Israel eases Gaza blockade, enough or not?

[Lemon law]

It was rather obvious that Israel's blockade of Gaza was both counter productive and its regulations were totally illogical. As a result, it was almost guaranteed that Israel's blockade would be challenged. And when the initial big challenge hit the world press on 5/31/10 it became a PR nightmare for Israel.

Rather than Israel admit it screwed up, the Israeli position seems to be to show its strength by changing Gaza blockade policy on its own terms. And now, 6/17/2010, Israel announces its own policy changes regarding its blockade of Gaza.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/world/middleeast/18mideast.html?ref=middleeast

From my own viewpoint, its certainly slightly better than before, but its not my opinion that matters. The real question is will this defuse the Gaza crisis, or will the larger world now redouble its efforts to challenge the Israeli blockade? As somewhat of a is the glass one eighths full or is it still almost totally Israeli lack of humanity empty.

The other thing to maybe note is that until today, the ball was on the Israeli side of the net, and the larger world waited to give Israel a reasonable time to hit it back to the rest of the world's side of the net.

But now that its on the rest of the world's side of the net, its time to see if this goes over like a lead balloon or not.

In my mind, we can only wait and see how events move.

 

[Genx87]

It wont matter. Hamas and their apologists wont be happy until Israel completely drops the blockade and weapons flow free into the strip again.

But what will their answer be when missiles reign down on Israel from Gaza? I am sure silence.

 

[dahunan]

Why don't we ever get to see all the images of Israel slowly stealing whole neighborhoods from the area and putting up huge huge fences dividing the land they keep stealing

The first time an Israel Bulldozer came in and meted out punishment on my neighbor for his/her childs crimes... and it harmed or killed one of my family members.. I would do the same

 

[Atreus21]

It was rather obvious that Israel's blockade of Gaza was both counter productive and its regulations were totally illogical. As a result, it was almost guaranteed that Israel's blockade would be challenged. And when the initial big challenge hit the world press on 5/31/10 it became a PR nightmare for Israel.

Rather than Israel admit it screwed up, the Israeli position seems to be to show its strength by changing Gaza blockade policy on its own terms. And now, 6/17/2010, Israel announces its own policy changes regarding its blockade of Gaza.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/world/middleeast/18mideast.html?ref=middleeast

From my own viewpoint, its certainly slightly better than before, but its not my opinion that matters. The real question is will this defuse the Gaza crisis, or will the larger world now redouble its efforts to challenge the Israeli blockade? As somewhat of a is the glass one eighths full or is it still almost totally Israeli lack of humanity empty.

The other thing to maybe note is that until today, the ball was on the Israeli side of the net, and the larger world waited to give Israel a reasonable time to hit it back to the rest of the world's side of the net.

But now that its on the rest of the world's side of the net, its time to see if this goes over like a lead balloon or not.

In my mind, we can only wait and see how events move.

If history is at all trustworthy, we can be sure that when Israel lets up the pressure at all, its opponents 1.) trumpet it as a victory over Israel, and 2.) encouraged by the victory, renew its attacks.

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe GenX put his finger on it by asking, " But what will their answer be when missiles reign down on Israel from Gaza?"

So I ask, what happens if the missiles don't rain down?

After all, everyone knows, including Hamas and Fatah, that the Palestinian missiles are totally ineffective against Israeli military hegemony. More small annoyances to Israel than anything at all effective.

Yet when the world community did nothing to help the Palestinians, those missiles were needed to show the larger world that the Palestinian people and their plight was engaged in a struggle. Especially when surrounding larger Arab were to afraid to challenge Israel in any military way. As an occupied people, the missiles and the suicide bombers at least kept the Palestinians as something of a distant blip on the world radar screen.

But now that the Palestinian plight in Gaza is a huge blip on the world radar screen, Hamas will likely put its best foot forward and let Israel be the jack booted thugs with no reason to be brutal by clamping down on their rocket attacks on Israel.

And to some extent that seems to be already happening, not only with Hamas, but with Hezbollah as well.

 

[senseamp]

Not enough. Need to lift all restrictions on civilian goods like construction materials.
They are allowing building materials only for projects under international supervision. Unless UN is going to supervise rebuilding of every building in Gaza damaged during Cast Lead, that is not enough.
Also, they are still maintaining restrictions on commercial food transactions, which is designed to harm Gazan civilian economy. Unacceptable. Anything short of complete lifting of blockade on civilian goods and focusing it exclusively on weapons is not enough.

 

[Sinsear]

Israel should just carpet bomb Gaza. There needs to be some sort of final solution figured out to this palestinian problem.

 

[Genx87]

Maybe GenX put his finger on it by asking, " But what will their answer be when missiles reign down on Israel from Gaza?"

So I ask, what happens if the missiles don't rain down?

After all, everyone knows, including Hamas and Fatah, that the Palestinian missiles are totally ineffective against Israeli military hegemony. More small annoyances to Israel than anything at all effective.

Yet when the world community did nothing to help the Palestinians, those missiles were needed to show the larger world that the Palestinian people and their plight was engaged in a struggle. Especially when surrounding larger Arab were to afraid to challenge Israel in any military way. As an occupied people, the missiles and the suicide bombers at least kept the Palestinians as something of a distant blip on the world radar screen.

But now that the Palestinian plight in Gaza is a huge blip on the world radar screen, Hamas will likely put its best foot forward and let Israel be the jack booted thugs with no reason to be brutal by clamping down on their rocket attacks on Israel.

And to some extent that seems to be already happening, not only with Hamas, but with Hezbollah as well.

That would be awesome and all. Honestly, but dont expect it to happen.

 

[PokerGuy]

Keeping weapons out can be justified, but anything beyond that is simply a human rights abuse IMO.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Keeping weapons out can be justified, but anything beyond that is simply a human rights abuse IMO.

If an item can be used to support a weapon system; is that valid to be excluded?

 

[Lemon law]

If an item can be used to support a weapon system; is that valid to be excluded?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, but therein lies the rub, anything can be part of a weapons system, especially chocolate.

 

[PJABBER]

It was rather obvious that Israel's blockade of Gaza was both counter productive and its regulations were totally illogical. As a result, it was almost guaranteed that Israel's blockade would be challenged. And when the initial big challenge hit the world press on 5/31/10 it became a PR nightmare for Israel.

Gee, the blockade by Egypt and Israel is not a new thing, being three years old this month. That is a long time to consider a challenge...

Wiki is your friend...

The Gaza Strip has been blockaded by Israel and Egypt since June 2007, when Hamas formed the Palestinian government of March 2007 after the 2006 Palestinian legislative election, and then took control of the Gaza Strip in the course of the Battle of Gaza (2007)[1] by seizing government institutions and replacing Fatah and other government officials with its own.[2] It immediately followed the 2006-2007 economic sanctions against the Palestinian National Authority following the 2006 Palestinian legislative election.

The blockade designed to halt the flow of weapons into the Gaza Strip worked. There are relatively few missiles being shot against Israeli schools and Fatah Palestinians simply because the Hamas don't have ready access to them or the supplies to build their own.

The blockade to encourage a regime change and an uprising against the fanatical Hamas did not. As we have seen, the endless flow of humanitarian aid, everything apparently but chocolate and coriander, did not inconvenience the Gaza residents enough to rise up against the guys with the guns. Gaza willingness to turn against Hamas authoritah is questionable.

But, then again, the population did not rise against the Hamas when they lay their fellow Palestinians on the ground in neat little rows and wasted more than one bullet in executing them. Obviously, small arms ammo was not in short supply at that time.

Or maybe this is just an example of how education works in Gaza.

The only thing that makes this series of challenges to the Israeli blockade of Hamas in Gaza important is that it is waking up the world to the rise of a more radical Islamic government in Turkey.

Turkey has constitutionally been a secular State because of the diversity of faiths to be found there and because Turkish leadership years back saw the dangers of fundamental Islam. The military is constitutionally required to intervene if the government turns toward radical Islam and they have intervened previously. So far, this time, they have not.

The perceived weakness of the Obama administration and the lack of it's commitment to Israel's defense has emboldened Iran. They have several ships manned by Iranian "legislators" and "medical" staff that are bound for Gaza. The Iranian intent is to establish a direct funnel from Iran to the Gaza docks to transship weaponry under the guise of a permanent port presence without interference from Israel or any other party.

As Iran has declared war against Israel, Israel has responded by declaring that it will not consider these vessels to be neutral but belligerent and they have reserved the right to treat them as enemy vessels. Look forward to a bunch of Iranian Revolutionary Guard martyrs to be fish food, real soon now.

In any case, it is always important to understand why opposition to the Hamas is the clearest way to peace -

Hamas's genocide ideology

TO UNDERSTAND the causes of the Gaza conflict, it is essential to understand the Hamas ideology.

Hamas presents itself as an Islamic supremacist movement. Its charter opens with a quote from the Quran: "You [Islamic nation] are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind." [3: 110]

However, whereas many religions and cultures believe that their own traditions represent messages of truth, Hamas believes that this supremacy of Islam obligates them to commit genocide, literally to exterminate millions of people who have different beliefs, including the Jews.

The following are some recent examples of Hamas defining this ideology of genocide, as it applies to Jews:

1 - Quran condemns Jews to extermination

"The Meccan [Quran] chapter entitled 'Jews' or 'Children of Israel' is remarkable... It's about today's Jews, those of our century, and speaks only of extermination and digging graves... This chapter sentences the Jews to extermination before a single Jew existed on earth...

Palestine's blessing is linked to destruction of the center of global corruption [Jews of Israel], the snake's head. When the snake's head of [global] corruption is cut off, here in Palestine, and when the octopus's [Jew's] tentacles are cut off around the world, the real blessing will come with the destruction of the Jews, here in Palestine, and it is one of the splendid real blessings in Palestine." [Palestinian cleric , Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), July 13, 2008]

2 - Jews to face yet another Holocaust

Headline: "Suffering by Fire is Jews' destiny in this world and next"

"... you will taste the punishment of Scorching Fire." [Quran 3:181]

"This [Quran] verse threatens the Jews with the punishment of Fire... the reason for the punishment of Fire is it is fitting retribution for what they have done... but the urgent question is, is it possible that they will have the punishment of Fire in this world, before the great punishment [of Fire in Hell] ... many of the [Islamic] religious leaders believe that the [Jews'] punishment of Fire is in this world, before the next world... therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews." [Sheikh Yunus Al-Astal, Hamas MP, in his regular column in Al-Rissala, (Hamas weekly) March 13, 2008]

It is important to note that the Hamas MP switched words in the last sentence, from the word he used throughout, "harik," which means "fire," to "mahraka" a word from the same root, that is used by Arabic speakers to mean "holocaust."

3 - Muhammad's promise: Jews will be killed

"Regarding the Jews, our business with them is only through bombs and guns... the prophet [Muhammad] promised that we will fight you, with Allah's help, until the tree and stone say: "Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
[Nizar Rayan, Hamas religious and military leader, Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), Jan. 1, 2009. Note: Rayan was killed on Jan. 2, 2009]

4 - Extermination of Jews - good for humanity

In an article promoting the continued use of suicide terror in the official Hamas newspaper:
"We find more than one condemnation and denunciation of the resistance operations and bombings [suicide attacks], carried out by Hamas and the Palestinian resistance branches... [Eventually] everyone will know that we did this only because our Lord commanded so: 'I did it not of my own accord' [Quran] and so that people will know that the extermination of Jews is good for the inhabitants of the worlds."
[Al-Rissala, (Hamas weekly) April 23, 2007]



5 - Kill a Jew go to Heaven
A poster that Hamas posted on its old web site taught that killing a Jew is enough to grant the rewards of Heaven.

Text on Hamas poster: "I will knock on Heaven's doors with the skulls of Jews."
Axe is crashing through the word: "Jews."
[URL on poster, Hamas terror wing: "Ezz Din Al Kassam"]

6 - Resurrection dependent on Muslims killing Jews (1)

Hamas goes even further in its religious packaging of genocide. Hamas teaches that the redemption of all of humanity, the anticipated Islamic "Hour" of Resurrection, will happen only when Muslims are killing Jews and the remaining Jews will be exposed by the trees and stones.

Hamas writes in Article 7 of the Hamas Charter:
"Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet [Muhammad] said: 'The time (of Resurrection) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!'"
[Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6985]

7 - Resurrection dependent on Muslims killing Jews (2)

The Hamas belief that Jews must be killed for redemption to occur is a repeating theme of religious leaders on Palestinian Authority (Fatah) and Hamas TV. The following is one example:

"'The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh, Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!' We must remind our Arab and Muslim nation, its leaders and people, its scholars and students, remind them that Palestine and the Al Aqsa mosque will not be liberated through summits nor by international resolutions, but it will be liberated through the rifle."
[Hamas Spokesman, Dr. Ismail Radwan, PA TV, March 30, 2007]
​

Conclusion:

Given this Hamas ideology of genocide, the essential problem with Hamas is not the missiles and rockets it showers on Israel, but the core belief that killing Jews is a prerequisite to redemption. Hamas's ongoing attempts to kill Jews, which have led to the current Gaza War, are a symptom of the far deeper problem -- the ideology teaching that Allah demands the extermination of Jews.

Israel and the West must create a strategy not only to destroy the terror infrastructures of Hamas, but to ultimately ensure that Jews and the world are safe from this ideology and its consequences.

 

[irishScott]

Maybe GenX put his finger on it by asking, " But what will their answer be when missiles reign down on Israel from Gaza?"

So I ask, what happens if the missiles don't rain down?

After all, everyone knows, including Hamas and Fatah, that the Palestinian missiles are totally ineffective against Israeli military hegemony. More small annoyances to Israel than anything at all effective.

Yet when the world community did nothing to help the Palestinians, those missiles were needed to show the larger world that the Palestinian people and their plight was engaged in a struggle. Especially when surrounding larger Arab were to afraid to challenge Israel in any military way. As an occupied people, the missiles and the suicide bombers at least kept the Palestinians as something of a distant blip on the world radar screen.

But now that the Palestinian plight in Gaza is a huge blip on the world radar screen, Hamas will likely put its best foot forward and let Israel be the jack booted thugs with no reason to be brutal by clamping down on their rocket attacks on Israel.

And to some extent that seems to be already happening, not only with Hamas, but with Hezbollah as well.

lol, I love how you rationalize the loss of innocent life as "but it was just an annoyance" Yeah, you know John Wayne Gacy? He only raped and killed 33 people. Not a big figure in the long run. Why should we have cared about catching him? He was no threat to the country at large.

But wait, IIRC Israel is just a state of Jewish Nazi SS Troopers to you. Literally. So in your mind I guess there are no innocent Israelis. The Irony of the situation being that the Palestinians had your attitude about innocent loss of life, they'd be less worried about inflicting it.

 

[JSt0rm]

lololol remember when bush had the Palestinians vote lololololo remember when hamas won. Moar fail for bush. hahahah. Nuke them all. It's the only way.

 

[Lemon law]

Its one thing for PJIBBERISH to take the position that, "Given this Hamas ideology of genocide, the essential problem with Hamas is not the missiles and rockets it showers on Israel, but the core belief that killing Jews is a prerequisite to redemption. Hamas's ongoing attempts to kill Jews, which have led to the current Gaza War, are a symptom of the far deeper problem -- the ideology teaching that Allah demands the extermination of Jews."

But the real question is that does it have any basis in reality as it allow Israel to pretend to be the victim when they are the big winner?

In my mind, the real question is, Israel will use any excuse to retain the land it illegally gained by conquest and as long as the world keeps buying that Israeli revisionist history we will never have a just mid-east peace. And worse yet for Israel, IMHO, terrorists external to the Palestinian people will ultimately be the ones who will really damage Israel by acquiring and delivering chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear weapons on the Israeli state.

 

[Jaskalas]

It wont matter. Hamas and their apologists wont be happy until Israel completely drops the blockade and weapons flow free into the strip again.

But what will their answer be when missiles reign down on Israel from Gaza? I am sure silence.

They will damn Israel for daring to do anything about it.

 

[PJABBER]

Its one thing for PJIBBERISH to take the position that, "Given this Hamas ideology of genocide, the essential problem with Hamas is not the missiles and rockets it showers on Israel, but the core belief that killing Jews is a prerequisite to redemption. Hamas's ongoing attempts to kill Jews, which have led to the current Gaza War, are a symptom of the far deeper problem -- the ideology teaching that Allah demands the extermination of Jews."

But the real question is that does it have any basis in reality as it allow Israel to pretend to be the victim when they are the big winner?

In my mind, the real question is, Israel will use any excuse to retain the land it illegally gained by conquest and as long as the world keeps buying that Israeli revisionist history we will never have a just mid-east peace. And worse yet for Israel, IMHO, terrorists external to the Palestinian people will ultimately be the ones who will really damage Israel by acquiring and delivering chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear weapons on the Israeli state.
Israel and the West must create a strategy not only to destroy the terror infrastructures of Hamas, but to ultimately ensure that Jews and the world are safe from this ideology and its consequences.

You should learn to use the quote button as you are intermixing the OP quotes I reference and your own commentary, and the message becomes muddled.

I bolded your words and will reply to those comments. The other sentences come from the Palestinian Watch researchers.

Israelis does not have to pretend to be victims. Their losses of life attest to that. The almost daily incursions and attempts at incursions into their sovereign territory by bomb bearing terrorists attest to that. Their history of being invaded by their neighbors attests to that.

The Palestinians are also victims, but they are victims of their own intransigence and virulent anti-Semitic hatred, which just happens to be stoked by an unending series of corrupt and self-serving authoritarian leaders.

Based on history, only the Israelis have ever offered up an olive branch and sought peace. They have been rebuffed at all turns as such an offer was not accompanied by an offer to also literally commit suicide.

What conqueror in war has ever returned land? Israel, exceptionally, has. The situation in Gaza is a direct result of that. Yet you insist they continue to give over territory wrested from the enemies that attacked them so as to foster "peace." How droll.

You are correct in your last paragraph. The development of weapons of mass destruction is beyond the technological and materials capacity of Hamas and Fatah. Theirs is a low tech constant bombardment against civilian populations, until such time as they receive the sophisticated weapons proffered by the likes of Iran.

Iran is dedicated to the destruction of the Israeli State to show they are worthy of their hoped for domination of all of Islam. They want their Shi'a variant and their personal power to gain the upper hand over Suuni adherents and nations and certainly over any of the other manifestations of Islam like Baha'i. They are thus in a contest with the Saudis and other Sunni theocracies. They will likely kill each other once they have eliminated Israel.

Israel recognizes that they face an existential threat by powerful enemies that have thus been kept in abeyance by geographic remoteness. Modern transportation and technologically advanced delivery systems and miniaturization, along with the formation of sock puppet clients like Hamas have brought the enemy to their doorsteps. Literally over a fence line. A fence line you find offensive, but that the Israelis have realized is just a stop gap measure to stop their enemies from killing their kids.

Yes, the existential threat will come from a national power that, beyond Iran, will likely include Syria and maybe a few other states in the area. The delivery systems might be ships or planes or missiles or hand carried by any number of suicidal fanatics. But the origin of the weapons they carry will continue to be traced to an Islamic theocracy.

The only question is when will that strike come? And if the Israelis will strike first rather than when they have to do so out of rubble?

 

[Lemon law]

PJIBBERISH, you, IMHO, are so full of shit its not funny.

As for a more accurate history, surrounding Arab States wrongly attacked Israel in 1948, the Palestinians who had nothing to do with it got unfairly blamed by Israel as a convenient excuse, robbed of their assets and land, tossed into concentration camps, and why should the USA endorse that crap by Israel?

Tell everyone on this forum what would you do if it happened to you? Would you love the fellow who raped and robbed you?

But the again, in 1967&73 Israeli conquests gained land enough to make the Palestinians whole in forming a Palestinian state. Because that land by conquest can never be owned by Israel.

But as a perfect test we must ask, have the good Palestinians in the West Bank gotten any land to form a Palestinians State from Israel??????????? If not why not????????????

Maybe the better explanation is that Israel never intends to give any of that land back and will use any excuse to retain it. Thus the question does become, what will Israel use as an excuse to retain its illegal gains if Hamas quits attacking it? And don't we all think, 37 years is a little long for Israel to keep occupying land it can't ever own?

 

[woolfe9999]

Maybe GenX put his finger on it by asking, " But what will their answer be when missiles reign down on Israel from Gaza?"

So I ask, what happens if the missiles don't rain down?

After all, everyone knows, including Hamas and Fatah, that the Palestinian missiles are totally ineffective against Israeli military hegemony. More small annoyances to Israel than anything at all effective.

Yet when the world community did nothing to help the Palestinians, those missiles were needed to show the larger world that the Palestinian people and their plight was engaged in a struggle. Especially when surrounding larger Arab were to afraid to challenge Israel in any military way. As an occupied people, the missiles and the suicide bombers at least kept the Palestinians as something of a distant blip on the world radar screen.

But now that the Palestinian plight in Gaza is a huge blip on the world radar screen, Hamas will likely put its best foot forward and let Israel be the jack booted thugs with no reason to be brutal by clamping down on their rocket attacks on Israel.

And to some extent that seems to be already happening, not only with Hamas, but with Hezbollah as well.

We know the missiles won't stop, because Hamas has known exactly how effective they are or are not for years, and yet they have continued to fire them. There is no reason to assume they will suddenly stop now. What is their incentive?

As to whether they are effective, it depends on your metric. If it's actual death and destruction, then you're probably right. If it's terror, then yes, they are effective.

- wolf

 

[ayabe]

The best that can probably be hoped for at the moment. Hopefully Turkey will calm down and things will settle.

But you cannot keep a million people in a ghetto where every part of their lives is dictated by others; even things for basic survival like food.

The extreme right-wing orthodox Israeli's are all about segregation even from each other:

Ultra-Orthodox Jews protest jailing parents who refuse school's desegregation

Wingnuts like this on both sides are keeping any real progress from being made.

 

[PJABBER]

PJIBBERISH, you, IMHO, are so full of shit its not funny.

As for a more accurate history, surrounding Arab States wrongly attacked Israel in 1948, the Palestinians who had nothing to do with it got unfairly blamed by Israel as a convenient excuse, robbed of their assets and land, tossed into concentration camps, and why should the USA endorse that crap by Israel?

Tell everyone on this forum what would you do if it happened to you? Would you love the fellow who raped and robbed you?

But the again, in 1967&73 Israeli conquests gained land enough to make the Palestinians whole in forming a Palestinian state. Because that land by conquest can never be owned by Israel.

But as a perfect test we must ask, have the good Palestinians in the West Bank gotten any land to form a Palestinians State from Israel??????????? If not why not????????????

Maybe the better explanation is that Israel never intends to give any of that land back and will use any excuse to retain it. Thus the question does become, what will Israel use as an excuse to retain its illegal gains if Hamas quits attacking it? And don't we all think, 37 years is a little long for Israel to keep occupying land it can't ever own?

Give land back to whom? Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt, it withdrew from Southern Lebanon, it gave Gaza back to the Fatah Palestinian Authority that promptly splintered into those who want to kill Israelis now versus those who would wait a while to build up strength.

Concentration camps? Are you referring to those that the Egyptians, Lebanese, Syrians and the Jordanians had to contain tens of thousands of Palestinians? Israeli concentration camps not found, though the Israelis most certainly do imprison people, including Palestinian terrorists.

I posted the following historical summation before, maybe even several times. Obviously you do not read history. Maybe other readers will, even if just to be informed about how complex the situation has been in that tiny corner of the world and how much misery has ensued and who has done what to whom.

Israel and Palestine - A Brief History - Part 1

History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict since the Oslo Accords

As the author notes, the temptation, one that you indulge in, is to be selective in the choice of facts that are presented. You perfectly fit this profile as you neither qualify your comments and opinions nor put them into a realistic context. Shame on you, fanboi! :awe:

History, and different perceptions of history, are perhaps the most important factors in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Accounts of history, interpreting history in different ways, are used to justify claims and to negate claims, to vilify the enemy and to glorify "our own" side. Dozens of accounts have been written. Most of the accounts on the Web are intended to convince rather than to inform.

This very brief account is intended as a balanced overview and introduction to Palestinian and Israeli history, and the history of the conflict. It is unlikely that anyone has written or will write an "objective" and definitive summary that would be accepted by everyone, but it is hoped that this document will provide a fair introduction.

It would be wrong to try to use this history to determine "who is right," though many "histories" have certainly been written by partisans of either side, with precisely that purpose in mind. Those who are interested in advocacy, in collecting "points" for their side, cannot find the truth except by accident. If they find it, and it is inconvenient, they will bury it again. This account intends to inform, and nothing more. Two separate documents explain how I think we should gather facts and learn about the conflict, and the importance of words in making Middle East history, as well as in understanding it. A timeline provides details of many events not discussed in this history, and source documents provide additional background. Serious students will also refer to the bibliography for more information and different viewpoints, and will always seek out primary source documents to verify whatever claims are made about those documents or about quotes from those documents.

 

[Lemon law]

Sorry PJIBBERISH, I don't buy your links, BFD you don't buy my version either, but at the end of the day, you and I will not be the deciders, and the larger world will.

The rest of the world is largely invested in a just mid-east peace, and when its clear Israel is more interested in retaining its land illegally gained by conquest than any just mid-east peace, a tipping point for Israel may be inevitable.

As OP on this thread, I asked but one question, will these small Israeli concessions be enough to defuse the crisis, or is it far too little too late to forestall the new world wide questioning of Israeli policy?

 

[chucky2]

lololol remember when bush had the Palestinians vote lololololo remember when hamas won. Moar fail for bush. hahahah. Nuke them all. It's the only way.

Why would that be fail for Bush? There's nothing wrong with a non-rigged election happening. As long as there was no fraud, or, not enough to sway the election in a meaningful manner, then it should be accepted.

Now, at that point, the people have knowingly elected Hamas, so the people become responsible for what happens to them when Hamas goes and does/allows something dumbf*ck.

Really I don't see the problem with Hamas being elected....

Chuck

 

[PJABBER]

Sorry PJIBBERISH, I don't buy your links, BFD you don't buy my version either, but at the end of the day, you and I will not be the deciders, and the larger world will.

I have never seen you post any links to a comprehensive history of the area, while I have, multiple times and from multiple sources. The above links are quite comprehensive while also being concise. Sorry that you don't appreciate my effort to present an unbiased reference.

The rest of the world is largely invested in a just mid-east peace, and when its clear Israel is more interested in retaining its land illegally gained by conquest than any just mid-east peace, a tipping point for Israel may be inevitable.

Sorry, most of the world and certainly most of the world's governments simply don't care about either the Israelis or the Palestinians. They are but useful foils to point at in a hope that diverting attention in that direction will reduce the chance that fingers will be pointed elsewhere, where especially bad abuses are the order of the day.

Now, if you introduce OIL into the discussion, then we have interest that reaches from the US to China.

As OP on this thread, I asked but one question, will these small Israeli concessions be enough to defuse the crisis, or is it far too little too late to forestall the new world wide questioning of Israeli policy?

Seriously, who cares? The Mid-East is overdue for a war for many reasons and small concessions on one side (Israeli) vs. no concessions on the other are just delays to a more decisive series of actions. It is likely just going to be another battle between repressive Islamic theocracy and liberal Western and less liberal Asiatic cultures. It will not have a resolution unless someone decides it is time to bring out the WMDs and then we will have ourselves a real cluster.

My advice to the players? Don't back Israel into a corner. They tend to react unpleasantly. If you do want to stir the pot, don't get in between the various eager parties when the shit hits the fan.

My personal position is clear. I defend any nation that follows democratic, liberal and secular principles. Everyone else, IMO, has to work much harder to go down that freedom road and they better get to it, spit spot. :awe:

 

[Lemon law]

PJIBBERISH says, "My personal position is clear. I defend any nation that follows democratic, liberal and secular principles. Everyone else, IMO, has to work much harder to go down that freedom road and they better get to it, spit spot"

Well color me on your side, but strange its my USA values that lead me not to support Israel.

We in the USA believe in equal rights for all, separation of Church and State, and integration of the educational systems for all.

Israel believes in first class citizenship for only Jews, some second class citizenship for Arabs, and total third or fourth class heritage based citizenship for Palestinians in the land of their own birth. Israel believes in a totally non integrated separate and not equal educational system, and in almost every way, Israel apartheid views are totally incompatible with the US or any American values.

But point granted Arab values in the region are not stellar either, but at the end of the day its zero for Israel to brag about. Worse yet, Iran treats it Jews far better than Israel treats its Palestinians, if you want to realize how low Israel has gone.

Tell us all again, PJIBBERISH, how Israel remotely resembles US values. I double dog dare you to defend the indefeasible!

But then again, when we were, in the USA, a slave holding nation, you might find an Israeli equivalent.