourselves.

You never fail to show how abysmally shallow your understanding of the world is.

Iran must never be allowed to complete their nuclear program as we allowed North Korea to do.

Now that your fearless Jackass in Chief has squandered our military to the point where we couldn't do anything about Iran or North Korea if we had to, it's a bit hypocritical to piss and moan about how "cowardly" we are.

FWIW, if all Israel is doing is drawing up contingincy plans, nations do that all the time with no expectation of having to implement them. That includes the U.S. Considering the direct threats Iran has made publicly, planning on that level isn't unreasonable. I only looked at the article briefly, and I didn't see anything that suggested they were going to attack Iran.

Israel has lost a lot of its own credibility because their not so excellent adventure into Lebanon was so poorly planned and executed, and along with their lies, the Bushwhackos shafted us in Iraq for the exactly same reason, and sadly on a much larger, more deadly and more devastating scale. :frown:

 

[RichardE]

Israel is doing what it needs to do to survive. Iran should not be allowed to have Nuclear weapons. If the people of Iran want Nuclear power they should get rid of the extremists and get some pro-western leaders who will have the support of the majority of the nuclear powers in the world. Or even a leader who does not make death threats to entire nations as he sits there stating that his nuclear energy program is innocent in nature.

Sometimes, you need to step in and stop the person before he can go ahead and carry out his plans, be it destroying a people, or wiping a nation off the face of the earth. We learned this lessons once in the 1940's. Hopefully we learned our lesson than and can deal with this issue. Before it escalates.

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is not going to nuke Iran

many leaders inside Israel are Persian and thousands of persians live inside Israel

not to forget that Israel is not a barbaric twisted country.

The only saving grace is that Iran is much more advance with air defense today than Iraq in 1981.

Palestinians my have different opinion on Israel.

IMHO, Israel is using saber rattling method in hope that world leaders to back the US/Israel wanton embargo to cripple Iran. But doing so would strengthen the relationship between Iran & China/Russia.

 

[Infohawk]

It might not happen any time soon, but eventually there will be a nuclear exchange in the middle east. I see Israel getting nuked and nuking others. The genie is out of the bottle.

As someone above said, this is more of a reason for Iran to develop nukes. I like how some posters are upset that Iran has nukes. Israel should not have nukes either. The West has zero credibility when it asks Iran to not produce nukes but turns a blind eye to Israel. Unfortunately, Israel's best strategy right now is to develop it's nuclear deterrent, not to actually use them (see Cold War).