Israel Caves Under Pressure; Gaza Blockade Neutered

[EagleKeeper]

Maybe if the Arabs w/ the support of the Palestinians had not tried an illegal land grab the Palestinians would not be in the fix that they are in. But then you are unable to hold the Palestinians responsible for their actions.

And your "illegal" land grab of Israel in '67 & '73 was the result of the Arabs again attempting an illegal land grab. But you are again unable to fault them for that.

So, even though the Arabs triggered, expanded and the Palestinians continue the problem with the backing of the Arabs; you feel that Israel should have to resolve the problem on their own alone.

Typical

 

[Lemon law]

Lets us examine the EagleKeeper first part of a statement sentence, namely, "Maybe if the Arabs w/ the support of the Palestinians had not tried an illegal land grab."

Notice how SMOOTHLY Eaglekeeper transferred blame from the surrounding Arab states with standing armies to the unarmed Palestinians that did little or nothing to cause or join the Arab States. But maybe point granted, some few Palestinians did fight on the Arab side. But certainly not all. Yet Israel uses this for a justification to punish ALL Palestinians. And lets do the math, to join the Arab cause in 1948 and be a military asset, a Palestinian would have to be at least 15 years old in 1948, if any of those guilty Palestinians are still alive today, they would be at least 77 years old today. Yet Israel still imprisons and makes Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank into third class citizens as a
kind of hereditary guilt, punishing children, grandchildren, and great grand children for the possible sins of their parents.

If any of you Americans believe those are American values you could support, please report to your nearest mental health clinic because you are in need of some real therapy.

 

[EagleKeeper]

• Some Palestinians fought along side the Arabs.
  
• Many ran away based on the Arab states recommendations to get out of the way until Israel was destroyed and then come back for the pickings.
  
• Some stayed in Israel proper and prospered as Israel succeeded and grew.

Those in #3 are not attacking Israel and demanding the right of return.
Those in #1 and #2 are. Coincidences? Again rewarding the loser and penalizing the victor - this has been the mantra of the Palestinian leadership and supporters all along. Had the roles been reversed; there would never be such an issue - there would not be an Israel tocome back to.

 

[Lemon law]

The giant lie in this Eaglekeeper post is, " * Some stayed in Israel proper and prospered as Israel succeeded and grew."

Wrong wrong and wrong, that may have applied to a some Arabs, but all Palestinians who stayed and maybe prospered for a few years after 1948, were all dispossessed by Israel by 1954 as Israel passed the needed enabling legislation. Then Israel grabbed their land and herded them mainly to Gaza, although some were chased into Syria.

Under Israeli law, Palestinians have no human rights. At least some Arabs have rights in Israel, but Palestinians, no.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Great. Now maybe International attention can be turned on Hamas when they fire missiles instead? Except that won't happen because the very same people who are so "outraged" when Israel tries to prevent missiles and arms from coming into Hamas's possession in the first place turn a blind eye when Hamas starts launching those same missiles at innocent Israeli civilians. But that's the concerned International hypocrites for you.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The giant lie in this Eaglekeeper post is, " * Some stayed in Israel proper and prospered as Israel succeeded and grew."

Wrong wrong and wrong, that may have applied to a some Arabs, but all Palestinians who stayed and maybe prospered for a few years after 1948, were all dispossessed by Israel by 1954 as Israel passed the needed enabling legislation. Then Israel grabbed their land and herded them mainly to Gaza, although some were chased into Syria.
Under Israeli law, Palestinians have no human rights. At least some Arabs have rights in Israel, but Palestinians, no.

Given what you stated in bold - then there would be no Palestinians/Arabs living in Israel after 1954. The Palestinians are Arabs and not all left Israel. How are you delineating the difference between Arabs & Palestinians?

If so, then how do you account for the 1M+ Arabs/Palestinians that live within Israel proper. When did they all immigrate back?

 

[Lemon law]

Arabs do not equal Palestinians. There are perhaps 1.5 million plus rabs living in Israel with almost first class citizenship. But almost no Palestinians. Most Palestinians are exiled to the West Bank and Gaza and have no real rights. Its waas done with specific Israeli legislation that denied Palestinians of having any legal rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

 

[EagleKeeper]

Arabs do not equal Palestinians. There are perhaps 1.5 million plus Arabs living in Israel with almost first class citizenship. But almost no Palestinians. Most Palestinians are exiled to the West Bank and Gaza and have no real rights. Its was done with specific Israeli legislation that denied Palestinians of having any legal rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

So when Israel was created, the Palestinians that did live there were kicked out and Arabs imported?

More than likely; those Arabs that lived outside Israel proper but within the Palestine Mandate borders were then classified as Palestinians and not considered to be citizens of Israel in any shape or form. After all, they belonged to the Arab Palestine - not part of Israel. Those that stayed within Israeli borders are classified differently. Israeli Arabs who were Arabs that lived in Palestine but did not dessert Israel.

 

[Lemon law]

Great. Now maybe International attention can be turned on Hamas when they fire missiles instead? Except that won't happen because the very same people who are so "outraged" when Israel tries to prevent missiles and arms from coming into Hamas's possession in the first place turn a blind eye when Hamas starts launching those same missiles at innocent Israeli civilians. But that's the concerned International hypocrites for you.

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Well TLC, this has already been addressed on prior threads, but there are two ways of looking at the terrorism question. Are terrorists going after Israel for no reason or are terrorists going after Israel because Israel stole Palestinian land? I can guess your answer, but does it matter? Many people buy the Israel is innocent version, other buy the Israel is a thief version, and probably the bulk concludes its much of both. And the other bottom line becomes, Israel has been subjected to international terrorism directed against it for 62 out of 62 years of its existence, and at the rate at which Israel is earning the hatreds of its neighbors, those attacks will keep coming without respite. And no, Hamas is not the greatest threat to Israel, in fact its almost the smallest least well armed of any.

The other way to look at the problem is that we cannot change the past, so how do we restore a balance of fairness that can lead to a just final peace? That will allow Israel to live in peace with its neighbors? And what do we do with the 3 million ++ Palestinians confined to Gaza and the West Bank who live in some total limbo of no human rights. And since Israel cannot own, retain, or claim, the lands illegally obtained after the 1967&73 wars, why are we tolerating Israeli still squatting on those lands 37 years later?

 

[nageov3t]

why are we tolerating Israeli still squatting on those lands 37 years later?

how soon can we be expecting you to give up your house to a native american family and move back to europe?

 

[EagleKeeper]

The terror threats did not start coming until after the Arabs lost the '73 war and the Arab sponsors switched tactics to use the Palestinians as cannon fodder.
For the first 25 years; Israel had the threat of a nation state attacking them. Then the threat changed over to a terrorist sponsored state

 

[Lemon law]

The terror threats did not start coming until after the Arabs lost the '73 war and the Arab sponsors switched tactics to use the Palestinians as cannon fodder.
For the first 25 years; Israel had the threat of a nation state attacking them. Then the threat changed over to a terrorist sponsored state

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Not quite true, the PLO was already attacking Israel before the 1973 war, and things like the attacks of the Israeli Olympic team also demonstrates other groups other than the PLO were also independently targeting Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization

And its my guess that total external to Israel groups like Al-Quida will become the greatest terrorist threats to Israel. If nothing else, as long as the Arab man on the street is daily reminded why they hate Israel, the terrorist funding will be assured.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Granted; there were problems between '67 and '73; Much of the PLO issues w/ respect to Arafat started after the PLO was foolishly (IMHO) recognized.

The Arabs were badly spanked after '67 which probably sparked the terror support. Up to that point; there was the hope of a Pan Arab state with Russian backing.

 

[EagleKeeper]

And its my guess that total external to Israel groups like Al-Quida will become the greatest terrorist threats to Israel. If nothing else, as long as the Arab man on the street is daily reminded why they hate Israel, the terrorist funding will be assured.

This I will agree with whole heartly.

The sponsors will have to be targeted and/or convinced that it is not in their best interests (health/political) to continue to encourage the use of the Palestinians as cannon fodder for their own egos!

 

[Lemon law]

This I will agree with whole heartly.

The sponsors will have to be targeted and/or convinced that it is not in their best interests (health/political) to continue to encourage the use of the Palestinians as cannon fodder for their own egos!

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Well at least you agree that external international terrorism is a big danger to Israel. At least that some progress.

Then why is the rest of the world kicking all these Palestinians can issues further down the road. In another 10 years we will have 4++ million Palestinians with 3 rd class rights residing in Gaza and the West Bank, maybe 2+ million Arabs with almost first class citizenship rights, and the only small Israeli Jewish population growth will be among bat shit crazy Israeli settler parties and bat shit crazy Israeli orthodox Jews who will want to expel the 2 million Arabs.

 

[Throckmorton]

What kind of bizarro-world do we live in where it was EVER alright for Israel to blockade wheelchairs and chocolate? Imagine if ANY other country was conducting a blockade like that on an entire nation/ethnicity.

Americans would be outraged if it was England blockading wheelchairs and building material from Ireland.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

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Well TLC, this has already been addressed on prior threads, but there are two ways of looking at the terrorism question. Are terrorists going after Israel for no reason or are terrorists going after Israel because Israel stole Palestinian land? I can guess your answer, but does it matter? Many people buy the Israel is innocent version, other buy the Israel is a thief version, and probably the bulk concludes its much of both. And the other bottom line becomes, Israel has been subjected to international terrorism directed against it for 62 out of 62 years of its existence, and at the rate at which Israel is earning the hatreds of its neighbors, those attacks will keep coming without respite. And no, Hamas is not the greatest threat to Israel, in fact its almost the smallest least well armed of any.

The other way to look at the problem is that we cannot change the past, so how do we restore a balance of fairness that can lead to a just final peace? That will allow Israel to live in peace with its neighbors? And what do we do with the 3 million ++ Palestinians confined to Gaza and the West Bank who live in some total limbo of no human rights. And since Israel cannot own, retain, or claim, the lands illegally obtained after the 1967&73 wars, why are we tolerating Israeli still squatting on those lands 37 years later?

LL, P&N's resident underthinker. 'Palestinians = oppressed. Israel/West = oppressors.'

There is not just two ways of looking at this, as has been addressed in an untold number of threads on the subject. It's far more complex than you imply. But you seem to want to pretend it's just that simple and disregard everything else. If you actually can't bother to address the other multitude of considerations regarding this issue then don't bother responding on the subject in the first place because you end up looking like nothing more than a Palestinian fanboy with a cockeyed and simple-minded viewpoint.

 

[Lemon law]

TLC points out, "There is not just two ways of looking at this, as has been addressed in an untold number of threads on the subject. It's far more complex than you imply. But you seem to want to pretend it's just that simple and disregard everything else. If you actually can't bother to address the other multitude of considerations regarding this issue then don't bother responding on the subject in the first place because you end up looking like nothing more than a Palestinian fanboy with a cockeyed and simple-minded viewpoint. "
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I agree that the issues are very complex, and can be looked at from many view points, but TLC, you, instead of writing of those complex issue, manage to be a total proIsraeli oversimplify fan boy who does not practice what he preaches. Nor, IMHO, have your prior predictions turned out very well.

The other thing to point out, is that Israel promised its list of banned items in the Gaza blockade last Monday, and still has not made the list public.

 

[Pulsar]

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Well TLC, this has already been addressed on prior threads, but there are two ways of looking at the terrorism question. Are terrorists going after Israel for no reason or are terrorists going after Israel because Israel stole Palestinian land? I can guess your answer, but does it matter? Many people buy the Israel is innocent version, other buy the Israel is a thief version, and probably the bulk concludes its much of both. And the other bottom line becomes, Israel has been subjected to international terrorism directed against it for 62 out of 62 years of its existence, and at the rate at which Israel is earning the hatreds of its neighbors, those attacks will keep coming without respite. And no, Hamas is not the greatest threat to Israel, in fact its almost the smallest least well armed of any.

The other way to look at the problem is that we cannot change the past, so how do we restore a balance of fairness that can lead to a just final peace? That will allow Israel to live in peace with its neighbors? And what do we do with the 3 million ++ Palestinians confined to Gaza and the West Bank who live in some total limbo of no human rights. And since Israel cannot own, retain, or claim, the lands illegally obtained after the 1967&73 wars, why are we tolerating Israeli still squatting on those lands 37 years later?

So obviously, the problem is that Israel EXISTS, if the terrorist actions started right away. In which case, Israeli's have been and ARE right to fear for thier existence.

 

[Pulsar]

LL, P&N's resident underthinker. 'Palestinians = oppressed. Israel/West = oppressors.'

There is not just two ways of looking at this, as has been addressed in an untold number of threads on the subject. It's far more complex than you imply. But you seem to want to pretend it's just that simple and disregard everything else. If you actually can't bother to address the other multitude of considerations regarding this issue then don't bother responding on the subject in the first place because you end up looking like nothing more than a Palestinian fanboy with a cockeyed and simple-minded viewpoint.

Has he ever been anything else?

 

[Lemon law]

Has he ever been anything else?

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Thank you Pulsar for clarifying your views and blaming me for all Mid-east problems.

I am merely pointing out that Israel is further away from being accepted in the mid-east when they started in 1948. And if you think anyone anywhere takes their marching orders from me, you are crazy.

But since you are such a super genius Pulsar, tell this forum how Israel can find a lasting peace in the mid-east in the future? But realize at the same time your fantasies may not be shared by hundred's of millions of people, and in fact the majority of the world.

Don't worry about a little ole me deflating your fantasies, you better worry about what the rest of the world thinks.

 

[Tom]

Maybe if the Arabs w/ the support of the Palestinians had not tried an illegal land grab the Palestinians would not be in the fix that they are in. But then you are unable to hold the Palestinians responsible for their actions.

And your "illegal" land grab of Israel in '67 & '73 was the result of the Arabs again attempting an illegal land grab. But you are again unable to fault them for that.

So, even though the Arabs triggered, expanded and the Palestinians continue the problem with the backing of the Arabs; you feel that Israel should have to resolve the problem on their own alone.

Typical

when a war is won you can follow the ww1 model, punishing the losers which leads to more conflict; or the ww2 model where you help your enemies rebuild and become your friends.

so far Israel has mostly been mucking about like the allies did after ww1.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

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Thank you Pulsar for clarifying your views and blaming me for all Mid-east problems.

I am merely pointing out that Israel is further away from being accepted in the mid-east when they started in 1948. And if you think anyone anywhere takes their marching orders from me, you are crazy.

But since you are such a super genius Pulsar, tell this forum how Israel can find a lasting peace in the mid-east in the future? But realize at the same time your fantasies may not be shared by hundred's of millions of people, and in fact the majority of the world.

Don't worry about a little ole me deflating your fantasies, you better worry about what the rest of the world thinks.

It's pretty simple, actually: neither side will compromise with the other on anything important (ie, Jerusalem), so nobody will be happy until there is a war that wipes out one side (Israelis or Arabs/Persians). Yes, I think there will eventually be a huge war in the Middle East, at least compared to the current small-scale wars and skirmishes that are constantly going on there now. And I bet this is how it's going to happen:

Iran will get close enough to making a bomb (or make one) to actually be a major threat to Israel.

Israel will attack Iran's nuclear facilities.

Iran will cry wolf to its Arab neighbors, continuing its insistence that Imadinnerjacket and Khameini just want nuclear power for electricity.

Finally, all of the Middle East will gang up on Israel. It will be a bloody war, and eventually Israel will be overcome by sheer numbers and resort to nukes or other large-scale destruction.


Ta-da! Peace in the middle east.

 

[nageov3t]

It's pretty simple, actually: neither side will compromise with the other on anything important (ie, Jerusalem), so nobody will be happy until there is a war that wipes out one side (Israelis or Arabs/Persians). Yes, I think there will eventually be a huge war in the Middle East, at least compared to the current small-scale wars and skirmishes that are constantly going on there now. And I bet this is how it's going to happen:

Iran will get close enough to making a bomb (or make one) to actually be a major threat to Israel.

Israel will attack Iran's nuclear facilities.

Iran will cry wolf to its Arab neighbors, continuing its insistence that Imadinnerjacket and Khameini just want nuclear power for electricity.

Finally, all of the Middle East will gang up on Israel. It will be a bloody war, and eventually Israel will be overcome by sheer numbers and resort to nukes or other large-scale destruction.


Ta-da! Peace in the middle east.

idk... I think that there's a strong argument to be made for the fact that, as much as Israel doesn't want Iran to have a nuke, every single other ME country doesn't want Iran to have a nuke more.

if Israel bombed Iranian nuclear facilities, I think the other ME countries (except perhaps Syria and Lebanon) would do a lot of harrumphing and be secretly happy behind closed doors and sit on the sidelines in any conflict.

 

[EagleKeeper]

when a war is won you can follow the ww1 model, punishing the losers which leads to more conflict; or the ww2 model where you help your enemies rebuild and become your friends.

so far Israel has mostly been mucking about like the allies did after ww1.

Israel has held off from winning the war because the UN and other Arab/Palestine supporters have intervened to prevent an actual defeat.

If the war against the Arabs and/or Palestine militants were actually fought to a conclusion; then the WWII scenario could be followed.

However, without destroying the military power of the enemy; an existing stalemate occurs causing death/misery/fear and hardships to both sides.

However a government that does not want to be friends will not cooperate (see the Soviets after WWII). They were not our enemies however, what did our aid provide. 40 years of problems and proxy wars throughout the world and a legacy still the lingers