Israel goes out of its way to humiliate an important ally

[SamurAchzar]

So what you are basically saying is that Israel is dependant on US support and financial help?

During its most critical years (first 20), Israel did not receive any substantial (i.e. one to go on record) help from either the UK or the US. Israel did not have any US-made aircraft until the 70's.

While I'm sure the aid Israel got from the US helped it tremendously, I wouldn't go as far to suggest it wouldn't have existed without it.

Besides, without the enormous aid Israel has gotten throughout the years they would be picking olives with the rest of the Palestinians.

Again that is not correct, as Israel already had pretty well developed economy, all considered, before getting aid from the US.

Being thankful for what has been given doesn't men inferiority, it shows that you know who your friends are. Something the pride of the pack in Israel has a real problem with these days.

I'm the first to admit what was indeed received, but I can't say much for things that were never given, can I.

What *I* am saying is that that might cost more than what you think, not just monetary wise but also in other support. If the USA and the UK wouldn't veto sanctions there might be a problem for Israel.

Why do you keep putting UK and the USA on the same boat? Especially in recent 10 years, with the return of the radical left into Downing, Israel and the UK have been on pretty opposite sides of the map.

Look, you know me, i really don't want anything bad to happen to Israel and that is WHY i am saying this, nationalistic twats lick sams armchair can't ever admit that Israel can do wrong nor that they ever need any kind of outside support but we both know that is not true.

שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

My entire point was to say Israel is no more or less dependent on foreign aid than any other country you can list. The military aid Israel receives is nothing compared to what it costs the American tax payer to carry the entire NATO alliance on his back, not to mention deployments in Germany, Japan and South Korea. At least Israel is not protected by US soldiers.

Israelis should thank France for the first 20 years, and should be very very grateful towards the US for the 40 years after that - for various military, cultural, political and economical reasons - but I'd hardly portray it as a beggar country - and I'd certainly not try to suggest it's anywhere near the failed Arab countries surrounding it. See the Egyptian or Syrian GDP per capita compared to that of Israel. Are you suggesting that's because of any foreign aid to Israel?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

snip

Too much of a politician in you, deflect and reject while admitting that maybe perhaps at some point...

You're boring the living daylights out of me.

It was a simple enough question, a yes or no would work just fine, i'm fully aware of how the creation of Israel happened and the supporters (but every single fucking one forgets that it wasn't just France that supported Israel, the UK DID provide workforce and technical knowledge along with protection but i guess that wasn't worth anything)...

The point is, without the support there wouldn't be an Israeli state and without the US extreme support throughout many years both politically, economically and defense wise there wouldn't have been an Israel today.

So watch where you step, Israel was made, piss on everyone that has supported you enough and it will be unmade.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Too much of a politician in you, deflect and reject while admitting that maybe perhaps at some point...

You're boring the living daylights out of me.

Easy enough for you to spew clean-cut, decisive nonsense - it's not like you need to depend on facts or anything. Reality is pretty simple when its exclusively yours.

 

[Dari]

JohnofSheffield, how do you find time to argue with Americans on an internet forum, fight the Taliban, and sleep? I keep reading that the Taliban is taking more territory every day. Aren't you like 10 hours ahead? Sometimes being a moderator has its privileges (seeing IP and all)...

 

[Oric]

Your Ally speaking :

It is not Turkey's God given command to defend Israel and its attrocities to Palestenians like we have done in the past 50 years. That is enough. Israel thinks it can get away with anything it does in the region. No more !

For those who claim that Turkey has fallen for Islamists. Bullshit ! Turkey is very actively seeking to integrate with European Union but some EU countries like France are doing everyting to slow down the process. The current goverment of Turkey is liberal and human rights oriented and the foreign policy has changed from "deny everything and defend the borders at any cost" to "be good neighbours, apologize if necessary". These neighbours naturally include Iraq, Syria and Iran as well. Having a better relation with a country does not make you an ideology accepter of that country. There are new approaches to Armenians, Kurds and this has happened as short as 7 year time period. I think Israel has a lot to learn from Turkey in this respect.

 

[werepossum]

Technology, processed diamonds and weapon systems (10% of the world trading volume according to Wikipedia) are the Israeli exports. About $26bn in 2006, that's the latest I found. Warren Buffet's first ever acquisition outside the USA was of an Israeli company, and both Microsoft and Intel had their very first foreign R&D centers opened in Israel. Every self respecting American venture capital fund has offices in Israel - look at www.sequoiacap.com as an example.



Maybe in terms of politics, but neither UK or US did shit for Israel in its early years, and specifically UK did nothig for Israel up to this day.



For a second homeland, you sure have no clue about it.



It was France, not UK and not US, who helped Israel up until it set its own embargo in 1967.

Now I'm sure Israel would love to repay US for all that generous help, right after UK returns what it receives during WWII, in inflation adjusted dollars, eh.

I think the UK repaid every outright loan we made her, ending in the 60s. The UK has also been an excellent ally to the USA since WW2 - actually since WW1. We spent a lot of blood and treasure keeping Europe safe for democracy, but in the UK's case it was well worth it.

If memory serves, Intel's Pentium Pro and Core 2 designs both came from its Haifa design studio, designed by Jews I would imagine. Let's all take a moment to contemplate all the wonderful things we've gotten from Muslim and/or Arab ingenuity (exclusive of those expatriates in Western nations, who have contributed as much man-for-man as any other nationality or religion.)

Sandorski, I'm only making an observation, not declaring defeat. I have neither intent nor right to fight to keep Turkey a Western-leaning secular country, since it has not harmed the USA nor asked for its help. If Turkey wishes to democratically become another Islamic theocracy - which it appears might be the case - it has in my opinion every right to do so. That does NOT obligate me to consider an Islamic Turkey as equal to a secular Turkey, however.

 

[ZzZGuy]

My take, with what Turkey has said and done in the past few years they don't have the high ground nor can they be outraged over this and be taken seriously at the same time. Israel from the start was being childish and displaying their usual total lack of PR sense, with the apology they look like a bunch of idiots.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Your Ally speaking :

It is not Turkey's God given command to defend Israel and its attrocities to Palestenians like we have done in the past 50 years. That is enough. Israel thinks it can get away with anything it does in the region. No more !

For those who claim that Turkey has fallen for Islamists. Bullshit ! Turkey is very actively seeking to integrate with European Union but some EU countries like France are doing everyting to slow down the process. The current goverment of Turkey is liberal and human rights oriented and the foreign policy has changed from "deny everything and defend the borders at any cost" to "be good neighbours, apologize if necessary". These neighbours naturally include Iraq, Syria and Iran as well. Having a better relation with a country does not make you an ideology accepter of that country. There are new approaches to Armenians, Kurds and this has happened as short as 7 year time period. I think Israel has a lot to learn from Turkey in this respect.

Well, it certainly won't be the Turks who stop Israel, nor do they have any moral ground to advise Israel on how to deal with in-content neighbours. As it stands, Turkey has alot more to lose than Israel over that fiasco.
After Turkey realized it will not be admitted to the EU, it began to look for other friends, throwing its old friend into the water while doing that.

 

[Dari]

Well, it certainly won't be the Turks who stop Israel, nor do they have any moral ground to advise Israel on how to deal with in-content neighbours. As it stands, Turkey has alot more to lose than Israel over that fiasco.
After Turkey realized it will not be admitted to the EU, it began to look for other friends, throwing its old friend into the water while doing that.

Can you blame them? Some of the most important countries in the EU do not want them in the EU. Fuck them, they say, and try to foster stronger relations with their neighbors. So far, that seems to be working out very well for them. Their economy is hot and their companies are picking up contracts everywhere in the Middle East. More importantly, they are liked by everyone there, from the Iranians to the Egyptians. Even the Iraqis have come to terms with them.

 

[werepossum]

Can you blame them? Some of the most important countries in the EU do not want them in the EU. Fuck them, they say, and try to foster stronger relations with their neighbors. So far, that seems to be working out very well for them. Their economy is hot and their companies are picking up contracts everywhere in the Middle East. More importantly, they are liked by everyone there, from the Iranians to the Egyptians. Even the Iraqis have come to terms with them.

True. Makes you wonder if things would be different had Turkey been admitted to the EU when it should have been, or if nothing would have changed, France is that far-sighted, and America was just wrong all along. Maybe if Turkey had been accepted as an equal partner it wouldn't have become more Islamic.

 

[Dari]

The Israeli PM apologizes. This should be water under the bridge.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8458085.stm

 

[SamurAchzar]

True. Makes you wonder if things would be different had Turkey been admitted to the EU when it should have been, or if nothing would have changed, France is that far-sighted, and America was just wrong all along. Maybe if Turkey had been accepted as an equal partner it wouldn't have become more Islamic.

Admitting Turkey to the EU is like US uniting with Mexico. Same situation, same effects. Europeans had the brains to draw the line (a few failed countries too late, admittedly).

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

JohnofSheffield, how do you find time to argue with Americans on an internet forum, fight the Taliban, and sleep? I keep reading that the Taliban is taking more territory every day. Aren't you like 10 hours ahead? Sometimes being a moderator has its privileges (seeing IP and all)...

I'm SAS, we don't do daily missions, i'll be gone for a months at a time or a couple of weeks at a time but other than that, i'm just sitting on my arse awaiting orders.

This is not a hot zone, it has not been one since 02.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I think the UK repaid every outright loan we made her, ending in the 60s. The UK has also been an excellent ally to the USA since WW2 - actually since WW1. We spent a lot of blood and treasure keeping Europe safe for democracy, but in the UK's case it was well worth it.

Really? When?

Not WW1 and definently not WW2.

Roosevelt said that you wouldn't get involved in Europes war one week before you were declared war upon and attacked. Don't think you saved Europe, you had no choice, you were under attack.

Do i think that the US and the UK have many good battles in common, yes, do i think that the US has EVER fought a war for UK's sake or for any other nations sake? Absolutely not.

 

[Oric]

Admitting Turkey to the EU is like US uniting with Mexico. Same situation, same effects. Europeans had the brains to draw the line (a few failed countries too late, admittedly).

No it is not like that. Would you unite with Mexico if they were as rich per capita as US ? Probably because you are afraid of an influx of Mexican immigrants which would not happen in that case. That is not the same with Europe. Turkey has already a higher GDP than most admitted countries (at their time of admission) and the problem is said to be religion not economy. Even at a 320 Million to 70 million mix some Europeans don't want to a country with overwhelming Muslim population. Well, we are trying to make this country comply to every EU standart from milk to courthouses and this is a multi decade project. It is their loss if in the end Turkey becomes a regional power and don't join EU. Turkey, not joining the EU and being a regional power pisses of Israel because trade and other relations with Middle East countries have boomed as some poster has stated. I, myself have been going to Middle East almost every month now becuase there is so much new business to grow on.

Latest news : Israel has apologised ... Smart move

 

[JEDIYoda]

No it is not like that. Would you unite with Mexico if they were as rich per capita as US ? Probably because you are afraid of an influx of Mexican immigrants which would not happen in that case. That is not the same with Europe. Turkey has already a higher GDP than most admitted countries (at their time of admission) and the problem is said to be religion not economy. Even at a 320 Million to 70 million mix some Europeans don't want to a country with overwhelming Muslim population. Well, we are trying to make this country comply to every EU standart from milk to courthouses and this is a multi decade project. It is their loss if in the end Turkey becomes a regional power and don't join EU. Turkey, not joining the EU and being a regional power pisses of Israel because trade and other relations with Middle East countries have boomed as some poster has stated. I, myself have been going to Middle East almost every month now becuase there is so much new business to grow on.

Latest news : Israel has apologised ... Smart move

Why smart move?? It did not matter one way or the other...

 

[Zebo]

The whole problem with religion is the "My way or the highway" belief system. Creates conflict and worse they think they are doing gods work promoting it or killing in the name of it so their human conscious is in suspended animation.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

The whole problem with religion is the "My way or the highway" belief system. Creates conflict and worse they think they are doing gods work promoting it or killing in the name of it so their human conscious is in suspended animation.

On this we can agree in full.

Religion is the root of almost all evil in that region and in most other places too.