Israel getting what it deserves

Slovin8

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Sep 11, 2000
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From MSNBC:

FIFTY PERCENT or more of the foreign artists have canceled,? said Mehta, music director of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra. In the current production of Richard Strauss?s opera ?Salome,? he said, ?we?ve had eight cancellations in the cast.?

The orchestra announced today that it was forced to cancel an eight-concert tour in the United States next month because no insurance company would cover the performances due to concerns about possible terrorist attacks, said a spokeswoman for the orchestra, Dalia Meroz.
?They think our orchestra is a target for terrorism,? Meroz said.

MEGA-STARS ARE SCARCE
Israel also used to be a regular stop on the pop music circuit, hosting the likes of Madonna, Eric Clapton, R.E.M. and Santana. But it has been more than a year since a mega-star played here. In some cases, Israeli artists have been disinvited from playing abroad. And the Tel Aviv film festival was canceled this year because the organizers feared no stars would come.
The problem goes beyond the arts. In March, the European football federation suspended soccer matches in Israel, citing security concerns. Israeli home games are scheduled to be played in Cyprus.
Influential academics, angry at the Israeli government?s actions against Palestinians, are pushing a boycott of Israel that hundreds of university professors have joined. And on the economic front, some Norwegian supermarkets label Israeli products with stickers so customers can decide whether to buy them.
?Israel is not the flavor of the month, that?s for sure,? Mehta said. ?The world is turning against it.?
While there is little evidence of an internationally coordinated anti-Israel boycott of the sort aimed at South Africa in the 1980s, a sense of isolation is taking hold here, along with a concern that Israel is being shunned, dealing a blow to its national psyche and its decades-long drive for acceptance.

?IT?S AN OBSESSION?
?Israel has always wanted to be integrated. It?s an obsession,? said Calev Ben-David, managing editor of the Jerusalem Post, who complained that ?even the traditional supporters of Israel are not coming? these days.
?Never since the worst days of the Lebanon war has Israel felt so alone and isolated,? he said, referring to the Israeli invasion of its northern neighbor in 1982. ?We?re not looking just for integration anymore. We?re looking for any sign of solidarity and acceptance we can get. We really need a boost. We?d give the Palestinians a state if Bruce Springsteen would come.?


Many artists have canceled appearances because of concerns about Palestinian suicide bombers who have attacked buses, hotels, restaurants and nightclubs. There is also a growing fear here and abroad of a large terrorist attack like those in New York and at the Pentagon on Sept. 11.
But many Israelis say that while security concerns are almost always the sole reason given for the cancellations, they believe many people are not coming because they oppose Israel?s actions in the conflict with Palestinians but do not want to say so publicly.
?During the wars, there were always cancellations for reasons of personal security, but this time it?s a very different story,? said a Hebrew University philosopher and political scientist, Yaron Ezrahi.
?There is a moral issue about coming to [Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon?s Israel when it is engaged in actions which appear to be excessive,? he said. ?This excommunication only reinforces the idea that the whole world is against us because we?re Jews.?
Such was the case last month at the Israel Festival, one of the country?s biggest cultural events. Three groups ? a dance troupe from Belgium and orchestras from Germany and Italy ? canceled at the last moment.


GERMANY, ITALY HAVE CONCERNS
The groups from Germany and Italy cited security concerns. But the Belgian group ? a 34-member troupe called Rwanda ?94 that stages performances about the massacre of more than a half million ethnic Tutsis ? said its reasons were overridingly political.
?There was genocide of the Jews, then there was genocide in Rwanda, and now Israel is trying to get rid of the Palestinians,? said the group?s music director, Gareth List, explaining that most of the people in his troupe ?oppose the way Palestinians have been treated for the last 54 years.?
Similar concerns prompted more than 200 painters, photographers, poets and other artists to endorse an Internet petition calling on their peers to ?cancel all exhibitions and other cultural events that are scheduled to occur in Israel? because ?the art world must speak out against the current Israeli war crimes and atrocities.?

Many people, however, are genuinely concerned about their safety, event organizers said. Others cite personal or professional conflicts or medical excuses, which organizers said they sometimes read as a tip-off that the real problem is political.
?Nobody says it openly,? Mehta said. ?At the moment they say, ?Look, my family just won?t let me go.? That?s usually what they do.?
But the security concerns are real, he said, and apparently have played a role in the decision of many stars not to come.

?I say, ?I?m going, and I cannot force you,? ? said Mehta, 66, the former director of the Los Angeles and New York philharmonics, who spends about nine weeks a year in Israel. ?I cannot guarantee them 100 percent safety. My mother sits in Los Angeles and is shaking every day. If I don?t call twice a day, she?s nervous.?
?My parents, my uncle in Kalamazoo, my good friends all along kept saying they wished I would cancel,? said Susan Anthony, an up-and-coming American soprano who took over the title roll in ?Salome? when opera great Jane Eaglen canceled for security reasons. ?There was a bombing less than a mile from my hotel three days ago, and the cast was on the phone with each other ? turn on CNN! ? and then the families try to get through to make sure you?re not down there.?

NO BIG STARS
Lia van Leer, founder and director of the Jerusalem Film Festival, said her event typically draws as many as 200 foreign actors, directors and other film industry people, but this year attracted only about 60, and no one of the stature of such past attendees as Robert De Niro, Warren Beatty, Jane Fonda and Kirk Douglas.
?It?s awkward. They have another agenda, they?re starting another film, they have a vacation scheduled ? and I can?t blame them,? she said. But for the most part, ?it?s not a boycott for political reasons, it?s only a boycott because people are afraid to come here.?
The Tel Aviv Museum of Art, which hosts chamber music performances, had so many cancellations by foreigners this year that it recently decided to book only local artists for its next concert season. And the Tel Aviv film festival, which was canceled this year for the same reason, has been postponed indefinitely, said Edna Fainaru, the festival?s founder.
The pop music scene has been particularly hard-hit, said the Jerusalem Post?s Ben-David, who has covered the arts scene in Israel for more than 10 years.
?Rock stars who live totally on the edge are afraid to come here,? he said. At the same time, ?the rock community tends to veer toward a left, politically correct line, and to some degree it has become politically impossible in that community? to perform in Israel.
?Before, any big band coming from the U.S. to Europe would drop by Israel. That?s over,? said Shuki Weiss, a top concert producer who brought David Bowie, Bob Dylan and other top acts to Israel.

?SET US BACK SIX YEARS?
?The general idea for the last 20 years was to put Israel on the map, and with all modesty, we succeeded very well,? he said. ?But now, when you see all the familiar big names going to Europe or on world tour and you are not considered, it?s a strange feeling of isolation. It?s set us back six years.?
Not only are international artists shunning Israel. In a few cases, Israeli artists have been disinvited from performing abroad, including in Europe and the United States ? once again, usually because of security.
Chava Alberstein, an Israeli folk singer, and singer-songwriter David Daor were asked not to perform at European concerts this year, their agents said.
?Those who canceled did not make anti-Semitic remarks. It was mainly a security thing,? said Pazit Daor, David Daor?s wife and manager. ?In Detroit, they were scared they would need to protect the whole place.?


heh, add to that the increasing unemployment rate, and over $250 billion of debt.

But why should they worry? As long as my and your tax dollars are pumped to insure that Sharon (i.e. The Man Of Peace[tm]) never runs low on 1-ton laser guided bombs. :disgust:
 

aphex

Moderator<br>All Things Apple
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rolleye.gif
 

Slovin8

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Sep 11, 2000
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me wonders if you got the majority of your post count by posting smilies without any real content what so ever.

Keep up the good work.
 
May 31, 2001
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me wonders what it is with all of these low use accounts registered in September 2000 popping up lately only to Post anti-semitic stuff.
 

Slovin8

Member
Sep 11, 2000
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What anit-semetic stuff?

This aritcle was quoted from MSNBC.

Since when being anti-sharon and anti-Israel military occupation and ethnic cleansing (Man of Peace) is anti-semitic?

You probably don't know what semite is in the first place.

Get over this old trick, anyone that dissagrees with Israel policies is called anti-semetic and dragged through the dirt. You're anti-semitic more than your realize.
 

aphex

Moderator<br>All Things Apple
Moderator
Jul 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: Slovin8
me wonders if you got the majority of your post count by posting smilies without any real content what so ever.

Keep up the good work.

Think what you may, that i have never posted anything of substance. I decided to post a
rolleye.gif
because i thought it accurately summed up my feelings on this topic. Why use words when none are needed? :)
 

Slovin8

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Sep 11, 2000
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This is from Haaretz Daily, one of the most popular Israeli newspaper, and they surely can be safely labled as "anti-semitic" and dragged through the dirt as well ;)

Minister's aide calls Hebron riots a 'pogrom'

By Amos Harel and Jonathan Lis




Col. (res.) Moshe Givati, an adviser on settlement security for Public Security Minister Uzi Landau, yesterday termed the rioting that took place during the funeral of Elazar Leibowitz, "a pogrom against the Arabs of Hebron, with no provocation on the Palestinian side."

Givati, who attended the funeral on Sunday, said he witnessed "brutal acts" and rejected absolutely explanations by the Jewish Community of Hebron Council spokesmen who said they were acting in self-defense against Palestinian stone-throwing.

Givati, who was commander of the Hebron brigade during the first intifada, has good relations with the settlement movement leadership. He was appointed six months ago by Landau to help smooth relations between the police and the settlement community. Most of his efforts are in Hebron, where relations between the police and the settlers are particularly strained.

Givati was in Hebron on Saturday night, in advance of the funeral for Leibowitz, an army first sergeant killed in a Palestinian ambush on Friday outside the city. The violence began already on Saturday night, he says, when a group of Jewish youths invaded a Palestinian house in the city, and burned and vandalized the possessions inside. Police and Border Patrol called to the scene arrested three of the youths, who included Leibowitz's brothers. They were released a few hours later.

Givati says the police and army deployed properly for the funeral, but at the request of the settlers, the police maintained a low profile, letting the other security forces - Israel Defense Forces troops - provide security for the funeral procession.

The violence began after the takeover of the podium where eulogies were being given in the garden outside the Tomb of the Patriarchs by a group of youths, many of them friends of the Hebron-born Leibowitz. They began calling for revenge.

"At most, and I even doubt that, a small rock was thrown from the direction of the Palestinian houses. And that was enough. It was the signal for the thugs to charge," Givati said.

He said that "the Palestinians did not throw any rocks or boulders at the funeral procession. There were 20 or 30 people, who were mostly not from Hebron," he said. He said he suspects most are from the outposts in the area of Itamar and Yitzhar. "For some reason they were all carrying army-issue weapons, and they charged into the Palestinian houses.

"That's when the fracas began. I saw everything from very close range. There were long bursts of fire by the Israelis - into the air and at the houses."

It was during that fire that 14-year-old Nibin Jamjum was killed by a bullet to her head, and a Palestinian boy was stabbed. IDF sources say that these two and the other wounded - 15 Palestinians in all were reported wounded, and an equal number of police were hurt - were casualties of the Jewish violence. "Dozens of thugs, including youths from Hebron, burst into Arab houses for no reason. They broke windows, destoryed property and threw stones. These people were there for the purpose of making a pogrom," said Givati.


Soldiers, police and Border Patrol troops who arrived on the scene tried to arrest the rioters, but were attacked. "Police officers were beaten," Givati said. "I am an alumnus of the first intifada and I never saw anything like this. A dozen thugs knocked down a policeman and kicked at him."

The police arrested some of the rioters, but the police car carrying them out was blocked by their friends, who damaged the police car. Boys and girls from Hebron kept up a stream of curses at the soldiers. They were called "Amalek's soldiers," and warned, "you're next."

Givati believes the police and army "were too restrained. Considering the events, much more force should have been used. We cannot allow such harm to the rule of law. It's inconceivable that soldiers and police be cursed that way." He said that settlement leaders from outside the Hebron area were also shocked by the level of violence displayed by the settlers in Hebron.

heheh, I laugh at those "innocent" settlers.
 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve
me wonders what it is with all of these low use accounts registered in September 2000 popping up lately only to Post anti-semitic stuff.

I am wondering what you found to be anti-semitic about his post? Anti-Sharon maybe... It is so easy to scream ANTI-SEMITIC or NAZI when someone critizises Israel, that way you do not have to have a point...

I think the world has to wake up and see that one horrible action does not justify another... it is an ugly war and both sides have comitted horrible crimes agains civilians...
 

kazeakuma

Golden Member
Feb 13, 2001
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I'll probably get flamed just for replying to this thread but I don't care.

I hold nothing against Israelis. They're people like the rest of us, but their actions have been somewhat questionable I guess. This may be a much needed wake up call.

?There is a moral issue about coming to [Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon?s Israel when it is engaged in actions which appear to be excessive,? he said. ?This excommunication only reinforces the idea that the whole world is against us because we?re Jews.

Nothing annoyed me more than that remark. When will they realise that most people (western world) don't care WHAT nationality/religion they are. Or anyone else for that matter. They bring alot on themselves by automatically accusing people of hating Jews if they speak against them. Grow up. There are other reasons people don't like you, ignorant child of the world.
 
May 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: Slovin8
What anit-semetic stuff?

This aritcle was quoted from MSNBC.

Since when being anti-sharon and anti-Israel military occupation and ethnic cleansing (Man of Peace) is anti-semitic?

Your title says ISRAEL is getting what it deserves. Not Sharon, not occupying troops, etc.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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If you can't argue the issue you attack the source. Israel's greatest and best informed critics are Jews.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
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Your title says ISRAEL is getting what it deserves. Not Sharon, not occupying troops, etc.
___________________________

I could have sworn that it was Israel that elected Sharon.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Slovin8

heheh, I laugh at those "innocent" settlers.

I presume you totally ignored the pictures of Israeli soldiers blocking settlers trying to get into Palestinian territory?
Dumb question, of course you did.
 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
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um ok. perhaps the jews have enough talent as is:p they've created artists like itzhak perlman, berstien, issack stern etc:p

go shovel ur cr@p somewhere else. perhaps its percieved as dangerous to go to israel because fanatical palestinians suicide bomb civilians. i wouldn't want to go perform there either because of those freakish terrorists.



heheh, I laugh at those "innocent" settlers.



perhaps you should laugh when "innocent" palestinians get what they deserve too then eh?

 

kazeakuma

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Feb 13, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Your title says ISRAEL is getting what it deserves. Not Sharon, not occupying troops, etc.
___________________________

I could have sworn that it was Israel that elected Sharon.

It's still an unfortunate title, however it's still accurate. Israel elected Sharon, and the head of state is representative of his voting body.
 
May 31, 2001
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So when Israel retaliates due to suicide bombers, etc., then the Palestinians are getting what they deserve since they chose Arafat as their leader, right?
rolleye.gif
 

Slovin8

Member
Sep 11, 2000
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I presume you totally ignored the pictures of Israeli soldiers blocking settlers trying to get into Palestinian territory?
Dumb question, of course you did.

hehehe, this is funny, for two reasons:
1) The settlers are ALREADY in Palestinian territory, otherwise, they wouldn't be settlers.
2) I never mentioned anything about the role of Israeli soldiers in "trying" to stop the settlers, I'm talking about the settlers which, in the US at least, are always perceived to be innocent civilians, while this incident proves they stand as the same moral ground as Hamas. A bunch of wacko religous and militia freaks.

 

kazeakuma

Golden Member
Feb 13, 2001
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Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve
So when Israel retaliates due to suicide bombers, etc., then the Palestinians are getting what they deserve since they chose Arafat as their leader, right?
rolleye.gif

Like I said, stupid title and it should be changed. But neither side is right and both are very very wrong.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Gosh, Nefrodite, I thought that's what the article said.

Accurate but unfortunate? Interesting. How far do you want to carry such a claim. 'Afafat has supported terrorism.' Oh geez don't say that. It's accurate but unfortunate. A lot of things are unfortunate. Lets not look at them?
 

kazeakuma

Golden Member
Feb 13, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Gosh, Nefrodite, I thought that's what the article said.

Accurate but unfortunate? Interesting. How far do you want to carry such a claim. 'Afafat has supported terrorism.' Oh geez don't say that. It's accurate but unfortunate. A lot of things are unfortunate. Lets not look at them?

Don't take offense. I didn't. I merely said that because a lot of people WILL. No use in starting a flame fest here, I was hoping for a decent discussion and that title DOES NOT help.
 

Slovin8

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Sep 11, 2000
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So when Israel retaliates due to suicide bombers, etc., then the Palestinians are getting what they deserve since they chose Arafat as their leader, right?

Yes, and when Israel military bombs civilians, on Sharon orders, to get one man and killing 9 children in the process, they are no different than Hamas, not a bit.

There has been no disputed about that, even the White House said it was a delibrate attack where it was certain that civilian casualities will occur. And we of course know the response of the whole world.

If Israel chooses to act like Hamas, it should be treated as such.
 

alphatarget1

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Dec 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve
me wonders what it is with all of these low use accounts registered in September 2000 popping up lately only to Post anti-semitic stuff.

it's not anti-semitic, where did you get that from? ohhhh whenever ANYONE says ANYTHING bad about Israel it has to be anti-semitic. GET OVER IT.
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
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This is what worries me right here:
when a group of Jewish youths invaded a Palestinian house in the city, and burned and vandalized the possessions inside
A whole generation of kids(on both sides IMO) taught to hate the other. While this may be the action of a "small minority", with everything going on, I very well expect that if I were a youth, I'd hate the other side with all my guts too.