Israel cozeying up to the Russians to spite Obama

[Lemon law]

That other Lieberman, Netanyuhu's foreign minister is in Russia and seeming seeking their help because Obama is putting the pressure on Israel to quit dragging their feet on a Palestinian State or halting West Bank settlement. And has already met with Putin and is scheduled to meet with a pile of other Russian officials

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06.../14levy.html?ref=world

Something that may be none too smart as Cuba, Iran, Iraq, and Noreiga all learned the hard way, the first commandment after taking massive US aid is to never even think about cozening up to the Russians. Uncle Sammy has a long history of following that betrayal up with a very long term snit, either against the country as a whole, or just the individual miscreant leader who will the forfeit.

In related news, Netanyuhu just endorsed a Palestinian state, but on terms so one sided, its unlikely to be taken seriously. But I will cover that in another thread.

 

[Tab3076]

That would be a huge 180 on Isrealis' part but what does Russia have to gain from this besides pissing off the United States?

EDIT : Kind of odd that Isreali would work with Russia in the first place, considering they've been helping out Iran with arms and their nuclear reactor.

 

[Dari]

And Israel has been cosying up with China for years as well (they even made a fighter plane together, using American IP, no doubt). They need allies. I wouldn't trust them too much.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Tab3076
Kind of odd that Isreali would work with Russia in the first place, considering they've been helping out Iran with arms and their nuclear reactor.

I wonder how much of the ordinance used against Israel in past wars / terrorism was sold to their enemies by Russia and friends.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: Dari
And Israel has been cosying up with China for years as well (they even made a fighter plane together, using American IP, no doubt). They need allies. I wouldn't trust them too much.

They're certainly a two-faced ally of the US, as history has shown. Let them bite the hand that feeds them.

 

[Lemon law]

I have to say, Tab3076 also asks a relevant question in "but what does Russia have to gain from this besides pissing off the United States?"

The answer that springs to mind is a pile of Intel on US defense secrets and an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the mid-east, at the underbelly of Europe, and not that far North from the productive Arab oil centers.

 

[Zorba]

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Dari
And Israel has been cosying up with China for years as well (they even made a fighter plane together, using American IP, no doubt). They need allies. I wouldn't trust them too much.

They're certainly a two-faced ally of the US, as history has shown. Let them bite the hand that feeds them.

 

[Tab3076]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Tab3076
Kind of odd that Isreali would work with Russia in the first place, considering they've been helping out Iran with arms and their nuclear reactor.

I wonder how much of the ordinance used against Israel in past wars / terrorism was sold to their enemies by Russia and friends.

I don't know about the past but for the last few years Russia has been involved heavily.

 

[bdude]

Look out for number one.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Dari
And Israel has been cosying up with China for years as well (they even made a fighter plane together, using American IP, no doubt). They need allies. I wouldn't trust them too much.

They're certainly a two-faced ally of the US, as history has shown. Let them bite the hand that feeds them.

Israel has always been concerned about itself first.

The same is true with almost any country in the world. The US is no exception. We have stuck our nose/fingers into countries bcause it suited our political/economic goals.

 

[brandonb]

Its time to drop the foreign aid we send to Israel.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Dari
And Israel has been cosying up with China for years as well (they even made a fighter plane together, using American IP, no doubt). They need allies. I wouldn't trust them too much.

They're certainly a two-faced ally of the US, as history has shown. Let them bite the hand that feeds them.

Israel has always been concerned about itself first.

The same is true with almost any country in the world. The US is no exception. We have stuck our nose/fingers into countries bcause it suited our political/economic goals.

Then if she is getting close to our enemies and sharing secrets, we should cut her ass loose.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Dari
And Israel has been cosying up with China for years as well (they even made a fighter plane together, using American IP, no doubt). They need allies. I wouldn't trust them too much.

They're certainly a two-faced ally of the US, as history has shown. Let them bite the hand that feeds them.

Israel has always been concerned about itself first.

The same is true with almost any country in the world. The US is no exception. We have stuck our nose/fingers into countries bcause it suited our political/economic goals.

Then if she is getting close to our enemies and sharing secrets, we should cut her ass loose.

Doesn't quite work that way.

Of course, this is the first time the US has ever cozied up too much to a group for its self-interest, supporting some things that were wrong, and had that come back to bite it later.

If we'd 'do the right thing' more often, we'd have a lot fewer problems IMO.

The right thing here is to press for a situation as fair as possible to both Israle and Palestinians - which might look very pro-Palestinian because of the huge power gap.

But down the road, Israel wouldn't have that much to really resent, the Palestinians would have reason to appreciate it and have better relations with us, and it's cut the Russians off.

But it wouldn't serve the short-term, 'who cares about the Palestinians' approach recogzing that right now we have more to gain from Israel.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Dari
And Israel has been cosying up with China for years as well (they even made a fighter plane together, using American IP, no doubt). They need allies. I wouldn't trust them too much.

They're certainly a two-faced ally of the US, as history has shown. Let them bite the hand that feeds them.

Israel has always been concerned about itself first.

The same is true with almost any country in the world. The US is no exception. We have stuck our nose/fingers into countries bcause it suited our political/economic goals.

Then if she is getting close to our enemies and sharing secrets, we should cut her ass loose.

Realize that cutting her loose willreduce influence that we have in that region. It also may encourage the Arab countries that we supply aid to as a"peace balance" to have some ideas of starting trouble.

Cut Israel aid and also reduce aid to Egypt, Saudi, Jordan and others that aid was given as a reward for peace and/or reduced beligerency.

 

[Lemon law]

All of us are seemingly blind to what Israel probably wants that tactic to say, which is listen Smarty pants Obama, if you won't give us unconditional support, we will flirt with other countries to make you jealous and yearn to have us back as your number one.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Dari
And Israel has been cosying up with China for years as well (they even made a fighter plane together, using American IP, no doubt). They need allies. I wouldn't trust them too much.

They're certainly a two-faced ally of the US, as history has shown. Let them bite the hand that feeds them.

Israel has always been concerned about itself first.

The same is true with almost any country in the world. The US is no exception. We have stuck our nose/fingers into countries bcause it suited our political/economic goals.

Then if she is getting close to our enemies and sharing secrets, we should cut her ass loose.

Realize that cutting her loose willreduce influence that we have in that region. It also may encourage the Arab countries that we supply aid to as a"peace balance" to have some ideas of starting trouble.

Cut Israel aid and also reduce aid to Egypt, Saudi, Jordan and others that aid was given as a reward for peace and/or reduced beligerency.

The VAST MAJORITY of those 'pro-American' governments need us far more than we need them. Cutting Israel loose will only bring us closer to the Arab ones, possible even Iran, with Israel running to India, China and Russia for diplomatic and military support. Hence, it'll tip the balance to the Arabs massively, which is bad in and of itself.

Most of those countries in the region, including Israel, are very fragile.

 

[Lemon law]

I suspect Common Courtesy is wrong in saying "Realize that cutting her loose willreduce influence that we have in that region. It also may encourage the Arab countries that we supply aid to as a"peace balance" to have some ideas of starting trouble.

Cut Israel aid and also reduce aid to Egypt, Saudi, Jordan and others that aid was given as a reward for peace and/or reduced beligerency."

Even cutting Israel lose will not reduce Israeli military hegemony over the region for years. But keeping up the foreign aid to various Arab countries in the region with the condition they not attack Israel, would send that message to Israel, loud and clear (1) Israel can't afford any wars of attrition because there is no resupply. (2) Israel better get to the peace table with some real concessions before their military hegemony ends.

 

[RY62]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Dari
And Israel has been cosying up with China for years as well (they even made a fighter plane together, using American IP, no doubt). They need allies. I wouldn't trust them too much.

They're certainly a two-faced ally of the US, as history has shown. Let them bite the hand that feeds them.

Israel has always been concerned about itself first.

The same is true with almost any country in the world. The US is no exception. We have stuck our nose/fingers into countries bcause it suited our political/economic goals.

Then if she is getting close to our enemies and sharing secrets, we should cut her ass loose.

Which enemies are you talking about? Is Russia our enemy? Are the Chinese our enemies?

I've got to get up to speed here since I don't consider Russia or China as my enemy. I'm still stuck on the radical Islamists, who attacked, us being the enemy.

If Israel is no longer comfortable that the US is going to be a strong ally they would be wise to look for new allies. They aren't exactly in a position to just wait and see what's going to happen and I can't blame them if they don't consider the current US administration to be a strong ally.

Besides, the Russian would probably be in a better position than the US to broker agreements in the region.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I suspect Common Courtesy is wrong in saying "Realize that cutting her loose willreduce influence that we have in that region. It also may encourage the Arab countries that we supply aid to as a"peace balance" to have some ideas of starting trouble.

Cut Israel aid and also reduce aid to Egypt, Saudi, Jordan and others that aid was given as a reward for peace and/or reduced beligerency."

Even cutting Israel lose will not reduce Israeli military hegemony over the region for years. But keeping up the foreign aid to various Arab countries in the region with the condition they not attack Israel, would send that message to Israel, loud and clear (1) Israel can't afford any wars of attrition because there is no resupply. (2) Israel better get to the peace table with some real concessions before their military hegemony ends.

The advantage that Israel may have militarily will not last in a conflict that includes those countries that the US has supplied weapons to over the past 10-15 years.

And within all of those countries; the Islamic "radicalism" is being kept in check by the government; not by the people.

Previously those countries had promised to leave Israel alone and then changed their minds (not even a change of government). There are still internal pressures within those countries to exterminate Israel.

The best would be to start a reduction of aid percentage wise across the board - not playing favorites.

 

[Lemon law]

Common Courtesy is missing something by saying, " The best would be to start a reduction of aid percentage wise across the board - not playing favorites."

The point is that the USA has been blatantly favoring Israel for the past 42 years, and why should we reduce aid to Arab countries who have played ball with us, because we reduce Israeli aid because they defy us? That makes zero sense to punish Arabs for the sins of the Israelis?

As for Islamic radicalism, our unconditional support of Israeli radicalism and repression is the number one factor in fueling that Islamic radicalism.

 

[IGBT]

they may as well since the US is going to be in the prostrate position for the foreseeable future due submissive leadership.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Israel and Russia. That's a match made in hell. Russia is even more two-faced than the US is.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Common Courtesy is missing something by saying, " The best would be to start a reduction of aid percentage wise across the board - not playing favorites."

The point is that the USA has been blatantly favoring Israel for the past 42 years, and why should we reduce aid to Arab countries who have played ball with us, because we reduce Israeli aid because they defy us? That makes zero sense to punish Arabs for the sins of the Israelis?

As for Islamic radicalism, our unconditional support of Israeli radicalism and repression is the number one factor in fueling that Islamic radicalism.

aid was increased considerably to the other Arab nations as a percieved counterbalance to what Israel was receiving.

Cut everyone.

Israel was favored because her opponents were being supported by the Soviets.
And she was still the little democracy in the ME conflict.
And she still is being attacked by proxies.

Aid is not an obligation - no matter what the receivers want to think.

 

[Lemon law]

I do not think Common Courtesy is totally correct in saying, " aid was increased considerably to the other Arab nations as a percieved counterbalance to what Israel was receiving.

Cut everyone.

Israel was favored because her opponents were being supported by the Soviets.
And she was still the little democracy in the ME conflict.
And she still is being attacked by proxies.

Aid is not an obligation - no matter what the receivers want to think."

Historically, aid to Egypt was increased to get it to sign onto the camp David Peace Process and to recognize the State of Israel. And the same is basically true of other Arab nations who have all played ball with the USA ever since. Common Courtesy still has not explained why we should cut aid to Arab nations because Israelis dragging its feet on
a peace deal while playing footsie with the Russians. Just because Israel always got the lions share of any US aid in the form of free armaments, the very armaments that has allowed Israel to become the dominant military power in the region, and thus empowering Israel to thumb its nose at everyone else, and drag their feet on any peace deals.
If there was a real balance of power in the mid-east, it would be more in Israeli interests to make a just peace, until then, Israel has little incentive to get to the negotiating table because it can hide behind its military.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Israel has had no problems with peace deals for Arab states that were willing for peace.
There have been only two neighbors that were willing and those have been honored.

Her problems are with the Arab states that still are at a declared war condition; support attacks against Israel and/or act as sponsors for attacks.


Egypt was rewarded for the peace deal - part was complaining about how much Israel was receiving and that it created an imbalnace within the region.

Now you are proposing to again alter that balance.
By proportionaly reducing aid across the board; that balance is maintained.